DC Cancels Lobo, Justice League: United, and Gotham by Midnight - Update

[shintakie10]

My pet theory is that they are making books for an audience that won't buy them....either because comics still haven't saturated to a point where it's cool for everyone to read them (despite the movies) or because books like Doomed, Lobo, and so forth still require a entry point for familiarity, and people who aren't familiar with DC stuff aren't going to take a plunge without a lot of hype (such as Batgirl is getting).

I can agree with the second sentiment. The new Lobo and Doomsday definitely had a problem with needing to know the characters a bit to understand why the changes were so significant. In Lobo's case you could sort of get around it, but people weren't willing to bother to get around it because it wasn't entertaining enough.

I don't particularly agree with the first thought though. Marvel has proven pretty heavily (as well as the new Batgirl series) that there is, in fact, a market outside of the usual suspects for this. The problem is execution for the most part. Batgirl = Good. Ms Marvel = Good. Doomed = Not good.

If you look at some of DC's other attempts at diversification they've been fairly successful. Starfire has gotten a ton of good buzz around it, for multiple reasons. Cyborg being heavily centered on since the New 52 launch has been a wonderful addition to the main roster and his new solo series has been excellent so far. Black Canary is absolutely wonderful.

The problem with DC stuff is that their failures seem to be amplified when compared to Marvel's successes lately. For every Starfire or Black Canary you get 2 Lobos.

 

[Karadalis]

Creating an interesting and unusual minority character (unusual for a superhero) and building it from the ground up, giving the character her own drama, personality and worldview.

Good

Genderswapping, forcefully inserting "feminist" propaganda, but otherwise being the same ol superhero with the same ol problems and the same ol relationships between hero and villains and the same ol superpowers?

Very very bad

Thats the whole problem with this "diversivy this and diversivy that" nonsense that has been going on lately. You cant simply take established characters and "just" make them female, or black, or gay. (Thor, Human torch, and people actually demanded the next spiderman to be gay.. because diversity)

If you want such a character you cant simply steal an identity and slap a token minority identity on it and call it a day.

Ms. Marvel from the very beginning was a muslim girl that happens to become a superhero adopting the superhero identity of ms. marvel

And not Ms. Marvel who somehow now is a muslim girl in addition to a superhero but otherwise overall is the same.

I think this is where these attempts of "diversifying" things went horrible horrible wrong. In MS marvels case there was no feel of an underlying idealogy or agenda at work. These other comics thought? You could feel the "WE TOO!" cringe in those pages when female thor was spouting feminist rhetoric to herselfe while stopping some B-list villain from robbing a bank.

Seriously? Who the hell thinks about feminist ideals in the middle of a fucking brawl? Who does that? Wouldnt you be more worried about things like not getting killed or not getting any bystanders involved or worrying about if the villain has some hidden henchmen or aces up his sleeve? Nope.. sticking it "to the male" is a way more important train of thought...

And the black human torch? It didnt add anything to the character.. so hes black... yayyyy? What was achieved? Diversity? Why? Did the actor do anything outstanding performance wise that justified butchering the established character and hamfisting in the fact that he and his sisters somehow had different skin colors? It was literally tokenism to make a shite product look more apealing.

But the overall bottomline in all this is also hilarious:

All those people that scream for diversity in mediums like comics and games?

They wont buy your products... even if you cater to their tastes... they wont buy it.. because, you know, they dont really give a shit...

Your comic book or game can be as diverse as a rainbow hitting a discoball... if it is crap no ones going to buy it... and the twitter and tumblrina special snowflake crowd sure as hell wont buy it no matter if its bad or good.

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

Creating an interesting and unusual minority character (unusual for a superhero) and building it from the ground up, giving the character her own drama, personality and worldview.

Good

Genderswapping, forcefully inserting "feminist" propaganda, but otherwise being the same ol superhero with the same ol problems and the same ol relationships between hero and villains and the same ol superpowers?

