Darth Vader is the hero

[Veldt Falsetto]

Aye, Lucas is a good director and when it comes to ideas and film grammar he's got it all down

I think it's just putting those ideas across he's gotten a little confused about, seriously I do think that most of what I said about the perspective of all of the films being a little off-kilter and weird is what he was aiming for but in order to get a cohesive story in a 2 hour slot he couldn't add all the little bits and pieces of film and so had to strip away a bunch from all 6 of those films.

Though if my theory is right then I figure he had about an hour of footage of Jar Jar Binks being somewhat more important than he is...maybe becoming the leader of whatever race he was and adding in some bizzare reference to water ewoks or something but yeah...the less about that the better I guess

I'm not even sure he's that good of a director anymore. I just think of him as a sweet idea-man. That underwater city with the water ewoks was pretty damn cool, but it was pointless in the sense of the plot. The space battles and the lightsaber battles are really cool, but they don't do anything to make the movie better. There is no drama, or sense of what is actually happening other than shit is exploding. Those are tasks the director should be taking on in his film: to make sure the audience is captured with more than some shining lights.

That depends on what his role as a director entails or how he personally interprets it. Technically a director should only have a hand in the cinematography, where the producer is the driving force behind the creativity, though I know most directors in hollywood like to have a hand in writing, producing and directing, how much of all 6 films are his I don't know.

 

[isometry]

Vader has no "tragic fall" because he was never a hero. He went from being a clueless kid in episode 1, to a creepy jerk that slaughters sand people in episode 2, to a senseless murderer in part 3.

He was a jedi as of Episode 2 and while it is not shown, there is mention of heroic deeds that he had done. They didn't include it because no one cares about those things. They just care that Anakin is now a well-respected jedi, who is falling to his emotions and eventually to the dark side. No one complained about Sophocles' Oedipus Rex stating that Oedipus was a king and had done things in the past that established his greatness, nor did they complain about King Lear's life as a king being only stated. People seem to hate Star Wars just because it's Star Wars and it's cool to make fun of it these days.

Additionally, his slaughter of the sand people in episode 2 and his murder of the jedi in episode 3 are both motivated by his hamartia, his will to deny that which is fate, and his overwhelming hubris that causes him to believe he can stop fate. These acts are part of his tragic fall to the dark side culminating in him joining Sidious. If that isn't a tragic fall, then forgive my cliché, but I don't know what is.

The difference is that with Oedipus and Lear we join the story after any past acts of theirs which may have been great. We don't see any scenes, let alone entire movies, telling their stories from childhood.

A better analogy would be Citizen Kane, since we get to see Kane rise from humble childhood beginnings to become successful and well liked, but also having moral flaws that lead to his eventual collapse into reclusion. We aren't merely told about his success, we see it, along with the flaws. With Anakin we only ever see the flaws that are his eventual undoing, without any positive traits to make us like him or care.

In episode 4 we are told everything we need to know about Vader's backstory in order to make his redemption in episode 6 satisfying. 'He was a great pilot and a great jedi knight' Obi-wan says (paraphrasing). Paraphrasing the past makes sense, that's what Oedipus Rex and King Lear do, but in the prequels for some reason we are still given a paraprased summary of Anakin's good deeds, even though we are falling him during the time of his life when those deeds are supposedly happening.

As for "no one cares about that stuff", I agree that generally no one cares about what happened to Lear and Oedipus before the main story, and that's why no one thinks making prequels for those plays would be a good idea. If no one cares about Anakin's rise in a story that's about his rise and fall, then the whole thing could have been summarized like they did in episode 4 without losing anything.

 

[senordesol]

My problem with Vader as the 'hero' is that he never did anything, well, good until the end of ROTJ. When we see Obi Wan's reminiscence of Anikin in ANH we're painted the picture of someone who was decent and moral who (we find out later) was seduced by the dark side.

