Dead Island Torso Statue: Misogynistic? Stupid? Both? Neither?

[Batou667]

To be offended by a statuette (well, a bust, quite literally) and yet pay for, play, and enjoy a game filled to the brim with the exact same premise of scantily-clad gore and dismemberment is the height of hypocrisy. (Zombies in paradise, remember? The unique selling point that the Dead Island franchise is based on? Yeah?)

Don't want it? DON'T BUY IT, problem solved.

Also, does anybody else get the impression that if it was a male torso, this wouldn't even be a news story?

 

[Sansha]

Would it be better if it was wearing a t-shirt?

Maybe. Or they could have left her in a bikini, and simply shown the rest of her fucking body to emphasise that this is a person, not a piece of meat.

Okay, fair point. Counter-point: fitting that in the package, and that I honestly believe if it was a bikini-clad corpse or zombie doll it would be just as inappropriate.
And the generic zombie figure is boring. It won't stand out and will be seen as nothing more than ditch-effort to sell copies. Nobody will want it for that.

You remind me of the episode of The Simpsons where Marge has Itchy and Scratchy censored. Yeah, the end result was nice and pretty and appropriate for all the little boys and girls, but it was fuckin' boring and nobody was interested in it.

And it's a piece of meat because she's... uh, what's it, dead.

A video game that has horrific violence and sexual content. Two thumbs up.

Well aren't you the mature one?

See, while I like games to have adult ideas, I also like them to be handled maturely. A game which focuses on adult topics in an immature way is more childish than any Mario game could ever hope to be.

I've sincerely tried to be mature about this but your statement was so thick-headed the only response I could warrant was sarcasm. The point of the game is that it's a zombie horror experience on a tropical vacation destination, exactly what the fuck else are they going to advertise with to stick out from the crowd? They tried that silhouette of the guy hanging from the palm tree but you idiots threw a tantrum about that, too.

Then if it's not deliberately sexist, you got your apology, what's your problem?

The fact that a woman's mutilated, sexualised body is being used to sell a game. It's really not difficult to grasp, you know. I simply look at it, wonder how I would feel if I were a woman looking at that, and realise that I'd probably be a bit insulted. It's called basic empathy.

I'm yet to hear a woman's perspective on this. All I'm getting from you is white-knighting about the terrible oppression of women in the civil-rights void that is video game advertising.

Go protest an underwear billboard or something. Fuck.

For what? Advertising underwear? At least there there's no deception. And at least most underwear billboards remember to show the rest of the fucking woman, and don't hack off her arms, legs and head.

Fuck.

First, you've clearly not looked very hard if you've not seen a lingerie ad featuring just the chest, torso and thighs, or missed the headless, limbless mannequins. Google 'headless underwear model', I'll wait.

Second, they're sexualising their product in order to garner attention. Apart from the yucky gore, I see literally no difference, except the purpose of lingerie is explicitly sexual.

Actually no, the purpose of this statue is to be explicitly violent and edgy, just like the product its selling. Look what happened by accident.

This really is nothing more than Business Marketing 401:
The fans of the first game are going to buy the second one regardless, they simply added a gimmick which worked into an internet media frenzy which succeeded in gaining a ton of attention. People who aren't fans of the series are going to be turned off, and who cares, they're not going to buy it anyway, but people who think this is cool - like me - are going to be intrigued, look into the game and buy either this, the base game or the first game.

Got your attention, huh?

I won't, because the game itself is shit, but I'll be trolling eBay for people getting rid of their statues.

 

[maninahat]

There is something about the Internets and computer gaming at the moment that is bringing all the sanctimony and silly forced "liberal" posturing sentiment bubbling to the top in a huge shower of self righteous smugery, sneering and name calling.

At least you are here to be better than all of us.

If you want to tell people (like myself) that we are misreading or over-reacting then fine, but actually explain how we are misinterpreting the issue. Simply saying "I don't see anything wrong" without giving reasons makes you look oblivious, rather than level headed.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Snip

Back was out, wasn't paying much attention to the thread. It's still out, but I'm back at work at least. However, I'm hesitant to bump the thread. I kind of want it to die.

However, you seemed to genuinely want a reply so...

When I say "misandry presents itself in different ways" I mean exactly that. When was the last time you heard men, or even A MAN, moaning about the sexual objectification they struggled with in day to day life? It's not really a talking point for them. Like the women's rights movement, people concerned with men's rights are often galvanized by a desire to challenge our traditional gender roles. Which in our case probably doesn't mean being someone's property or sexual chattel, but fighting to be recognized as a valid parent, for instance, or rejecting the assumption that we are hapless, violent brutes because we have a dick.

