David Jaffe Dumps on "Art Games"

[Tomo Stryker]

No I don't know. He seems like a total douche to me. He's the kind of douche that should be sent a copy of this video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_QDGdbg-QQ] and be forced to watch it repeatedly until he has a Grinch-style change of heart and decides to stop saying things, no matter how inaccurate or irrelevant, just to get his name mentioned in more news articles.

Hey man its your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

Funny link though, should definitely save that and use it later on, thanks.

 

[Lokithrsourcerer]

I disagree entirely; I think that by trumpeting the potential of the medium, we ultimately attract new artists who push new frontiers, and that encourages innovation, not stagnation. The assumption that it has to be a zero-sum game is entirely fallacious. But for anyone interested in the games as art debate, it's well worth reading. Check out the whole thing a

perhaps I've misunderstood but to me it seems that he is saying that attention being taken away from other games is the problem combined with games that are bad being given a free ride by claiming to be artistic.

I would say that there isn't a problem giving art games some of the spotlight but traditional games should not be pushed aside in he process and that spot light should still illuminate the flaws in these games as well as the qualities. at the end of a day if a game is a bad game its a bad game and all games/gametypes should be represented without any being left to stagnate. even if that means we find out they're crap.

just because a game has lots of violence and guns or whatever doesn't mean it cant be art. I think the problem is people are confusing "art" with pretentiousness

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

He has a point.

We are so worked up about games like portal and shadow of collusios that we miss the art that goes on in simple stuff like "super gore fighter 2 THE XTERME!".

I think he's talking more about games like "Limbo" that have really crap gameplay but are praised as art solely because they're cryptic and stylized. Shadow of the colossus was actually good when you got to the "killing mountains with legs" parts.

 

[Twilight_guy]

He's conflating pretentious art and regular art. Every book can be categorized as art but not every book is about bullshit pretentious philosophy in the same way any game can be art but not every game is about bullshit pretentious slow wind blowing non-sense. Games already fit into the same social structure as art, within the more exclusive cultural group of course, and its not about the subject matter or physical form so much as it is about the way we treat something or perceive it.

 

[lord waffles of taco]

thats what hes saying the games can have nice art but they also have to have good pacing and game play like shadow of colossus

 

[gibboss28]

I agree completely with what he's saying and he makes a good point which unfortunately is covered in ramblings

 

[GeorgW]

This man is a one man controversy machine. He should team up with Pachter, Kanye West, and Yahtzee to make the most controversial gaming statement of all time.

Sounds like a plan!

He does have a point, like moviebob says, "Games are toys!" But there is a golden medium, why can't games like shadow of the colossus and Duke Nukem co-exist?

 

[ObsessiveSketch]

I think he's got more of an issue with the games that try too hard to be artsy, AKA:
<youtube=xI2MQkihhM4&feature=related>

 

[KrazyKain]

We're talking about a dude who designed a game about a big manly demi god cutting up bodies like a hot knife through butter, and having sex at least one point in every game...

does this really sound like the person you want to be taking art advice from?

 

[Mouse One]

I think he's got more of an issue with the games that try too hard to be artsy, AKA:
<youtube=xI2MQkihhM4&feature=related>

Is the problem with that clip that it's surrealist? Or is it just that it's not very good? Take the old "Bingo the Clown" Maya/CG demonstration-- I'd argue that stylistically, it's in the same catagory as your example. But it's also well done:

<youtube=1OBUj-LBsVo&feature=related>

 

[ObsessiveSketch]

snip

Is the problem with that clip that it's surrealist? Or is it just that it's not very good? Take the old "Bingo the Clown" Maya/CG demonstration-- I'd argue that stylistically, it's in the same catagory as your example. But it's also well done:

<youtube=1OBUj-LBsVo&feature=related>

Lol, no. It's a real-life reenactment of a clip from Family Guy. Said clip was purposefully poking fun at surrealistic films, specifically the notion that if it's weird enough and completely incomprehensible, it must be "fine art". My point was that Jaffe isn't dumping on artistic games, but rather games that try too hard to be "artsy".

Btw, that video's awesome, thanks for sharing it.

 

[Jumplion]

"Yeah! Games are about fun man! We don't need no stinkin' pretentious dickweed art games! We just want to blow shit up, who gives a crap about story, it's the game part of Video games, man! GO JAFFE!"

Augh, I hate the "fun = explosions" crowd. Fun means you are enjoying yourself, and yes, all games should try to do that. Fun does not mean explosions everywhere, with a side of blood and maybe tits.

I prefer to use the term "entertaining" becaues that is the core of any successful medium. Anything in a game can be "entertaining", whether it's the story, gameplay, or the cartoony visuals. Schindler's List wasn't "fun" but it did "entertain" its audience to an extent with a gripping, yet tragic, story of the holocaust.

snip

I do recall you getting into debates in Extra Credits videos, though I never bothered to read what you guys argued about. Still, I find it difficult to disagree with you with your dashing, European charm since we seem to be on the same boat here pretty much.

I am a huge advocate of "balance" and "middle-ness-es" stuff. You need to have a balanced diet of junk foods and healthier ones, you need a balance of criticizing and praising your children in what they do, you need a balance in government power and citizen control, and you need a balance of story and gameplay to make a truly good game. Sometimes an extreme is needed, like you need to gain weight for a boxing match, or war is on the horizon, and while I do enjoy the occasional extremes in the "entertaining" and "meaningful" sides of the games, in the end the best games utilize both the story and the gameplay to its advantage.

