Depolarizing the Sexist Debate: Idle Thumbs and Girlfriend Mode on Borderlands 2

[Dastardly]

snip

Where there's smoke, there's likely fire.

The reason folks react so strongly even to these "minor" sexism controversies is because these kind of things only bubble to the surface because of what's going on underneath.

It may be willful sexism in some cases. Those are the easy ones to get mad about, and they're not as easy to find. The bad ones are those issues that arise because someone "just wasn't thinking"--because, in fact, they show a person's "default setting."

Sexism doesn't have to be, "Ha! You're a woman! Let's make sport of you!" The more common and insidious type goes more like, "Oops! Sorry, women, didn't see you there..." The developer who made the "girlfriend mode" comment, for instance -- it's not that he hates women, it's that he demonstrated that, on a pretty basic level, he tends to feel that girlfriends aren't on the gaming radar. His careless comment was an outgrowth of an inner inequality.

The game isn't sexist because of this, but that dev's tendencies seem to be. And it's worth making a stink over. The only way to get to the root of the problem is for people to stop and think about things that, up to now, they haven't maybe been stopping or thinking about.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Apparently when confronted with needing a word to mean 'not very good at games' the first thing this guy thinks of is 'women.' And that shows the deeper underlying problem with his outlook.

Yes, it isn't as bad as saying that there's nothing wrong with rape. It's not as bad as Todd Akin's comments. But it perhaps shows how deep-rooted the problem is. This isn't just some grand issue out in the open and being discussed (which the Tomb Raider rape controversy would seem to suggest) it is a general mindset of some people working in the industry. Perhaps what makes sexism so much harder to fight is that so many people try to write it off as a light hearted joke or nothing particularly important.

See, this is the idea that I have a problem with. Aren't you sort of assuming that that's the case? It can very easily be interpreted a different way...ie. "my girlfriend isn't very good at these sorts of games, so my first thought is 'girlfriend mode'."

"Women" don't enter the picture. If anything, the guy's most likely making a reference based on personal experience and not lambasting the fairer sex by insinuating that every last one of them is terrible at shooter games.

Frankly, if it were a woman who claimed it was "boyfriend mode," I wouldn't give one, two, or even three damns about it. I'm genuinely at a loss over the apparently vast amount of vitriol this one stupid comment has inspired.

Exactly.

One man's comments are not the problem. The problem is that this happens, that it's in the culture and part of people's mindsets.

If your first thought when you hear "thief" is "Jew" there's a problem. It's not destructive if you don't mean anything by it, but it's a symptom of a sick culture.

I'm not sure if you're likening what that dev said to that last bit there or not... I really hope not. :/ If anything, that line of thought is indicative of ignorance on an individual level, not necessarily a reflection of the culture at large.

For the record, my first thought upon reading the word "thief" was a DnD-esque Rogue; hood, daggers, mask, the whole nine.

 

[Spirit356]

snip

Where there's smoke, there's likely fire.

The reason folks react so strongly even to these "minor" sexism controversies is because these kind of things only bubble to the surface because of what's going on underneath.

It may be willful sexism in some cases. Those are the easy ones to get mad about, and they're not as easy to find. The bad ones are those issues that arise because someone "just wasn't thinking"--because, in fact, they show a person's "default setting."

Sexism doesn't have to be, "Ha! You're a woman! Let's make sport of you!" The more common and insidious type goes more like, "Oops! Sorry, women, didn't see you there..." The developer who made the "girlfriend mode" comment, for instance -- it's not that he hates women, it's that he demonstrated that, on a pretty basic level, he tends to feel that girlfriends aren't on the gaming radar. His careless comment was an outgrowth of an inner inequality.

The game isn't sexist because of this, but that dev's tendencies seem to be. And it's worth making a stink over. The only way to get to the root of the problem is for people to stop and think about things that, up to now, they haven't maybe been stopping or thinking about.

Well lets be honest here there's a reason that sometimes women aren't on the gaming radar and that is because throughout gamings history the biggest demographic in the industry was men. Games aren't like music or cinema in which there was an instant universal appeal. For the longest time video games were seen exclusively as the domain of the young man. Despite all the discussion of games being an artform or whatever games are a product published by a business and that's why games are still being developed for the main demographic and that's why we keep getting FIFA,COD,GTA and DOA because after years or marketing and research they have figured out that those games are what that demogrpahic wants. Is this changing? Of course, one only needs to look at the success of the DS, Wii and Indie markets to see that there are more and more games being aimed outside of the male demographic.

