Deep Space Nine- Were Bashir and Garak actually friends?

[DudeistBelieve]

I've been casually bingewatching Deep Space Nine again... I have noticed that it's really more of a game than a friendship with them.

Garak seemingly wants to open Bashir's naive eyes to the truth that there are games going on all around him for control of the truth, while Bashir wants Garak to say what the truth actually is.

But what I'm wonder is... are they actually friends the same way O'brian and Bashir are? Or Quark and Odo?

 

[shrekfan246]

Well, not all friendships are built equally. Would you not say that Bashir is, at the very least, the closest thing to a friend that Garak has? I think it could easily be argued that they have something of a friendly rivalry (and the fact that both stand is, in my opinion, part of the brilliance of Deep Space Nine), but for someone like Garak, why would that not be friendship? Bashir certainly considers him to be one, though there's a lot of evidence that backs up that being part of his naivete, while Cardassians in general just don't seem to value friendship in the same way that humans do. It is a game, because there's little that Cardassians seem to enjoy more than matching wits with others. Garak isn't necessarily interested in acknowledging his potential friendship with Bashir, and indeed there is quite a bit that seems to completely counteract any friendly relations between him and... well, most of the crew, but that lack of simplicity is precisely what makes their interactions so fascinating.

Now, it has been a few years since I last watched DS9, so I wish I could use specific examples more liberally, and I could very well be forgetting some critical events that explicitly state things. Though, I think you'd have an easier time arguing for a Bashir-Garak friendship than an Odo-Quark one (there's a fun discussion).

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Bashir saved Garak's life more than once, and Garak's later relationship with Odo, which also amounts to friendship, is far less cordial than Bashir and Garak's. How far in are you? Because Garak and Bashir's relationship really does grow as the series progress.

 

[Erttheking]

As close to being friends as anyone really can be with Garak. Garak enjoys Bashir's company, likes debating with him, wants to convince him of a more cynical mindset, and cares about Bashir's well being to some extent. It's as close to friendship as Garak is ever going to get.

 

[beyondbrainmatter]

I've been casually bingewatching Deep Space Nine again... I have noticed that it's really more of a game than a friendship with them.

Garak seemingly wants to open Bashir's naive eyes to the truth that there are games going on all around him for control of the truth, while Bashir wants Garak to say what the truth actually is.

But what I'm wonder is... are they actually friends the same way O'brian and Bashir are? Or Quark and Odo?

Yeah, pretty much. Check out "The Wire" (2x22) and "Our Man Bashir" (4x10).
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Wire_(episode)
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Our_Man_Bashir_(episode)

 

[Thaluikhain]

Apparently they were going to hint at more of a sexual relationship, but the writers chickened out. Kinda how you have a "bromance" nowdays to have a gay relationships on TV without any gay content.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Bashir saved Garak's life more than once, and Garak's later relationship with Odo, which also amounts to friendship, is far less cordial than Bashir and Garak's. How far in are you? Because Garak and Bashir's relationship really does grow as the series progress.

I watched the whole series once already. I've just been casually watching it when bored or eating, noticing things I didn't before.

Apparently they were going to hint at more of a sexual relationship, but the writers chickened out. Kinda how you have a "bromance" nowdays to have a gay relationships on TV without any gay content.

Really? I felt O'Brien and Bashir were the shipping the pair.

Garak was kinda faye and campy, but I always took it as not his real personality/being a trickster god that he is.

 

[happyninja42]

Yes I would say their relationship is genuine, if strange. I seem to recall at some point Garak making it known that he does care for Bashir. He's just very limited in how that relationship can be expressed, given his personal background and occupation.

But yes, they had a genuine relationship.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Yes. But the clever argument that DS9 made about their relationship was that friendship isn't about trust, it's about mutually understanding that true friends don't expect you to spill your guts. That ultimately mutual good will is more important than cliched arguments of sharing secrets.

Good will without necessarily being intimate. So I see Bashir and Garak as true friends... given they share good will, but not necessarily total trust. Which makes their relationship even closer than those that assume you should be able to demand secrets in a friendship. Bashir and Garak are friends solely because they both recognize there are things greater than themselves at play, and that distance is necessary for the sake of mutual cooperation.

Bashir and O'Brien's friendship (the true definition of 'bromance') is the more conventional buddy relationship built through hardship. But Bashir and Garak represent the friendship between warriors of the mind, separated by cosmic distances of cultures and politics... but can entertain why their mutual worlds need the other. A direct representation of the separation between the Federation and the Cardassian Empire ... but ultimately it is possible to bridge vastly different worlds of thought.

