Defining Misogynism

[Nicaragua7]

Call me judgemental, but the second I saw that guy I thought he'd be an egomaniac, pompous arse. I gave him 1:30 mins, then skipped through randomly. He proved me right. All the usual obsession with assembling strict convoluted hierarchies and self-assuring his own hard-earned superiority. Yes, he's right there are some colossal bitches in this world who are just rude and obnoxious for the sake of it. I don't think this is new, I'm sure their mothers or fathers were just the same, and that's where they learnt it. There's no use rationalising it, they're just spiteful people. It's not fun being on the other end of it, but the best solution is to look unimpressed and cease paying attention to them before they've had a chance to finish their sentence. Good acting is paramount in these situations. The less you appear to care about them, the more upset a narcissist seems to get.

 

[Smeatza]

Well... Personally I look at games with the following distinctions: casual, mainstream, hardcore
AAA just means a game was released by major developer rather than an "independent" one. You could say that most AAA games are "mainstream" in this scheme.

See I wouldn't agree with those classifications.

Casual and hardcore refer to how the consumer plays the game, rather than what type of game it is.
For example, a hardcore World of Warcraft player could play for more than 5 hours a day, every day. A casual world of Warcraft player would play a few hours at a time for one month, and then cancel their subscription until they pick it up again in a few months time.
You might consider World of Warcraft a hardcore game because many people like to no-life it, but I play it casually. Angry Birds might be considered a casual game but I know people who play it for hours on end every day.

Mainstream refers to a game that has been successful. Games that are intended to be mainstream can find a cult following and vice versa. For example, Demon Souls was intended to be a cult classic (at least in the West) but it and it's sequels became so popular they reached the mainstream. On the other end you have games like Alan Wake that were intended to reach a mainstream crowd but ended up garnering a loyal cult following.
The upshot of this is that the responsibility for games to have better written female characters falls to the consumers, not the publishers or developers.

That is assuming that a game that would appeal to that 28% would be completely ignored by the rest of the 72%.

Which is exactly how the guys in finance would calculate it.

Then there is the prospect that more games that appeal to women would attract more women to play. A savvy set of game developers might be able to create a bigger market.

This doesn't help for the release of individual games though. A developer can hardly justify a flop with the excuse "well it'll bring us more players down the line."

I recently watched a "Jimquisition" video on pasta sauce. It was an enlightening view on what variety can do to a market. Many people including myself feel that the video game market is kind of stagnant ATM.

And while I enjoyed that particular video as well, the relevance to the video game industry is limited.
For example, it's not going to cost that much, it's not much of a risk, for a pasta sauce company to produce 40 different jars of pasta source for the purpose of market research. It would be EXTREMELY expensive for a publisher/developer of video games to produce 40 different video games for the purpose of market research. If a pasta source company wishes to test how well received a new sauce will be they can roll it out to a few key stores, they can get people to do taste tests etc. etc. A video game publisher/developer could technically do this as well, but if you have reached the point where you have a product for people to test, you've already spent that much money, made that much of an investment, that there is no point in not releasing it to the public.

To be honest I think the video game industry is only as stagnant as it's ever been. If not then slightly fresher.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Well... Personally I look at games with the following distinctions: casual, mainstream, hardcore
AAA just means a game was released by major developer rather than an "independent" one. You could say that most AAA games are "mainstream" in this scheme.

See I wouldn't agree with those classifications.

Casual and hardcore refer to how the consumer plays the game, rather than what type of game it is.
For example, a hardcore World of Warcraft player could play for more than 5 hours a day, every day. A casual world of Warcraft player would play a few hours at a time for one month, and then cancel their subscription until they pick it up again in a few months time.
You might consider World of Warcraft a hardcore game because many people like to no-life it, but I play it casually. Angry Birds might be considered a casual game but I know people who play it for hours on end every day.

Mainstream refers to a game that has been successful. Games that are intended to be mainstream can find a cult following and vice versa. For example, Demon Souls was intended to be a cult classic (at least in the West) but it and it's sequels became so popular they reached the mainstream. On the other end you have games like Alan Wake that were intended to reach a mainstream crowd but ended up garnering a loyal cult following.
The upshot of this is that the responsibility for games to have better written female characters falls to the consumers, not the publishers or developers.

That is assuming that a game that would appeal to that 28% would be completely ignored by the rest of the 72%.

Which is exactly how the guys in finance would calculate it.

Then there is the prospect that more games that appeal to women would attract more women to play. A savvy set of game developers might be able to create a bigger market.

This doesn't help for the release of individual games though. A developer can hardly justify a flop with the excuse "well it'll bring us more players down the line."

I recently watched a "Jimquisition" video on pasta sauce. It was an enlightening view on what variety can do to a market. Many people including myself feel that the video game market is kind of stagnant ATM.

And while I enjoyed that particular video as well, the relevance to the video game industry is limited.
For example, it's not going to cost that much, it's not much of a risk, for a pasta sauce company to produce 40 different jars of pasta source for the purpose of market research. It would be EXTREMELY expensive for a publisher/developer of video games to produce 40 different video games for the purpose of market research. If a pasta source company wishes to test how well received a new sauce will be they can roll it out to a few key stores, they can get people to do taste tests etc. etc. A video game publisher/developer could technically do this as well, but if you have reached the point where you have a product for people to test, you've already spent that much money, made that much of an investment, that there is no point in not releasing it to the public.

To be honest I think the video game industry is only as stagnant as it's ever been. If not then slightly fresher.