Is it sexism? Maybe in some cases but in the majority I'd simply say it's a developer/publisher/marketer trying to aim their product at a specific demographic and gaming will only change when the demographics begins to change in any significant way.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

snip.

snip

snip.

Yes, exactly. That's exactly what my last statement was meant to do, and your response seems pretty angry to me. Maybe not all caps insulting my family angry but calling me ignorant and questioning my motivations?

You very obviously didn't do that for the comments that the Borderlands developer made, you just assumed they were a joke, but the second I make an assumption that targets 16-24 white males I get a response within seconds telling me how wrong I am.

You should realise I'm not the target group that your last comment was aimed towards? Also you'll have to factor in that your comment was in text with no other way for me to discern it since there is no way to discern inflection via text? So when I read your comment I could only take it seriously and thought that you were being hypocritical and thats what I was informing you of. Perhaps next time a joke tag would be more appropriate? Also I assumed it was a joke because it would be near suicidal for a game developer to publically say 'Women are completely inferior to men in everyway when it comes to gaming and therefore we have created this character to give women the natural role that they were born to do i.e. to be a submissive follower, only there to further A MANS goals and wishes.' Perhaps that was what he meant all along.

Glasgow (white), male, using a computer with an internet connection and on a gaming website, a past-time that is a relatively expensive hobby... So the only thing you don't fit is the age range, which is probably the least important of the categories (I nearly made the original 16-30, in which case we wouldn't be having this discussion)

And yes, my comment was in text without anything to denote tone. So was the comment made by John Hemingway for most people. Which means that the majority of people who read it, read it entirely with context. So why exactly are so many people claiming it was clearly tongue in cheek? It could be read any way at all.

And don't try to reductio ad absurdum this. Of course he wouldn't make that comment, and to suggest that he would is ridiculous, which is why I didn't even come close to suggesting it. What I said was that his comment shows an underlying attitude to women, in that purely from the context of his words 'I want to make, for the lack of a better term, the girlfriend skill tree. This is, I love Borderlands and I want to share it with someone, but they suck at first-person shooters.'

'They suck at first-person shooters.'
'For lack of a better term, the girlfriend skill tree.'

So apparently when thinking of people who suck at first person shooters, the first people he thinks of are girls.

When I think of people who suck at first person shooters I think of people who've never played them and people who are new to them. I don't imagine a gender at all, and the fact that he does suggests something to me.

 

[Schadrach]

It was another straw on the camels back.

Entirely offtopic, but every time I hear something referred to as another straw on the camel's back, I immediately think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC6PWk9UlOs . If you try to read the lyrics from the image in the video, it's easier to use the link in the description -- much easier on the eyes. Fair warning, that guy is more than a bit of a misanthropist.

And we would believe everything was alright.
Another cross to bear. Another scar to hide.
Clinging to a dream at the end of the pain.
Another straw on the camel?s back.

Also, another new avatar? Not happy with the one with the red "paint"?

the second is that apparently when confronted with needing a word to mean 'not very good at games' the first thing this guy thinks of is 'women.' And that shows the deeper underlying problem with his outlook.

Rather, the first thing he thinks is "girlfriend" and we don't know enough of his internal perspective to generalize it to "all women." Hell, for all we know, he was thinking of it as "significant other mode", and from his perspective as a straight male that logically become "girlfriend mode." I could just as easily argue that the fact that he used the phrase "girlfriend mode" and not "girl mode" was equally telling.

This is actually one of my biggest problems with a lot of these discussions, you end up with an awful lot of women in them who claim that they want to be treated as individuals, yet take any comment about any woman or subset of women as a collective statement about all women.

Fellatio refers to one very specific act. You were looking for cunnilingus, which is the same idea as the first, but different.

No I think he means fellatio. As in why is there an irrational fear of putting your dick into an vagina with teeth when most guys are pretty into the idea of putting their dick into a mouth when those usually has teeth.

At least that how I understood it.

That's how I took that too. To be fair though, vagina dentata is a very very old concept, so it's entirely possible we just don't "get" it within it's original context? It's certainly high on the list of examples of body horror, especially for something that, as you note, a lot of men seem to be more than willing to do something that places them in more or less the same position as.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

the second is that apparently when confronted with needing a word to mean 'not very good at games' the first thing this guy thinks of is 'women.' And that shows the deeper underlying problem with his outlook.