 

[Mouse One]

snip

Is the problem with that clip that it's surrealist? Or is it just that it's not very good? Take the old "Bingo the Clown" Maya/CG demonstration-- I'd argue that stylistically, it's in the same catagory as your example. But it's also well done:


Lol, no. It's a real-life reenactment of a clip from Family Guy. Said clip was purposefully poking fun at surrealistic films, specifically the notion that if it's weird enough and completely incomprehensible, it must be "fine art". My point was that Jaffe isn't dumping on artistic games, but rather games that try too hard to be "artsy".

Btw, that video's awesome, thanks for sharing it.

Oh, I get it now. There's always some slow kid in the room that doesn't get the joke, guess that was me this time. In that light, yeah, there's a lot of pretentious film student drek out there. They emulate the style of some of the old masterpieces (there is a lot of good film noir out there, after all), but miss the whole point of, well, having a point.

I don't think that's a problem with videogames, though. I just haven't seen that many deliberately pretentious art videogames, at least on the mass market level. I know some people didn't like The Path, for example, but it really does have a point. One might find the game play far too slow, but now we're just evaluating it on the basis of whether it succeeds, not whether the sub-genre of exploratory environments is flawed by its very nature.

I guess I'm just trying to say that "art" games aren't bad, games with bad art are bad. If that makes any sense.

 

[veloper]

Pretentious anythings are always bad. Aiming for Art is always pretentious.

Games especially are supposed to be fun. The high brow people never care about actual quality, let alone fun.


Jaffe proves once again he is a smart man.

 

[Puzzlenaut]

Dear David Jaffe, I have seen your God of War 3 sex minigame.

Any opinion you have on anything is now totally invalid, so stfu and go make a good game.

seriously though, when Ken Levine comes out and says that "art" games are a load of crap, I'll listen, but when David Jaffe, proud creator of the horrendous, meaningless gore-fest that is God of War, I'm inclined to take it a little less seriously.

 

[Mouse One]

Pretentious anythings are always bad. Aiming for Art is always pretentious.

Games especially are supposed to be fun. The high brow people never care about actual quality, let alone fun.

Yanno, I'm married to a classical flute player. There's probably a fair number of people who would turn their noses up at orchestral music for being "snooty and pretentious". But that's a label applied by others, not the performers. You know why orchestral musicians play what they play? Because they absolutely love the music. Sure as heck ain't for the money.

Just because you don't find artistic games enjoyable and meaningful doesn't mean others don't. Not sure what you mean by "Aiming for art", but if by that you mean trying to say something other than "Kapow! Hey look at that zombie explode" is automatically pretentious, you're only talking about your personal tastes. Some of us enjoy Left 4 Dead AND the narrative of Braid. It's not an exclusive/or.

 

[veloper]

Pretentious anythings are always bad. Aiming for Art is always pretentious.

Games especially are supposed to be fun. The high brow people never care about actual quality, let alone fun.

Yanno, I'm married to a classical flute player. There's probably a fair number of people who would turn their noses up at orchestral music for being "snooty and pretentious". But that's a label applied by others, not the performers. You know why orchestral musicians play what they play? Because they absolutely love the music. Sure as heck ain't for the money.

Just because you don't find artistic games enjoyable and meaningful doesn't mean others don't. Not sure what you mean by "Aiming for art", but if by that you mean trying to say something other than "Kapow! Hey look at that zombie explode" is automatically pretentious, you're only talking about your personal tastes. Some of us enjoy Left 4 Dead AND the narrative of Braid. It's not an exclusive/or.

A designer can instead aim for making a game bigger, prettier, more balanced, more diverse, etc. etc. All concrete areas that can make a game, a better game.
This isn't what Jaffe was railing against.

The problem is with trying to elevate gaming with nebulous qualities, which are best described as Art. The only reason for it being, proponents worrying what other people think about them playing games or working in the game industry, so let's just pretend the stuff is hard to understand.

 

[Doclector]

I agree that there should always be a place for purely fun games on the Market. Stuff like bulletstorm, capcom fighting games, and saints row. But there should also be more games that add more depth to their experience. Not necessarily art as such, but at least more 3 dimensional characters, a plot that feels important, and so on.

Basically, we don't need brainless games exclusively, and we don't need alot more "art". We need a full spectrum of games, ranging from mindless fun to intelligent epics.

 

[Durananrananrananran]

All that matters to me is I know what games I like and what I don't. I like to get metaphors, I like beautiful art design, I like shooting things, I like holding a mute girl's hand and running around with an oversized helmet on, I like the solemnity of the death of a colossus, I like nice sprite design, I like intelligent pacing, and I like the absurd nonsense of previous generations (I hold games like Klonoa, Rayman 1 and Dynamite Headdy in very high regard).

I don't like this argument, it's tiresome. Games are art because they are a creative human endeavour whose success is defined subjectively (apart from the commercial side, natch). Marketing particular games as 'art games' is a thing for marketing departments to decide on - if this descends into using cliche to decide how to design a game for marketing it to a particular (perceived) consumer segment, then that's usually not a good thing for the gamer.
But of course poor design due to limited creativity can apply to games targeted at any segment, be it the 'art gamer', 't & a & explosions gamer', 'girls night in gamer' or whatever... just what I think.