Death is okay as long as it's not kids

[Faladorian]

From what i understand, the protection instinct comes after a certain age, and coming into direct contact with children can serve to nurture and enhance it. You probably don't have kids of your own, so you're (like me) still insensitive to this. This is why people keep saying "have kids and then talk" which is funny because it doesn't make the sentiment any more rational. It's just an argument relying on you being as irrational as they are.

Oh, man does that piss me off when people do that. They get all on their high horse because "I... HAVE... KIDS!!!!!" Okay, I have free time, disposable income, and I don't have to make convoluted plans just to have time for myself. But I'm sure kids are great...

But there is some logical upside to protecting a child: that child could potentially reach great heights in life and serve mankind better than most. Death eliminates the potential, hence death is undesirable.

Yeah, and I see that, but the fact that there is somebody who already made their footing and is already helping the community... that means more to me than the potential to do the same.

Also, who knows? If you let the firefighter die, 20 children could die because he wasn't there to save them. I just really don't see the need to save the child (that is, if I couldn't save both. I'm not heartless).

 

[lacktheknack]

Not true. If a child is given almost no attention while growing up, it doesn't come out sweet and innocent. They come out as selfish and bratty. Bad parenting can make it WORSE, but good parenting is actively changing the child's disposition.

Children aren't bundles of charm and goodness, nor are they a blank slate, nor are they actively evil. They're just HUMAN. And a human with no preconceptions will take self-preservation/glorification every single time.

I'm sorry, what!?
How does "given almost no attention while growing up" not consitute bad parenting?

That's "non-parenting". Bad parenting is actually trying, except making everything worse (ie. buying inappropriate things for your child, abuse, horrendous over-correction, etc.). Even if you consider non-parenting to be a form of bad parenting, my point still stands - that a child, if completely uninfluenced, is not sweet and innocent, they'll act like any other uninhibited human being.

 

[Woodsey]

People - even, as we've seen, certain gamers - feel it's OK for films, books and TV to kill children, but not for games. No, I don't get the logic either, but there you go.

No one cared when Rick shot the girl in The Walking Dead. Kill a girl in a trailer (yes, geniuses, of course it's supposed to manipulate a response from you to advertise a product - what, pray tell, do you think other trailers are designed to do?) for a game, and suddenly it's appalling.

 

[infinity_turtles]

But it DOESN'T make you feel any sort of complex emotion. A kid dies to save his mom, who had always been living her life to help her child. Now, she doesn't know what to do with herself, and can't commit suicide because she doesn't want to waste her child's sacrifice. THAT'S a complex emotion. Here's a simple emotion...

A MILLION people died.
Are you sad yet? How about...
A BILLION puppies died, and they had slow deaths.
How about now? What about...
A TRILLION PUPPIES, and the little girls that owned them, are all tortured to death!!

See, for deaths like the Dead Island trailer, the children are often not part of some web of strong character development or in the middle of any Xanatos Gambit; it's just death, plain and simple. "This person died, and they didn't deserve to. Isn't that sad." To me, it feels stupid because it's a juvenile way of trying to get me to feel emotions.

The one thing I can agree with you about is that there is no point to trying to censor this stuff. But that doesn't mean I will defend it as "good art".

Never said it was complex or somehow a superb piece of art. I simply think that any piece of media that makes you feel something, not necessarily something complex, is a success. A cheap success, sure, but a success none the less. Kind of want to take a stab at the notion of there being such a thing as "good art", but I'm a little worn out from that specific debate.

That said, I do think the Dead Island Trailer was superbly put together. The way it was edited, the composition of most of the shots, that tiny bit of characterization there was of the family, and the choice of music were all really good. Sure, it was preying on a cultural weakness, and it's not like some high-concept thing that knocked my socks off, but for something that short, it did an amazing job at exploiting that weakness. So yeah, it's the equivalent of an emotional suckerpunch for most people, but damn if it wasn't a good suckerpunch.

 

[Pyromaniak3]

Well you got one thing right... Death is OK, however I prefer "Death is ok as long as its not ME.

Or my Chocolate lab.

 

[Ridley the Violator]

Killing kids just isn't fun. In Dead Space they're hard to hit and not very satisfying to kill. I mean, really, where's the challenge in killing a baby or a little kid? Boring.

 

[Ohhi]

Who cares death is death it doesn't matter wether they are children or adults people die it's what happens in this world there is nothing we can do to change it the sooner you accept that you are already dead the sooner you can live your life to the fullest.

 

[MasterChief892039]

Maternal/paternal instinct. People are programmed to protect kids, and considering they're so cheery and full of potential, it seems a shame to snuff them out.

That doesn't mean it doesn't suck when adults die though. It just means that there are extra heartstrings to be pulled when the person dying hasn't reached puberty yet.

 

[Archemetis]

The argument of 'Children having not lived... Man' is kind of pointless in this topic when counteracted with this simple gem.

Death under any circumstance, is not very nice.

Gruesome death even less nice. I won't dispute that I'd be more cut up if I saw a child/puppy die in front of me than I would be if an adult did.

But at the end of the day, viewing death is not a particularly enjoyable experience (for some).

It's the way the death is portrayed that I think has a lot of people up in arms.