Rather, the first thing he thinks is "girlfriend" and we don't know enough of his internal perspective to generalize it to "all women." Hell, for all we know, he was thinking of it as "significant other mode", and from his perspective as a straight male that logically become "girlfriend mode." I could just as easily argue that the fact that he used the phrase "girlfriend mode" and not "girl mode" was equally telling.

This is actually one of my biggest problems with a lot of these discussions, you end up with an awful lot of women in them who claim that they want to be treated as individuals, yet take any comment about any woman or subset of women as a collective statement about all women.

But why would he think of significant others or girlfriends at all?

The first thing that pops into my mind when I think of people who 'suck at first-person shooters' (his words) is 'beginner' or 'newbie' or even 'noob.' I could think of dozens of examples before I even started to touch on anything related to a gender. But his first idea was apparently (and his exact words are 'for lack of a better term') girlfriend.

As he has put it to us the very first thing he thinks of is related to gender, more specifically the female gender, and he then goes on to say right afterwards 'people who suck at first person shooters.'

So this wasn't just some off hand comment about girlfriends or significant others, this was referring directly to people who suck at first person shooters, for whom he can't find a better description.

 

[Spirit356]

snip.

snip

snip.

snip

snip

Glasgow (white), male, using a computer with an internet connection and on a gaming website, a past-time that is a relatively expensive hobby... So the only thing you don't fit is the age range, which is probably the least important of the categories (I nearly made the original 16-30, in which case we wouldn't be having this discussion)

And yes, my comment was in text without anything to denote tone. So was the comment made by John Hemingway for most people. Which means that the majority of people who read it, read it entirely with context. So why exactly are so many people claiming it was clearly tongue in cheek? It could be read any way at all.

And don't try to reductio ad absurdum this. Of course he wouldn't make that comment, and to suggest that he would is ridiculous, which is why I didn't even come close to suggesting it. What I said was that his comment shows an underlying attitude to women, in that purely from the context of his words 'I want to make, for the lack of a better term, the girlfriend skill tree. This is, I love Borderlands and I want to share it with someone, but they suck at first-person shooters.'

'They suck at first-person shooters.'
'For lack of a better term, the girlfriend skill tree.'

So apparently when thinking of people who suck at first person shooters, the first people he thinks of are girls.

When I think of people who suck at first person shooters I think of people who've never played them and people who are new to them. I don't imagine a gender at all, and the fact that he does suggests something to me.

Perhaps Hemingway has previously looked at the demographics on the previous game or other FPS and noticed that the majority of players are male and therefore assumes that women are less likely to have played one before? Like Schadrach is saying there are a potential infinite number of ways that Hemingway came to the conclusion of calling it 'girlfriend mode'.

I'd like to note that at least he isn't exclusionary with his product. The other day while watching TV I saw an advert for Loreal, it was the traditional stuff, a women bouncing around showing off the new mascara when suddenly at the end the women says 'Say it with me girls, becuase we're worth it.' I had to sit for 15 minutes at the sheer sexism I had just witnessed. A MNC like Loreal had just suddenly excluded me from being 'worth it' for their product. Now I know that I, a Scottish hairy man am not the key demogrpahic for the make-up industry but for my gender to be dismissed in such a sexist way is completely wrong. I urge you all to aid me on my quest to stamp out the rampant sexism in the make-up industry.

 

[razer17]

I'm sick of this overly PC crap, everyone too easily offended learn to take a damn joke.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-double-standards-were-all-guilty-of/

I believe Point Number 4 is the one we should all be aware of here.

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1991-18334-001

http://www.chron.com/life/article/Race-related-blog-drawing-white-hot-reactions-1789947.php

Now maybe it would be very hard to make a joke about you (I'm assuming caucasian, Western, 16-24, middle-class man) but the evidence would suggest that if someone started to, you suddenly wouldn't think it was very funny. Now obviously since this is the internet you can pretend all you want, and maybe you personally genuinely wouldn't be offended, but here's a nice basic rule to live by.

If you're not one of the people being joked about, don't just assume the joke didn't cause offence.

Because frankly, what exactly do you know about being talked down to simply because of your gender/class/race?

Firstly, linking to only an abstract means nothing. Secondly the abstract tells me all it is discussing is that people who make jokes are less likely to think that other people who joke are indicating their true beliefs. That study isn't really relevant here at all.

Offense is taken, not given, in a joke. There's a difference between making a joke and flat out deliberately insulting someone. If someone makes a joke you can choose to be offended, or you can take it as a joke.