I think that there is a distinct difference between " hardcore" games vs " casual" games. for example, You do not find " casual" gamers in games like Darkfall and Eve. They may come and go, then not come back but they don't usually play these games.

I think there is much more to it than "how you play the game" vs the game being designed for how they play the game.
The game is either designed for more challenging gameplay or it isn't and those qualities will attract the types of players who enjoy that play style. I do not know any hardcore gamer who actually considers World of warcraft a hardcore game because it does not require the challenge and the skill levels needed to play it as hardcore games do. Simply put, Hardcore gamers become bored quickly with games that are too easy such as world of warcraft.

There are far more casual gamers than hardcore gamers, so of course the games made available to them that are designed for them are much fewer in numbers, so you have more hardcore gamers flocking to specific games, while the majority of gamers play more casual friendly games such as World of warcraft.

As a female gamer who enjoys games like Darkfall and Eve, I find it is even more difficult to find games that I would be considered the target audience simply because the market is already so small for both male and female populations that want more challenging games, they only really cater to males in that market.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

So.... it's wrong for women to want or to ask for something that isn't casual shovelware?

Maybe there isn't a market for more mainstream/hardcore games for women because no developer has had the balls or creative insight to make games like that.

There are many bro-hard, female sex-accessory games out there that completely turn me off and I am a male, so not only are these developers missing out on the female market, but they are also turning some of their potential MALE customers away with this bullshit.

I am failing to see your point here as it seems to be that you are indicating what is A LACK of real effort(shovelware) is also somehow evidence of real development or marketing effort.

Also, you must be high off of directly snorting steroids if you think games about babies, playing dress up, and the wii fit are going to appease women demanding more equal consideration and to be taken seriously by the gaming industry.

If anything your examples reinforce the issues brought up by the other side more than they help your case at all...

Women have a small market in "hardcore gaming", when divide up with in type of games, publishers, console, pc, developer, basically any variables the number grows smaller. Not to say there won't be overlap, but the truth is that women in "hardcore gaming" is insignificant, most thing a publisher and game developer could do is appease to their fan base while trying to garner more consumers. No one can try to appease to a base that just doesn't exist, or don't care about your product at all, as they have their own interest.

It sounds more like reality doesn't fit a belief you have. There is a female market, it doesn't fit your view of what a female market should be, because you figure that "hardcore gaming" was the norm. That's the mistake people keeps on making.

The thing is though, they do not have to alienate their male market by inputting some female content as well. As what they would consider a " Female hardcore gamer" I do not feel that our input is insignificant, and could be considered as well. I see this resulting in more content for everyone rather than less.

If we combine both male and female content I think the games would be better and also increase their market to appeal to both male and female populations in that market. I do realize that the hardcore market in itself is a much smaller market to begin with for both males and females, but that market can be expanded if they make minor changes as well.
TBH from what I see in the " hardcore" market, guys honestly do not care as much about whether some stupid quest has a female trope in it or not. It doesn't always have to be there. They care about the gameplay, the pvp, and mechanics the same as I do. Of course in games like Dantes Inferno, for example, a very old story where the female role is critical to the story line, that should be understood that cannot be changed, nor should they be asking it to be. However, when making quests and such in games where the entire game is not based on this set old story, these things can be changed and are not necessary for the story line, or they can have alternate endings, as we see now in many games and you can choose. That just adds more content rather than takes content away.

I admittedly thought the whole prostitute quest in Conan was actually funny for example, but I can see it being awkward for someone with different sense of humor than I have. Also, as a female gamer, I have no issue with women being portrayed as sexy, I just would like to see men portrayed in the same way as well. Or even better yet have many options available in customization allowing for people to make their character as sexy or as prudish as they like. That again adds content rather than takes it away.

I see no reason we cannot work together, both male and female to make better games and increase content. The idea that is somehow a bad idea is what I find strange.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

There IS a market for mainstream games that appeal to or at the very least don't turn off/away women. And it's not JUST women, I count myself, as a man, as someone that would like to see MORE games that break the stereotypes and clichés that haunt the gaming industry. You are SEEING that market speak up in forums and other discussions just like this, and the people that are speaking up are just a small part of that market.

Maybe it is you that would prefer to believe that such things just cannot be.

Are the terms mainstream and AAA interchangeable?
Because with the way the industry is at the moment, 28% of the console market probably wouldn't be enough of a market share to justify a "risky" AAA game.
I personally avoid AAA games and have had no problem avoiding cliches and stereotypes (including those that are commonly considered sexist) when doing so.

Well... Personally I look at games with the following distinctions: casual, mainstream, hardcore
AAA just means a game was released by major developer rather than an "independent" one. You could say that most AAA games are "mainstream" in this scheme.

That is assuming that a game that would appeal to that 28% would be completely ignored by the rest of the 72%. Then there is the prospect that more games that appeal to women would attract more women to play. A savvy set of game developers might be able to create a bigger market.

I recently watched a "Jimquisition" video on pasta sauce. It was an enlightening view on what variety can do to a market. Many people including myself feel that the video game market is kind of stagnant ATM.

I also group games the same as you, and agree the gaming market is pretty stagnant. But then again for my market, it really IS. Being female preferring more hardcore games and would rather be thrown into the wilderness with nothing and anyone can attack me at any time and I don't get to keep my Lo0tz when I die and I don't want any auto targeting as well. It isn't like there is much variety in my market regardless of whether you are male or female. My end for selection pretty much remains stagnant.

EDIT: hell these days I find myself on forums more than in the games due to how bored I am with the selection.