Deepest Turn-Based RPG

[Daedalus1942]

What do you think is the deepest turn based RPG? Can be Japanese or otherwise.

By deepest I mean best character scaling, most diverse combat. Lot's of abilities, character classes and well fleshed out leveling system. Hit me with some titles.

Lately, I would have to say, most likely FFXIII. The battle system is actually quite complex, involving the right timing, right techniques, right Paradigms.
Also, Wild Arms 3. The gameplay for that game was immensely dense for the sequel to such a crappy Jrpg (Wild arms II, not One, I absolutely loved one).
Vagrant story's combat system was extremely hard to master as well as a lesser known game called Vandal Hearts II.

 

[Daedalus1942]

Pokemon puts pretty much every other turn based series to shame.

Hm... Except that its a SRPG, Disgaea completely puts Pokemon to shame in all points mentionned by the OP. I can't think of any turn-based game that is deeper than the Disgaea series.

The Vandal Hearts series was fairly deep (not sure about the new one on PSN) and also FF Tactics took alot of intelligence to master the battle system for that.

 

[Agayek]

ToEE was a fun play, but buggier than hell. Icewind Dale was pretty good, too. None of the compared to BG, though. The only game I think was in it's class was probably Planescape:Torment

Why can't they continue to make games like this? For Bioware, these days flash (aka cinematics) is more important than depth and replayability. THEN they say, "oh, wait, you can get our new DLC . . . ." . . if we pony up more $$$, of course.

Baldur's Gate 2 is hands down the greatest game ever made. Ever. It doesn't really feel like a turn-based game when you're playing. I know it is, but I just don't get a turn-based vibe from it, if that makes any sense.

I will say on Bioware's recent games, DA:O is quasi-close to BG in terms of quality. The combat is slightly better, but none of the characters are quite as awesome as Minsc & Boo (though Shale is actually damn close), and the bad guys aren't nearly as interesting. KotOR is very very close to match BG2 in quality as well, though I don't really count it as recent. Not quite as good due to some shenanigans with the combat and an aggravating inventory, but almost there.

 

[CmdrGoob]

NOT FO1 or 2. The combat in FO1&2 is certainly not very deep at all, it very quickly degenerates into spam eye/head shot, use occasional stimpack. It's extremely simplistic.

I'd say X-COM or Dungeon Crawl:Stone Soup are all good examples. Pokemon is deep, but I consider it overcomplicated.

 

[veloper]

Precisely. For deep turn-based combat, you shouldn't be looking at rpgs, but games like ufo or ja2.

After that come the tbs/rpg hybrid games like homm and aow.

Best turn-based combat in a pure cRPG is in ToEE, but the dialogue sucks.
FO1 for all it's strenghts has rather simplistic and unbalanced combat.

 

[Frank Pedersen]

I am not sure what you are aiming at in regards to "deeepest".
The first crpg that really opened my eyes for what was possible for a computer rpg was Ultima 6 and Ultima 7. Those games were way ahead of the competition in regards to story and involvement in the world you walked around in. From a pure tactical viewpoint it is perhaps not "deep" compared to later titles, but back in the days it really shined.