Now, you talk about not being offended because it's not my demographic being joked about, but guess what, even if it is my demographic, I can take a joke. I have made, and have heard jokes about my heritage (being German maybe you can guess what kind of jokes I made). IF a friend or a comedian on TV makes a Nazi joke, I take it as a joke. If someone I don't know or don't like called me a Nazi, I'd be offended.

 

[theblindedhunter]

It's noted on Problem Machine [http://problemmachine.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/binary-world/] that reading girls can't shoot from girlfriend mode is rather heteronormative, and belies our own prejudices.

Bravo on a very intelligently written post, but this especially hit my interest, as I hadn't considered it, and am a little embarrassed. I certainly don't think it was on the speaker's mind either, but still.

I'll rejoin this conversation later provided it hasn't gone to hell. Or hasn't already. For now, I must to college for college-ing.

 

[BreakfastMan]

snip

Where there's smoke, there's likely fire.

The reason folks react so strongly even to these "minor" sexism controversies is because these kind of things only bubble to the surface because of what's going on underneath.

It may be willful sexism in some cases. Those are the easy ones to get mad about, and they're not as easy to find. The bad ones are those issues that arise because someone "just wasn't thinking"--because, in fact, they show a person's "default setting."

Sexism doesn't have to be, "Ha! You're a woman! Let's make sport of you!" The more common and insidious type goes more like, "Oops! Sorry, women, didn't see you there..." The developer who made the "girlfriend mode" comment, for instance -- it's not that he hates women, it's that he demonstrated that, on a pretty basic level, he tends to feel that girlfriends aren't on the gaming radar. His careless comment was an outgrowth of an inner inequality.

The game isn't sexist because of this, but that dev's tendencies seem to be. And it's worth making a stink over. The only way to get to the root of the problem is for people to stop and think about things that, up to now, they haven't maybe been stopping or thinking about.

This, basically. Was about to post something similar, but I see I was beaten to it, so I throw my weight behind this statement.

 

[theblindedhunter]

Offense is taken, not given, in a joke. There's a difference between making a joke and flat out deliberately insulting someone. If someone makes a joke you can choose to be offended, or you can take it as a joke.

So, I'm sorry to be rude, but what utter crap.
First of all, you don't "choose" to be offended or not. It's an emotional reaction to insult toward something you hold dear. It's somewhat like saying you choose to feel pain when you're punched in the gut. Your mind has total control over the pain you feel, what the hell is your problem?!
I'd try to argue this better, but sadly don't have the time at the moment, so I'll offer this with your Nazi example, and relate it to a "joke" that offended me not so long ago:
If someone started making a joke to the effect that all people of German descent are actually Nazis, despise jews, and are worthy of death (like Nazis apparently are)... and it actually seemed that not only did they actually think this joke had veracity behind it, and the culture as a whole seemed to agree with it as well, would you not be pissed the hell off? Would you really not feel anger at someone spouting bullshit hate and bile about you to an agreeable audience to get them to laugh?
Maybe you wouldn't, sure, but I really don't think you can just dismiss those who would as being "too sensitive".

 

[excalipoor]

Because frankly, what exactly do you know about being talked down to simply because of your gender/class/race?

Class or race? Nothing, I suppose. I have been labeled an all around bad man for being male and believing that these are things people just need to get over though. And I do get insulted online for my gender. Mostly by other males, but I fail to see the difference. Dickheads gonna dick, and they WILL cling on to anything they can get before ripping it to shreds. Gender specific abuse isn't exclusive to women.

Here's a story that I think is relevant. Last Friday, I had a girl over at my place. We had dinner, blah blah, but at one point she displayed curiosity over my library of games. So I popped in Portal and gave her the controller. This is someone who has never played anything beyond The Sims and Solitaire. You know what happened? She just couldn't wrap her head around moving and turning at the same time. Kept getting stuck on doors, for fucks sake! Anyone not used to a controller or 3d gameplay is going to suck at it.

But who else are you really going to introduce to gaming? Your dad? Your neighbour? There's a good chance many your friends already are, or at least were gamers. No, the obvious answer is your significant other. And as much as I'd love to, I've never dated a gamer. The statement is assuming that girlfriends only game by proxy. You don't have to tell me that it's not true, but my (very limited, obviously) own experience reflects this. There's absolutely no ill will behind it, just a careless assertion based on a stereotype, the implications of which weren't considered.