However in the Prequels, Vader is written as a bad apple almost from the start. He never seems to at least 'try' the light side option before 'slipping' into some darker habits; rather he seems almost always willing to bust out the lightsaber and carve up some fools at the slightest provocation. It takes almost no convincing at all to get Anakin to behead an unarmed (literally) prisoner, and he takes to killing Jedi children without question (even though that wouldn't make sense to him even after the Emperor's convoluted dismissal of "I can only be certain that only you had no part in this plot [to assassinate me]")

So, really, Vader was just always a jerk who stopped being a jerk long enough to do some good. That doesn't really make him a hero.

 

[josemlopes]

Well, everyone knows that the movies are the story of Darth Vader (not any other character or event), and he ends up being a hero in the end of it so yeah, you can call him a hero.

 

[370999]

There's a problem with this theory: the official line on that prophecy is that the dark side was inherently unbalancing, and Vader fulfilled it when he killed the emperor and then died himself, removing the dark side from active practice. The whole "two sith, two jedi" thing makes more sense, but since when has anything Lucas came up with made sense without being filtered through half a dozen other people?

I think it depends. Personally I like the idea of the dark side being inherently unstable and inevitably resulting in throwing things out of wack, the difference between a benign symbiotic relationship and that of a parasitic cancer. Of course it fails with the EU but whatever.

I always thought it was a bit of a push to make Vader the main character. Yes he is present in all the films but he has a much smaller amount of screen time compared to Luke in the original trilogy.

 

[senordesol]

Well, everyone knows that the movies are the story of Darth Vader (not any other character or event), and he ends up being a hero in the end of it so yeah, you can call him a hero.

Can we really? He does one decent thing in 6 pictures and that makes him a hero? I don't know about that. I'd say the movies are more 'about' the rise and fall of the Empire -all told- considering that Episode 1 doesn't have a main character, Ep 2 has 2, and Ep3 had 1 but all three are really more about Palpatine executing his final plan and everyone being helpless to stop it.

The Heroes of Star Wars were really Luke and Obi as they were the ones working actively to stop evil, with a primary antagonist doing something to redeem himself before the end. Vader was always a pawn -and a willing one at that. Now we've seen all kinds of movies where the hero realizes that he's being used as a pawn and spends the story trying to shrug off his shackles, but Vader doesn't do that until the very end of Jedi, and while that's efficient - his sacrifice and toil compared to that of the rebellion and Obi-wan pale in comparison.

 

[Darkmantle]

He was a jedi as of Episode 2 and while it is not shown,

Proving that the phrase "show don't tell" has totally eluded George's understanding.

 

[josemlopes]

Well, everyone knows that the movies are the story of Darth Vader (not any other character or event), and he ends up being a hero in the end of it so yeah, you can call him a hero.

Can we really? He does one decent thing in 6 pictures and that makes him a hero? I don't know about that. I'd say the movies are more 'about' the rise and fall of the Empire -all told- considering that Episode 1 doesn't have a main character, Ep 2 has 2, and Ep3 had 1 but all three are really more about Palpatine executing his final plan and everyone being helpless to stop it.

The Heroes of Star Wars were really Luke and Obi as they were the ones working actively to stop evil, with a primary antagonist doing something to redeem himself before the end. Vader was always a pawn -and a willing one at that. Now we've seen all kinds of movies where the hero realizes that he's being used as a pawn and spends the story trying to shrug off his shackles, but Vader doesn't do that until the very end of Jedi, and while that's efficient - his sacrifice and toil compared to that of the rebellion and Obi-wan pale in comparison.

You could call him a hero (I wouldnt because I agree with you) and while Luke is "The Hero" of the story the main character is still Darth Vader

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Not only was Anakin a hero, he's the only character aside from Han Solo to show any freaking emotion in those movies (unless you count Luke's weird NOOO face)

I think the emperors death in Return of the Jedi is one of the greatest film scenes of all time, why? Because you can see Darth Vader's internal strife as he reassesses his entire world-view, deciding whether he should help his own son, or kill the Emperor. Yet the actor is wearing a full facial mask and doesn't speak, he just stares back and forth at the Emperor getting all Electric Light Orchestra up in Luke's shizzle, and yet he is just full of raw emotion:

 

[Dogstile]

Episode 3? What? Everyone knows there were only three Star Wars movies, the last being Return of the Jedi in 1983. Everyone saw the decline in quality at the time, what with the Ewoks and and some of the terrible pacing issues, and decided to call it quits before they ran the franchise into the ground.