That's why I get irritated with the constant efforts to undermine any "women's rights" issue on these forums with "WELL MEN HAVE IT HARD TOO YOU KNOW", as if both those things can't be true at the same time, or as if men and women didn't both have it hard in different ways. It doesn't do "men's rights" any favor to constantly hijack every woman's issue. It would be like a gay rights activist constantly clamoring for attention during racial issues. "Oh a Black Man was mistreated? WELL GAY PEOPLE ARE MISTREATED TOO EVER THINK ABOUT THAT?" and then start high fiving one another as though a major victory was scored. It's just a furthering of this tiresome "us against them" dynamic, as if both men and women couldn't possibly have legitimate issues at the same time.

So...why do I think there's an argument to be made that the statue is misogynistic? It's fairly obvious, yeah? It's a mutilated female torso with a pristine pair of ridiculously pneumatic tits. It has no other distinguishing characteristics at all. Look at my tits, says the statue. Everything else has been chopped away, leaving the most important element behind. We live in a society where violence against women is a major talking point, and the sexualization of violence against women is a concern. So naturally, some people are going to look at that statue and say WHAT THE FUCK? And I can't help but shrug and say "Well that's hardly surprising, obviously they were going to be upset."

Do I PERSONALLY think Deep Silver INTENDED the statue to be misogynistic? Probably not. I think it was MOST LIKELY either a marketing boner, or an attempt at generating publicity through shock. I will typically presume stupidity before malice. The point in posting the picture wasn't "OMG MISOGYNY, to ARMS!", it was just to ask what people thought. And since a great many people seemed to think "HURR DURR how could anyone possibly think this was misogynistic they must be STUPID FEMINIST BITCHES" I eventually got irritated. I can appreciate an argument of "Yes I think this is misogynistic BECAUSE..." or "No I don't think this is misogynistic BECAUSE...". What I can't appreciate is this well poisoning bullshit where we say "This is what I think, and anyone who thinks differently is a MORON". Tired of that kind of post. Not saying that was YOU, but tired of it in the thread.

And generally speaking, my back has been killing me for over a week now, so I'm fucking grumpy.

Back to being serious. We're not talking about avoiding the controversy, we're talking about what makes this statue sexist and how much sense it makes to be outraged over this.

"Outrage" is not a state of rationality. It's a state of emotional response. Do your emotional responses always make sense? Do you consider yourself the arbiter of all your emotional reactions? If so, congratulations, robot. You terrify me. If not, welcome to the human race. People don't get outraged for sensible reasons. They get outraged because they feel outrage. Do we sometimes feel that the things that outrage others are silly, or senseless, or vile? Of course we do. That doesn't automatically invalidate them, though. I don't get to decide what is, or is not, a "sensible" thing to get outraged about, any more than you do. And given how frequently you get pissed off when you post, that's probably a good thing for you.

Certain jokes and certain attitudes don't outrage me personally, because I have no personal stake in them. That doesn't mean I can't take a minute and try and understand why they make someone else feel the way they do. After all, we're just TALKING about something that happened. An ugly statue. We're not throwing anyone in jail, or instituting public policy that will affect all our lives. I don't know why "I see your point, but I disagree, and here is why" is like...the hardest thing anyone can ever say on these forums.

 

[Fappy]

I'd say it's just really stupid. It's not meant to objectify women any more than a cover of Maxim. It's really just... creative diarrhea? Yeah, we'll go with that.

 

[Zeren]

If it was a man's torso there would be no "Controversy". It's ridiculous.

 

[Zeke63]

There is something about the Internets and computer gaming at the moment that is bringing all the sanctimony and silly forced "liberal" posturing sentiment bubbling to the top in a huge shower of self righteous smugery, sneering and name calling.

To this guy and posters with similar sentiments. it's not forced snooty liberalness taking a rise in gaming media with no purpose. Feminism and misogyny is becoming such a big deal in videogame culture because it is such a prominent issue!

 

[Legion]

There is something about the Internets and computer gaming at the moment that is bringing all the sanctimony and silly forced "liberal" posturing sentiment bubbling to the top in a huge shower of self righteous smugery, sneering and name calling.

To this guy and posters with similar sentiments. it's not forced snooty liberalness taking a rise in gaming media with no purpose. Feminism and misogyny is becoming such a big deal in videogame culture because it is such a prominent issue!

No it isn't. It is no more of an issue in gaming culture than it is in general culture. There is absolutely nothing about gaming that encourages sexism, misogyny or similar that is not seen in equal or greater measure in society as a whole.