You can complain about the boy's club mentality going on, but more and more women are getting into the business (so I've heard, don't quote me on that!). I'd imagine it'd have start showing sooner or later. The change is happening, but it's not going to happen overnight by jumping on every chance to point out an inequality. It took almost 150 years after the Emancipation Proclamation before the US elected its first black president. Gaming has been mainstream barely 15 years, and female gamers much less than that. Not that I think that it should (or will) take 150 years...

Feminists need to stop crying wolf. That goes for men's rights movements as well. As long as someone is playing the victim, it's just going to antagonize the opposition. That's never going to lead to equality.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

The thugs and goons in borderlands aren't exactly the moral type. If there were any women among them, then they'd be subject to constant rape and abuse. I've known this since I was 13. I think it's a good thing FOR WOMEN that they aren't included as the hordes of baddies.

Also as to multiplayer, you just know that some retards are gonna go to the girl's dead body and tea-bag even more so that the male's. So women like to be tea-bagged is it? well that's interesting.

 

[Skratt]

I tend to take things in stride. I certainly hope we avoid misogyny wherever possible, but sometimes I feel that we take things to the extreme when analyzing possible cases of sexism.

As a father of three girls I can tell you without a doubt that there are some things that just come naturally. My wife and I are anything but girly and yet all three of my daughters are very feminine - they like pink and dresses and pretty much anything cute and cuddly. My oldest daughter just got the Lego Friends set for her birthday, and despite popular belief that this toy is misogynistic, she fucking loves it. She also got some DC Super Friends (batman & cat woman) toys along with a spider man action figure and a Lego Monster Battles kit, and loves all of that too. I almost forgot that she has a princess dress that she wears while playing with her bat mobile.

My daughters all pretend to be monsters and heroes. They like dragons and dinosaurs, link and zelda, and think that rosalina has a pretty dress, and yet some days they just want to heal sick animals or cuddle with a baby doll. I think as long as we as parents are open to letting our daughters be what they want to be, we can forgive some of the corporate catering to the stereotype.

 

[Techno Squidgy]

Apparently when confronted with needing a word to mean 'not very good at games' the first thing this guy thinks of is 'women.' And that shows the deeper underlying problem with his outlook.

Yes, it isn't as bad as saying that there's nothing wrong with rape. It's not as bad as Todd Akin's comments. But it perhaps shows how deep-rooted the problem is. This isn't just some grand issue out in the open and being discussed (which the Tomb Raider rape controversy would seem to suggest) it is a general mindset of some people working in the industry. Perhaps what makes sexism so much harder to fight is that so many people try to write it off as a light hearted joke or nothing particularly important.

Exactly.

One man's comments are not the problem. The problem is that this happens, that it's in the culture and part of people's mindsets.

If your first thought when you hear "thief" is "Jew" there's a problem. It's not destructive if you don't mean anything by it, but it's a symptom of a sick culture.

What if you think "Black Man"? ^_^

Same issue, slightly different manifestation.

OT: It's refreshing to see someone taking a relatively balanced view on all this. Personally I think it's going to take a few years for this mindset to precipitate out of the dev community. There's still going to be a lot of people in the industry stuck in their mindset (set being the keyword there) probably until they leave. However, as new developers enter that mindset will be pushed into the minority and eventually out. I hope to work as a programmer once I finish Uni in 3-4 years time so maybe things will be better by then, maybe I 'll have to work change things from the inside. Time will tell

 

[razer17]

Offense is taken, not given, in a joke. There's a difference between making a joke and flat out deliberately insulting someone. If someone makes a joke you can choose to be offended, or you can take it as a joke.

So, I'm sorry to be rude, but what utter crap.
First of all, you don't "choose" to be offended or not. It's an emotional reaction to insult toward something you hold dear. It's somewhat like saying you choose to feel pain when you're punched in the gut. Your mind has total control over the pain you feel, what the hell is your problem?!
I'd try to argue this better, but sadly don't have the time at the moment, so I'll offer this with your Nazi example, and relate it to a "joke" that offended me not so long ago:
If someone started making a joke to the effect that all people of German descent are actually Nazis, despise jews, and are worthy of death (like Nazis apparently are)... and it actually seemed that not only did they actually think this joke had veracity behind it, and the culture as a whole seemed to agree with it as well, would you not be pissed the hell off? Would you really not feel anger at someone spouting bullshit hate and bile about you to an agreeable audience to get them to laugh?
Maybe you wouldn't, sure, but I really don't think you can just dismiss those who would as being "too sensitive".