If Bashir and Garak's relationship were treated the same as O'Brien and Bashir ... one would wonder the real gravity of poor relations between their separate cultures.

Odo and Quark are not so much friends as they are necessary counterparts of balancing liberty wiyh social responsibility. Friendly rivals who ultimately require (or deserve) eachother in the end. Which makes their parting all the more sad.

After all... for a true figure of rigid justice and wholesale conformity to law and order, you need a figure of true subversiveness of regulation. Quark is the *necessary* answer to the more rigid and conformist policies of the Federation. DS9 was subversive of the supposed socialist utopia image of other Star Trek series, after all. That capitalism isn't actually bad if it leads to prosperity and shared indulgence and extravagance, and that luxury, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone, isn't a bad thing to pursue on its own. Go figure.

So Quark and Odo weren't really friends. But they were haunted by an idea of what made them so different and that ultimately brought them together and to be so very familiar, and exist almost on grounds of friendly detente. Everybody told Quark he was despicable, vile, selfish, deceitful ... and yet where did every Federation and Bajoran puritan end up? Quark's bar. Odo might have shared their resentment ... but he was the last person to understand why everyone went to Quark's regardless, so I see they're relationship built on trying to figure eachother out... and ultimately realising that they are not evil. Just alien.

 

[Wereduck]

Bashir saved Garak's life more than once, and Garak's later relationship with Odo, which also amounts to friendship, is far less cordial than Bashir and Garak's. How far in are you? Because Garak and Bashir's relationship really does grow as the series progress.

I watched the whole series once already. I've just been casually watching it when bored or eating, noticing things I didn't before.

Apparently they were going to hint at more of a sexual relationship, but the writers chickened out. Kinda how you have a "bromance" nowdays to have a gay relationships on TV without any gay content.

Really? I felt O'Brien and Bashir were the shipping the pair.

Garak was kinda faye and campy, but I always took it as not his real personality/being a trickster god that he is.

+1 on this; I was totally shipping those two right up until the last season.
</3

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

+1 on this; I was totally shipping those two right up until the last season.
</3

Also gets way more suspect when apparently O'Brien knows Julian's dimensions when making his matching and perfectly co-ordinated RAF outfit ... just putting it out there.

Would have made a cute couple.

Cardassian replicators which can barely make coffee. Yet perfectly matching outfits, handcrafted hologramatic program to find excuses to put Bashir in a dapper RAF outfit. The best Bashir can do is a banal tux. But military lifer O'Brien ... lifetime in the service, singing romanticised, manly songs of the old country with his squadmates...

We all know who programmed Bashir's clothes.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Bashir saved Garak's life more than once, and Garak's later relationship with Odo, which also amounts to friendship, is far less cordial than Bashir and Garak's. How far in are you? Because Garak and Bashir's relationship really does grow as the series progress.

I watched the whole series once already. I've just been casually watching it when bored or eating, noticing things I didn't before.

Apparently they were going to hint at more of a sexual relationship, but the writers chickened out. Kinda how you have a "bromance" nowdays to have a gay relationships on TV without any gay content.

Really? I felt O'Brien and Bashir were the shipping the pair.

Garak was kinda faye and campy, but I always took it as not his real personality/being a trickster god that he is.

+1 on this; I was totally shipping those two right up until the last season.
</3

considering the way Keiko treats O'Brien, it still is cannon as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously... Understand Keiko wanted to be a botanist, but god she's such a ***** on this show.

 

[happyninja42]

considering the way Keiko treats O'Brien, it still is cannon as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously... Understand Keiko wanted to be a botanist, but god she's such a ***** on this show.

I just chalk that up to them not finding a very good actress to play her. She had 2 settings, domestically annoyed, and disinterested, that's it.

 

[Namehere]

considering the way Keiko treats O'Brien, it still is cannon as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously... Understand Keiko wanted to be a botanist, but god she's such a ***** on this show.

I just chalk that up to them not finding a very good actress to play her. She had 2 settings, domestically annoyed, and disinterested, that's it.

Not a good actress? Are you serious? She's MASH alum man. This is an actress whose career spans latter seasons of MASH, TNG, and DS9 - I'm pretty sure she's not as bad an actress as you make out.

I think her character came across so badly because of writing choices more then the actress's abilities.

Frankly - on topic - I think Garak liked Bashir and Bashir liked Garak. What that means to Garak however... that's up in the air. I also think that Garak was initially drawn to Bashir, whether it was the intent of the writers of the show through out or not, because of his 'secret'. He stank of a secret and had interests in very medically unrelated fields. And the only thing better then a good spy is a bad one. You can catch and turn a bad one. So Garak being Garak, Bashir being naive? I'm fairly sure Bashir considered Garak a friend.