Very very bad

Thats the whole problem with this "diversivy this and diversivy that" nonsense that has been going on lately. You cant simply take established characters and "just" make them female, or black, or gay. (Thor, Human torch, and people actually demanded the next spiderman to be gay.. because diversity)

If you want such a character you cant simply steal an identity and slap a token minority identity on it and call it a day.

Ms. Marvel from the very beginning was a muslim girl that happens to become a superhero adopting the superhero identity of ms. marvel

And not Ms. Marvel who somehow now is a muslim girl in addition to a superhero but otherwise overall is the same.

I think this is where these attempts of "diversifying" things went horrible horrible wrong. In MS marvels case there was no feel of an underlying idealogy or agenda at work. These other comics thought? You could feel the "WE TOO!" cringe in those pages when female thor was spouting feminist rhetoric to herselfe while stopping some B-list villain from robbing a bank.

Seriously? Who the hell thinks about feminist ideals in the middle of a fucking brawl? Who does that? Wouldnt you be more worried about things like not getting killed or not getting any bystanders involved or worrying about if the villain has some hidden henchmen or aces up his sleeve? Nope.. sticking it "to the male" is a way more important train of thought...

And the black human torch? It didnt add ANYTHING to the character.. so hes black... yayyyy? What was achieved? Diversity? Why? Did the actor do anything outstanding performance wise that justified butchering the established character and hamfisting in the fact that he and his sisters somehow had different skin colors? It was literally tokenism to make a shite product look more apealing.

But the overall bottomline in all this is also hilarious:

All those people that scream for diversity in mediums like comics and games?

They wont buy your products... even if you cater to their tastes... they wont buy it.. because THEY DONT REALLY GIVE A SHIT...

Your comic book or comic can be as diverse as a rainbow hitting a discoball... if it is crap no ones going to buy it... and the twitter and tumblrina special snowflake crowd sure as hell wont buy it no matter if its bad or good.

what does this have to do with anything? how did this become a talk about Diversity?

Does everything have to go back to gamergate and sjw?

 

[Karadalis]

what does this have to do with anything? how did this become a talk about Diversity?

Does everything have to go back to gamergate and sjw?

Nice gamedropping there. I neither mentioned gamergate nor sjws so how about you stop throwing these tags around as if its going out of fashion?

Also really? Have you even bothered reading the full article? here let me point it out for you:

But what's really worth considering is the direction of DC stories overall. The Omega Men and Doomed are both "DC You" titles - comics which emphasized diversity in both characters and creators. The line was partially a response to books like Ms. Marvel, which saw enormous success and critical acclaim that DC never reached in its own attempts. Last month, anonymous sources within DC have suggested the company would return to a "meat and potatoes" approach where creators "stop Batgirling" and refocus on core superheroes. Which is strange if true, considering books like Batgirl and Harley Quinn aren't expected to go anywhere.

DC tried to pull a Ms. Marvel without even getting why Ms. Marvel is held in high regard in the first place. Neither did Marvels own more cringeworthy attempts of repeating Ms. Marvels success.. it went completly over their head that it was not the fact alone that this time the superhero was muslim but that a muslim became a superhero wich added an interesting background that you never saw before. Being a muslim wasnt just a checkpoint on a list of token attributes to be considered progressive. Ms. Marvel is a compelling character on her own. Sure she shares the name with a former known character but is essentially completly her own, she just adopted the name because she herselfe before getting her superpowers was quite the fangirl.. and still is. She has to manage her new exciting live as a superhero next to her traditional inclined parents and her teenage live. This is the kind of drama and dynamic wich makes for an interesting read, add to that that the comic avoids falling into eyerolling stereotypes and you have a really good comic that treads new ground..

In comparison:
Female thor on the other hand... is thor.. with boobs... and a feminist agenda... yayyy? No sorry.. that doesnt work and the readers have clearly shown they dont want idealouge pandering but real characters with character. Not just a list of checkboxes being market but everything remains the same.

They created products for customers that didnt exist based solely on demands from the press and internet slactivists that must hamfist "diversity" into everything as if diversity alone is the solution to all of societies problems.