You really don't have to apologise for being rude, I'm not about to get offended by your use of the word crap. I mean, what happened to the days when sticks and stones was true? People these days ARE just too soft. I'm not saying we should never be offended, but we're getting to a point where everything anyone says is offensive to SOMEONE. If I make an offhand sexist or racist joke, does that mean I am either of those things? No. I've made jokes about all these "taboo" subjects, including jokes about whites and men, both of which I am. Strangely making jokes about yourself are fine but not about someone else.

Let me give another example. I have a friend who is Asian. We used to joke about him being a terrorist, and he would make a joke about if I had killed any minorities lately, or if I've taken up heroin (because I'm half Scottish, and apparently Scottish people all tkae drugs). We both knew we were joking, and neither of us were offended. However, at one point, on a night out, someone called my mate a "Paki sand ******". IT was obviously not a joke, and he was very offended, I was offended because that's just not on, and all our other mates were pretty offended by this racist jerkoff.

My point being, that there is a difference between joking and standing on a soapbox shouting about blacks shouldn't be allowed in the country, gays are evil or whatever other prejudices people have. I'm not saying we should never be offended, I'm saying we shouldn't feel offended when people don't mean to cause you offense. I'm not even saying that ALL comedy is harmless. There's a difference between, say, Jim Davidson, who's racist and sexist, or Al Murray who is both of those things, but in a way that you know he's obviously joking. You might find DAvidson offensive because he probably believes half of what he said, it's hard to get upset in the same way with Murray because it's obviously a ruse.

 

[Signa]

Maybe at times. But saying something is 'just a joke' should not protect you from criticism.

Hold up, hold up. Obviously, there's going to be a line somewhere, but saying that is saying certain issues can not be funny, or never taken in a non-serious context. It's the whole "rape and Muhammad jokes are NEVER OK" mentality that is kinda dangerous. Making things into taboos has never helped anyone. In the case of BL2, this was far closer to a joke than an insult. Even if it was insulting, the correct response is to just say "Hey, I know you were joking, but watch it, because that was kinda insulting." Even asking them to take it back is being too forceful for the situation.

As for crossing that line, I'm pretty sure I couldn't say "I think you're a fucking dumbass asshole. Just kidding," to someone and expect to not be called out on it. You're right there.

 

[Phasmal]

snip

Where there's smoke, there's likely fire.

The reason folks react so strongly even to these "minor" sexism controversies is because these kind of things only bubble to the surface because of what's going on underneath.

It may be willful sexism in some cases. Those are the easy ones to get mad about, and they're not as easy to find. The bad ones are those issues that arise because someone "just wasn't thinking"--because, in fact, they show a person's "default setting."

Sexism doesn't have to be, "Ha! You're a woman! Let's make sport of you!" The more common and insidious type goes more like, "Oops! Sorry, women, didn't see you there..." The developer who made the "girlfriend mode" comment, for instance -- it's not that he hates women, it's that he demonstrated that, on a pretty basic level, he tends to feel that girlfriends aren't on the gaming radar. His careless comment was an outgrowth of an inner inequality.

The game isn't sexist because of this, but that dev's tendencies seem to be. And it's worth making a stink over. The only way to get to the root of the problem is for people to stop and think about things that, up to now, they haven't maybe been stopping or thinking about.

Thanks, that was pretty much what I wanted to say.

The day when people stop making a fuss about me playing games is the day perhaps we can move past me having to point out sexism.
Hell, there are people who will be pissed off that I self-identify as a girl gamer.
Why do I do this?
To avoid the auto-penis. When people don't automatically assume I'm a dude when I say gamer, then I'll drop the `girl`.
Til then, gaming has growing up to do.
As I've said endlessly, its an entire meduim of entertainment. To suggest it belongs to dudes is laughable.

EDIT: Just wanna say, sometimes I do think that for me at least it's been a little better recenly. My new guild in GW2 that I'm officering in with a few of my mates, we've had a few new people and so far nobody has made a big deal. Though the first time I said Hi to someone on the mumble server when a new person was there he went `Oh fuck, I thought that was my character saying hi!`.

 

[marche45]

Well done.

Seriously,this is a welcome change from the dozens threads we had about the subject that were basically just circle jerks.

 

[Ninjamedic]

I'm always reminded of the Catcher in the Rye episode of South Park whenever this argument comes up.

As I've said endlessly, its an entire meduim of entertainment. To suggest it belongs to dudes is laughable.

I just have to stop to ask, who is suggesting that Computer Games belong to dudes?