The OP's example of the Dead Island trailer, actually horrified me. In retrospect I shouldn't have watched it at 3am when I was readying myself to go to bed.

But It's not the first time I've seen a child's death in reverse.

No no no! I've seen it in Speed Limit advertisements.

Those will fuck you up...

People think that watching an admittedly beautifully rendered CG girl's bones snap back in place while she floats through the air, blood surging back into her open wounds would be disturbing.

Try thinking about a REAL girls bones snapping back into place while she slides across a road, blood dribbling back into her forehead until the last sickening crack of her fucking neck re-aligning itself can be heard.

Where am I going with this?

I dunno, but regardless I'm going to close with this.

People need to stop being so touchy, it's been done before just because it's been done for a video game now doesn't mean it's automatically worse. Get over it.

 

[Katana314]

Never said it was complex or somehow a superb piece of art. I simply think that any piece of media that makes you feel something, not necessarily something complex, is a success. A cheap success, sure, but a success none the less. Kind of want to take a stab at the notion of there being such a thing as "good art", but I'm a little worn out from that specific debate.

That said, I do think the Dead Island Trailer was superbly put together. The way it was edited, the composition of most of the shots, that tiny bit of characterization there was of the family, and the choice of music were all really good. Sure, it was preying on a cultural weakness, and it's not like some high-concept thing that knocked my socks off, but for something that short, it did an amazing job at exploiting that weakness. So yeah, it's the equivalent of an emotional suckerpunch for most people, but damn if it wasn't a good suckerpunch.

Guess we've come down to the wire of the argument. Your opinion of what constitutes success or art seems to be vastly different from mine.

 

[Sexbad]

I'm sure it's not much more than instinct that drives us to be horrified by seeing kids die, but some people opposed to seeing this sort of thing in art are good at making up violent rhetoric, even though it's mostly out of their ass.

I wouldn't really like to kill kids in games, but I think that making everyone under the age of sixteen years invulnerable and innocent can be incredibly silly. I guess I might kill one or two like in Deus Ex (because it's a silly game) but it should be allowed like any other kind of death in a video game.

 

[RanD00M]

Death in video games is awwww riiiight. Even for kids. No. Wait. Especially for kids. Because most kids in games are useless, annoying and retarded, so they deserve it.

 

[RastaBadger]

Because most people see children as innocent and not the annoying little prats that they (mostly) are.

 

[infinity_turtles]

Never said it was complex or somehow a superb piece of art. I simply think that any piece of media that makes you feel something, not necessarily something complex, is a success. A cheap success, sure, but a success none the less. Kind of want to take a stab at the notion of there being such a thing as "good art", but I'm a little worn out from that specific debate.

That said, I do think the Dead Island Trailer was superbly put together. The way it was edited, the composition of most of the shots, that tiny bit of characterization there was of the family, and the choice of music were all really good. Sure, it was preying on a cultural weakness, and it's not like some high-concept thing that knocked my socks off, but for something that short, it did an amazing job at exploiting that weakness. So yeah, it's the equivalent of an emotional suckerpunch for most people, but damn if it wasn't a good suckerpunch.

Guess we've come down to the wire of the argument. Your opinion of what constitutes success or art seems to be vastly different from mine.

Well, I define success for media as making someone feel something. I define art as anything that performs it's function very well. Fairly simple definitions as far as I'm concerned, but I suppose the threshold for how well something has to perform it's function for me to call it art is a little ill-defined.

 

[timeadept]

Why do so many people hold this viewpoint? Opinions on things like Dead Island are divided to say the least, but why is it magically okay for adults to die terrible deaths, but as soon a it's a child we have to rally the troops because it's gone too far?

I'm sure in all the wars and what not we've had we've lost many great scientists and generals whose lives were much more important than some random child who may or may not amount to anything. I don't see outrage over them dying. I don't believe being adults makes it any better.

There's nothing magical about this and it has nothing to do with the "value" of a person who's dieing. A great general dieing is a setback, and at worst your side was just dealt a fatal blow. But the whole reason that general was fighting in the first place was to protect the innocent. He put himself in danger to protect his people and his country, because he values them MORE than his own life.

Now why is it ok for an adult to die but not a child? It really isn't. It's just MORE ok for an adult to die than it is for a child. Why? I don't have my own answer but I've heard some good ones. Like we have some instinct to protect our children, and it's stronger than any need we may feel to help our fellow man, usually. I just know that children "shouldn't" die, and i think that when the dead island shows the dead child they're really just going for "cheap" scare tactics. They don't bother making a connection with the player, and then making them fear for themselves, i can respect that, it takes skill to pull off. But no, they go for a cheap and easy shot, by hitting our instinct to protect our children. I see it this way, you could kick a guy in the nuts and you'll win the fight, but it doesn't make the tactic any more acceptable, such tactics are usually baned from sports for a reason.

Oh yeah, i don't entirely disagree with the tactic in the dead island trailer though. Honestly they had a short time to show the world what they've got, try connecting with the player over a short trailer and see how it works out for you, and good luck. But on the other hand it makes it look like the entire game is full of these cheap shots. So yeah, while i can see it's value, it's still a double edged sword.