And the less we talk about bishi lobo the better...

 

[shintakie10]

In comparison:
Female thor on the other hand... is thor.. with boobs... and a feminist agenda... yayyy? No sorry.. that doesnt work and the readers have clearly shown they dont want idealouge pandering but real characters with character. Not just a list of checkboxes being market but everything remains the same.

They created products for customers that didnt exist based solely on demands from the press and internet slactivists that must hamfist "diversity" into everything as if diversity alone is the solution to all of societies problems.

And the less we talk about bishi lobo the better...

Not sure why you're harping on the new Thor when the vast majority of comic book readers seem to disagree entirely with you, since its selling fairly well still.

Also, diversity for the sake of diversity is, in fact, an extraordinarily good thing by and large. Yes its important to avoid tokenism, but for people of minorities its important to be able to see yourself reflected in media and pop culture and not see a giant sea of white people everywhere.

 

[Mikeybb]

I get why people argue that, but I can't say I agree. One of my favorite versions of Constantine came from Neil Gaiman's "The Books of Magic", which featured the entire magical superhero community, looked at his relationship with Zatana and Madame Xanadu, and even referenced Superman at one point.

That being said, I don't think the "Constantine is a powerful magic badass" works either. He's just smart and capable enough to scrape past danger by a thread, but flawed enough to hurt or drive away his closest friends. It's hard to pull off and stay compelling, especially in a superhero unierse.

But hey, not everybody is Neil Gaiman.

True.
I remember the series, now you mention it, though for some reason I'd logged that one away as a conjunction of elseworlds facilitated by the big green guardian of the swamps.
The idea of Zatana and Constantine having had a relationship isn't something I oppose inherently.
In fact, I think it could work well given the personalities that would be mixing.

I have to say, I didn't realise Timothy Hunter was meant to be part of the mainstream DC universe too.
Granted, my experience of the character is limited to the books of magic and the very first ten or so issues of the series springing from it (the memory is a little hazy, but it seemed to mostly be concerned with the fey and their realm).
Mainly I think the reason I couldn't envisage this are the same reasons I have for John.
It just feels like a difficult fit.
Thematically I mean.

Characters that are strong are fun to watch work off each other, even if the worlds that shaped them jar.
While I was writing this I found myself imagining a scene where the justice league are inspecting a crime scene and then, partly in shadow, a figure opens with an irreverent greeting in a liverpudlian accent then explains the true esoteric nature of the crime and steps out into the stark illumination of the room, starting to light up a cigarette as he does so.
Which promptly goes out.
He tries again.
It goes out again.
Superman is standing there looking very, very innocent.
Queue Kal microsuperbreathing out John's ciggies at every opportunity as a running gag for the series.

You should read year 3 of Injustice if you don't think Constantine fits into the DC universe well. The entire arc revolves around Constantine and the magic users vs Superman and his group.

It works really really well.

I'll have to check it out, time and budget permitting.
Injustice, as a setting, appealed and I can imagine the darker tones and more grim environment would fit well with many aspects of the Constantine character.
Magic vs Superman is also a logical step to take given his noted vulnerability to it.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[Fanghawk]

snip

Yeah, Constantine started out in the DCU (partly because he was created for Swamp Thing, which also guest-starred Superman/the Justice League at various points) but it wasn't until later Hellblazer arcs that creators treated it as a separate universe. But even then Zatanna and Swamp Thing showed up occasionally (during Garth Ennis' run, at a party where they convinced Swamp Thing to grow pot for them) and some DC supernatural lore that came into play with characters like Satan/the First of the Fallen.

But yes, I can't think of any instance where a costumed superhero appeared in Hellblazer. Even Zatanna stuck to her casual civilian clothes.

Now that I think of it, it's the same approach Punisher Max took. Spins out of direct events from superhero comics (specifically Punisher: Marvel Knights), keeping in characters who fit the theme (Nick Fury), and dropping all superheroes he met before (Daredevil and Spider-Man).

Guess there's precedent for getting capes out of stories.