People talk about how games objectify women, but have you ever seen a copy of a womans magazine? They are full of stories about how to look good, how to please their man in bed, how they can win free plastic surgery. Media aimed at females is a hell of a lot more sexist than the media aimed at men is with their depiction of women.

The front covers show unrealistic women who have been airbrushed to look how a real woman never can. The articles that follow them gush about how perfect she looks, how with the right make-up a woman may be able to almost become as attractive as she is.

As for sexism in gaming culture. Before the whole "sexism" argument came about, places such as Xbox live were already infamous for a being a place full of trolls and bastards. People would often discuss how it was full of childish morons who think they are clever for calling everybody "niggers" and "fags".

It was largely "accepted" that it's not the kind of place full of pleasant people, that people go out of their way to be nasty. People didn't assume that it was full of racists and homophobes, people simply thought it was full of assholes.

It hasn't changed. It's just that you see more girls on Xbox live. So simple logic suggests that the more women playing games, the more women are going to get insulted while playing them. It's not that these assholes are sexist, it's that they doing what they do anyway, but now it's happening to girls as much as it happens to guys.

The problem lies in that people for some reason cannot seem to tell the difference between a woman being treated badly because the person is being a bastard, and a woman being treated badly because she is a woman.

The former is more common, but people for some reason always assume it's the latter. The former is just a case of a person being a bastard, and the latter is misogyny.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's not that these assholes are sexist, it's that they doing what they do anyway, but now it's happening to girls as much as it happens to guys.

The problem lies in that people for some reason cannot seem to tell the difference between a woman being treated badly because the person is being a bastard, and a woman being treated badly because she is a woman.

I can't remember which one, but I recall this coming up in another discussion a while back. I stated then that I wasn't terribly interested in understanding the motivations of idiots, and I kind of feel the same way now.

If I call a black man a "******", and he understandably interprets that as racism, does it REALLY matter if I was *truly racist* deep in the cockles of my heart? Isn't this sort of a case of racist is as racist does? I don't know why we're scampering to divide this up into cases of actual sexism vs accidental sexism vs trolling. If people don't want to get slapped with accusations of racism and sexism and whateverism on the internet, maybe they should cease to behave like assholes. Then we wouldn't have to trouble ourselves figuring out if they really meant what they were saying.

 

[Overusedname]

The boobs go untouched...makes me a little suspicious I guess. That combines with the unfortunate implications of a head and arm's missing, which is actually a frequent instance of 'dehumanizing' in art, reducing people to the most sexually attractive bits of flesh, and removing the brain, the center of thought and identity, and the limbs, representative of will and action.

Sorry, but there IS a reason to find this kind of hateful, not just distasteful. I personally don't have strong feelings about it as nothing was seemingly meant by it, but I get why people do get offended.

If it was a male whose scrotum or buttock went untouched, I'd be suspicious of a similar subtext, for the record.

 

[Sansha]

It's not that these assholes are sexist, it's that they doing what they do anyway, but now it's happening to girls as much as it happens to guys.

The problem lies in that people for some reason cannot seem to tell the difference between a woman being treated badly because the person is being a bastard, and a woman being treated badly because she is a woman.

I can't remember which one, but I recall this coming up in another discussion a while back. I stated then that I wasn't terribly interested in understanding the motivations of idiots, and I kind of feel the same way now.

If I call a black man a "******", and he understandably interprets that as racism, does it REALLY matter if I was *truly racist* deep in the cockles of my heart? Isn't this sort of a case of racist is as racist does? I don't know why we're scampering to divide this up into cases of actual sexism vs accidental sexism vs trolling. If people don't want to get slapped with accusations of racism and sexism and whateverism on the internet, maybe they should cease to behave like assholes. Then we wouldn't have to trouble ourselves figuring out if they really meant what they were saying.

Don't bother trying to figure out the motivation of idiots, here's your motivation: because they can and their actions are without consequence. That's simply all there is to it.

You will never, in your entire life, see anonymous people with access to public forums and other communication techniques that hide their identities and motivations stop being assholes. As long as there's voice and private messages on Xbox Live, there are going to be immature assholes. It will never, ever end.

They're not being deliberately sexist, racist, homophobic or whatever, they're using whatever the easiest connection they can think of to insult the person they're flinging shit at, and if that target happens to be a female, guess what they're going to say?
Myself being a white adult male, what I'm going to be called is either 'loser neckbeard' or simply '******'.

And it's not just males who do this. I've been bitched out and insulted by women in games before. I've seen and heard female gamers be just as appalling as the stereotypical 13-year old boy who screeches '******' as every other word. That doesn't make it acceptable by any stretch, but it's not just misogynists.

It's everyone, and it'll never stop.