 

[DeimosMasque]

There is also the culutral differences between Earth humans and the Cardassian Union to consider.

Earth culture is basically an idealized western culture while the Cardassians are something entirely different.

Discipline, challenge, family and the State are the most important things to a Cardassian and Garrack has been deprived of two of those (Family and the State)

But the challenge of sparring wits with an untrusting Starfleet officer, the refine his spying skills even in exile? Those are things Garrick can get still. Then as Bashir becomes more seasoned and his nature revealed a new challenge presents.

To match wits with an intellectual superior... And still win.

Cardassians love a challenge and thier friendships and romantic endevors are shown to reflect this to. It's even mentioned that arguing is considered foreplay.

So I wpuld say that Garrick definitely considered Bashir his friend based on all that

 

[happyninja42]

considering the way Keiko treats O'Brien, it still is cannon as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously... Understand Keiko wanted to be a botanist, but god she's such a ***** on this show.

I just chalk that up to them not finding a very good actress to play her. She had 2 settings, domestically annoyed, and disinterested, that's it.

Not a good actress? Are you serious? She's MASH alum man. This is an actress whose career spans latter seasons of MASH, TNG, and DS9 - I'm pretty sure she's not as bad an actress as you make out.

I think her character came across so badly because of writing choices more then the actress's abilities.

Being in MASH doesn't automatically make you a good actress. And taking a look at her filmography since DS9, she's bascially been "special guest star" appearances on tv show after tv show, for decades. She had a short stint on THE OC, as a recurring character, but everything else has been one shot tv spots, or maybe a supporting character in a low budget movie, like Sidekicks. That's generally not the mark of a "talented thespian", when you are a "Hey it's that lady from DS9!" kind of recognition. So I stand by my opinion that she's not a very good actress. I've seen her in a lot of things, and she was, at best, a passable actress. But I would never say she had a particularly wide range of emotions in any of the roles I saw her in.

Now I would agree that a bad script is a bad script, but I've seen plenty of good actors with bad scripts, still pull a good performance, despite the terrible material. That's usually how you can tell they are good actors, when they are able to still act with a terrible role. Rosalind Chao never came across as anything other than a "meh" actress to me.

Which is fine really, I don't demand that ever actor be the greatest actor of their generation or some such tripe. The majority of actors are just average, doing average jobs, making average pay, doing average work. And that's fine, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize them for their average work, when the subject of quality of work comes up.

 

[Namehere]

considering the way Keiko treats O'Brien, it still is cannon as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously... Understand Keiko wanted to be a botanist, but god she's such a ***** on this show.

I just chalk that up to them not finding a very good actress to play her. She had 2 settings, domestically annoyed, and disinterested, that's it.

Not a good actress? Are you serious? She's MASH alum man. This is an actress whose career spans latter seasons of MASH, TNG, and DS9 - I'm pretty sure she's not as bad an actress as you make out.

I think her character came across so badly because of writing choices more then the actress's abilities.

Being in MASH doesn't automatically make you a good actress. And taking a look at her filmography since DS9, she's bascially been "special guest star" appearances on tv show after tv show, for decades. She had a short stint on THE OC, as a recurring character, but everything else has been one shot tv spots, or maybe a supporting character in a low budget movie, like Sidekicks. That's generally not the mark of a "talented thespian", when you are a "Hey it's that lady from DS9!" kind of recognition. So I stand by my opinion that she's not a very good actress. I've seen her in a lot of things, and she was, at best, a passable actress. But I would never say she had a particularly wide range of emotions in any of the roles I saw her in.

Now I would agree that a bad script is a bad script, but I've seen plenty of good actors with bad scripts, still pull a good performance, despite the terrible material. That's usually how you can tell they are good actors, when they are able to still act with a terrible role. Rosalind Chao never came across as anything other than a "meh" actress to me.

Which is fine really, I don't demand that ever actor be the greatest actor of their generation or some such tripe. The majority of actors are just average, doing average jobs, making average pay, doing average work. And that's fine, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize them for their average work, when the subject of quality of work comes up.

Alight. Whatever you say. After all, its opinion, right? Well like you say...

 

[DeimosMasque]

Oh! And if anyone wants to learn more about Garrick as a character I recommend the book "A Stitch in Time" it takes place after the series and is Garrick's autobiography as written by the actor who played him

It is a great read and does in fact give more insight on why he considers Bashir his best friend