 

[Elfgore]

Though I won't cheer for the cancellation, as I don't care for DC and someone out there probably liked them, I'm kinda happy to see the new Lobo go. They took a bad ass biker, bounty hunter and turned him into someone who looks like they ***** about how much they hate life and listen to Black Veil Brides.

 

[Christian Neihart]

DC Comics: If it isn't Batman and/or grim and gritty, then its not worth our time.

 

[Chester Rabbit]

Wait!!! That slim little vampire guy in that image there is LOBO!!! I'm not a comic fanatic but holy shit is that ever wrooooong.

Okay now that I have recovered from that little shock to the system.

Wasn't Swamp Thing also cancelled this year too?(Fuck you DC)

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

*checks watch* so what do we have? About another month before they reboot DC again? I'm not a Marvel fanboy by any means but its really hard to get into any character over at DC when the shit gets canceled and or rebooted every couple weeks. About the only consistent series has been Green Lantern and good god has it had its ups and downs. I haven't enjoyed it since the sinestro corps. Actually emerald twilight if I'm being honest.

How many times has Bruce Wayne died, 4? I've lost count.

 

[elvor0]

Creating an interesting and unusual minority character (unusual for a superhero) and building it from the ground up, giving the character her own drama, personality and worldview.

Good

Genderswapping, forcefully inserting "feminist" propaganda, but otherwise being the same ol superhero with the same ol problems and the same ol relationships between hero and villains and the same ol superpowers?

Very very bad

Thats the whole problem with this "diversivy this and diversivy that" nonsense that has been going on lately. You cant simply take established characters and "just" make them female, or black, or gay. (Thor, Human torch, and people actually demanded the next spiderman to be gay.. because diversity)

If you want such a character you cant simply steal an identity and slap a token minority identity on it and call it a day.

Ms. Marvel from the very beginning was a muslim girl that happens to become a superhero adopting the superhero identity of ms. marvel

And not Ms. Marvel who somehow now is a muslim girl in addition to a superhero but otherwise overall is the same.

I think this is where these attempts of "diversifying" things went horrible horrible wrong. In MS marvels case there was no feel of an underlying idealogy or agenda at work.

You what? Muslim Ms Marvel is exactly the same as all the other examples you gave. I have no idea what the comic is like, but Ms Marvel dates back to 1977, when she was Carol Danvers. Muslim Ms Marvel is in fact the fourth character to take the Ms Marvel mantle.

 

[SteinarB]

Really? Emo-Lobo wasn't a huge breakout hit? It didn't set the comicbook-reading world alight with excitement?

I'm surprised. No. No, I'm _shocked_! Shocked and surprised and quite possibly flabbergasted.

Really. I am.

See? I'm keeping a straight face saying this. Well. Almost a straight face. Okay, not really.

 

[circularlogic88]

*checks watch* so what do we have? About another month before they reboot DC again? I'm not a Marvel fanboy by any means but its really hard to get into any character over at DC when the shit gets canceled and or rebooted every couple weeks. About the only consistent series has been Green Lantern and good god has it had its ups and downs. I haven't enjoyed it since the sinestro corps. Actually emerald twilight if I'm being honest.

Slow down there. We still have to give new readers time to adjust to the status quo before DC decides that self-contained-nonsequential stories with heroes existing in a state of quasi-standalone/connective universes are dumb and then decide the concept of hypertime is the way to go.

 

[McMarbles]

Lobo was a mercy kill. Shame about JLU, though. I hope those characters find a home somewhere.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie Blue]

DC REALLY needs to stop all of this "experimentation" already. It's been nearly five years, enough is enough. EVERYONE Knows what works at this point. The fans keep using forums like this to directly tell DC and everyone else exactly what we want and they just don't want to listen. Relying on shock constant shock stunts is a incredibly Shitty business strategy. Convergence caused a 40% decrease in sales. If that doesn't wake them the fuck up I don't know what will. Supposedly they're after our money. If they're not even making money from this stupid shit what is the point.