By the same token there were only ever 2 Terminator films, 2 Alien films, 1 Predator film, and 1 Matrix.

Lies. They totally released a new Predator movie a couple of years ago. It was called Predators and it was pretty awesome.

What exactly did you watch? It didn't even have any decent action in it. Hell, even the first predator film had character building. In an /action/ film. I mean holy shit.

Then again, I might be bitter because I actually paid to see that crap in the cinema.

OP: I'd struggle to call him a hero. He blew up a planet. That is all.

 

[redisforever]

Episode 3? What? Everyone knows there were only three Star Wars movies, the last being Return of the Jedi in 1983. Everyone saw the decline in quality at the time, what with the Ewoks and and some of the terrible pacing issues, and decided to call it quits before they ran the franchise into the ground.

By the same token there were only ever 2 Terminator films, 2 Alien films, 1 Predator film, and 1 Matrix.

You forgot the 3 Indy movies. I think there was a fan film made later, which was called Indy 4, but nobody liked it.

On topic: I actually agree, and also, I think he was the most interesting character in the original trilogy. Sure, Obi-Wan was interesting, as was Han, but really, Vader.

 

[senordesol]

Actually, I always thought the most emotional moment in the Star Wars movies was in the second movie, with the line "They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals! I hate them!"

And I'm not trolling at all (everyone seems to think I am when I say this).

I think the whole scene of Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders was a mistake. It didn't portray a slow but steady descent into the dark side but a man who would forsake his Jedi training at the drop of a hat. The scene itself also created several contradictions in the characters of others that really didn't make a lot of sense. Yoda senses all the crap Anakin is going through but never brings it up? Padme listens to this guy go on a megalomaniacal rant after committing genocide and decides to marry him?

A better scene would have been Anakin find his mother, her dying, him gripping his lightsaber -filled with rage- but then stopping, collecting her body, and leaving them alone. He can then confide in Padme that he wanted to kill them all, but knew that wouldn't bring his mother back. But if that is what it would've taken to save her...he's not sure he would have been able to stop himself.

This would do just a good a job at highlighting the latent darkness within Anakin without contradicting the other characters. Padme would have a reason to be proud that he controlled himself, and cemented a desire to keep him grounded in the light. Yoda may still have sensed some turmoil but he would feel the uncontrolled explosion of fury that would have resulted from Anakin slaughtering an entire village's worth of people.

It also fosters the illusion that there is still hope for him (though we know the inevitable is coming). While we know that he'll become Darth Vader, it shouldn't be that obvious.

 

[Darkmantle]

Actually, I always thought the most emotional moment in the Star Wars movies was in the second movie, with the line "They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals! I hate them!"

And I'm not trolling at all (everyone seems to think I am when I say this).

I think the whole scene of Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders was a mistake. It didn't portray a slow but steady descent into the dark side but a man who would forsake his Jedi training at the drop of a hat. The scene itself also created several contradictions in the characters of others that really didn't make a lot of sense. Yoda senses all the crap Anakin is going through but never brings it up? Padme listens to this guy go on a megalomaniacal rant after committing genocide and decides to marry him?

A better scene would have been Anakin find his mother, her dying, him gripping his lightsaber -filled with rage- but then stopping, collecting her body, and leaving them alone. He can then confide in Padme that he wanted to kill them all, but knew that wouldn't bring his mother back. But if that is what it would've taken to save her...he's not sure he would have been able to stop himself.

This would do just a good a job at highlighting the latent darkness within Anakin without contradicting the other characters. Padme would have a reason to be proud that he controlled himself, and cemented a desire to keep him grounded in the light. Yoda may still have sensed some turmoil but he would feel the uncontrolled explosion of fury that would have resulted from Anakin slaughtering an entire village's worth of people.

It also fosters the illusion that there is still hope for him (though we know the inevitable is coming). While we know that he'll become Darth Vader, it shouldn't be that obvious.

And I wish you were on the production team Star Wars probably would have turned out better.