 

[The Material Sheep]

It's not that these assholes are sexist, it's that they doing what they do anyway, but now it's happening to girls as much as it happens to guys.

The problem lies in that people for some reason cannot seem to tell the difference between a woman being treated badly because the person is being a bastard, and a woman being treated badly because she is a woman.

I can't remember which one, but I recall this coming up in another discussion a while back. I stated then that I wasn't terribly interested in understanding the motivations of idiots, and I kind of feel the same way now.

If I call a black man a "******", and he understandably interprets that as racism, does it REALLY matter if I was *truly racist* deep in the cockles of my heart? Isn't this sort of a case of racist is as racist does? I don't know why we're scampering to divide this up into cases of actual sexism vs accidental sexism vs trolling. If people don't want to get slapped with accusations of racism and sexism and whateverism on the internet, maybe they should cease to behave like assholes. Then we wouldn't have to trouble ourselves figuring out if they really meant what they were saying.

Well yeah... but its the interwebs. Not having to deal with a person face to face gives a lot of people a blank check to act like apes, and that is just the fact of the matter. We don't have to like it and we damn well shouldn't like it, but lets address it for what it is. A bunch of assholes who feel like they don't have any consequences to their actions. It's not an inherent plague of sexism in gaming, at least not any more so then any other facet of our culture. Not something that's fixed by short sighting moral crusades.

I think a big thing to take away from this though, is the idea that you shouldn't take those actions to heart and you shouldn't feel as if people who do act like animals are some how associated or reflect you as an individual. Let them act like apes, and throw their feces. This doesn't apply to people that can be held accountable for their actions such as... that couch in that fighting tourny thing happened a while back who was making some really disgusting remarks about the female player. Hold those guys accountable. Don't take 360 trolls seriously, or better yet just ignore them.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's everyone, and it'll never stop.

Well yeah... but its the interwebs. Not having to deal with a person face to face gives a lot of people a blank check to act like apes, and that is just the fact of the matter.

Man, you guys are cynical. Go look at some fucking puppies or something, jesus. You're depressing me.

It's not an inherent plague of sexism in gaming, at least not any more so then any other facet of our culture.

Of course it isn't. "Gaming" is inherently neutral. PEOPLE are sexist, or cruel, or stupid, or foolish. GAMING is just a form of media. I guess as media goes it's a bit of a boy's club still, but that's rapidly changing. Soon us greybeards will be relics, and everyone will have grown up with games, and it'll be as commonplace as television is now, and we can stop talking about "gaming" like a unified culture and sounding like nitwits when we try.

Not something that's fixed by short sighting moral crusades.

Nothing is ever fixed by SHORT SIGHTED anything, I should think. It's the short sightedness, I suspect, that is the problem.

 

[Sixties Spidey]

I'm angry at it not because it's disgusting or tasteless, but because it's the worst possible thing they could've used to promote their game. Imagine if Portal came out with a disembodied turret with no legs or moving parts for its collector's edition, or if Mass Effect came out with just the torso part of the N7 armor as a collector's item. No, I'm angry at it not only because it's a fucking stupid idea, but its the thing they chose to represent Dead Island for their CE. Think of all the things that could possibly represent Dead Island: That disembodied torso is probably the last thing that would come to mind. If they want to give us a collector's item, I'd rather they just make a replica of the zombie hanging off the tree by a noose just like in the logo.

As it stands, it's a fucking moronic CE.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

No need for this rather dull student politics navel gazing.

Meh. I enjoy a rhetorical debate. It's not like I have anything better to do during slow stretches at work. I guess I could stare at my desktop wallpaper.

I assure you I'm not losing a lot of sleep over it.

 

[Sansha]

It's everyone, and it'll never stop.

Well yeah... but its the interwebs. Not having to deal with a person face to face gives a lot of people a blank check to act like apes, and that is just the fact of the matter.

Man, you guys are cynical. Go look at some fucking puppies or something, jesus. You're depressing me.

It's not an inherent plague of sexism in gaming, at least not any more so then any other facet of our culture.

Of course it isn't. "Gaming" is inherently neutral. PEOPLE are sexist, or cruel, or stupid, or foolish. GAMING is just a form of media. I guess as media goes it's a bit of a boy's club still, but that's rapidly changing. Soon us greybeards will be relics, and everyone will have grown up with games, and it'll be as commonplace as television is now, and we can stop talking about "gaming" like a unified culture and sounding like nitwits when we try.

Not something that's fixed by short sighting moral crusades.

Nothing is ever fixed by SHORT SIGHTED anything, I should think. It's the short sightedness, I suspect, that is the problem.

That you misquoted me shows you're not worth further attention.

EDIT: oh, you got the names wrong. Sorry.