Deserters Will Be Shot

[Soviet Heavy]

Order No. 227 was dropped in October, 1942. The Russian counterattack across the Volga and the encirclement of the German 6th Army during Operation Uranus started in November 1942. The use of blocking troops during Enemy At the Gates is anachronistic.

 

[Sansha]

It's meant to keep people from deserting. Deserting is a treasonous act, so they are traitors. Plus, if they get picked up by the enemy, they could very well tell them where your encampments are, when supply shipments come, what your numbers are, and so on.

This exactly. It's not a matter of punishment, it's safety. If you're frightened enough to run away from your countrymen, you're definitely not going to have the mental fortitude to resist when you get captured and probed for information.

 

[J Tyran]

Snip

That was quite the politically correct ramble there. The problem is that basically of that is far left spoon fed political nonsense. Especially the part of demonizing terrorists. I'm sorry but these people demonize them selves, mutilating women, forcing children to fight, murdering anyone who is disagrees with them in the most brutal inhumane ways. Then you go on and demonize the military branches of the western world, who are the ones who serve willingly to protect the right for you to say what you did.

Islamic terrorists like IS and Boko Haram are not nice people but don't go trying to kid anyone with half a brain that Western soldiers are "protecting our rights", thats naive. Almost childishly so, the military just act to enforce their nations foreign policy. For whatever that entails, economic protectionism, geopolitical strategy and a variety of other reasons that have little or nothing to do with "FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!".

They are mercenaries, they join the military for pay, opportunity and training and get sold on the "heroes" mentality so many do not even realise it.

I can say the same about your opinion that "soldiers are evil" is childish, there will always be bullies but the vast majority of those in the army are sane with morals who do want to do good.

Considering I never said soldiers were "evil" this is a pretty poor attempt, I just said they are mercenaries enacting a governments foreign policy whilst often being deluded into not realising it. After misrepresenting my statement you try to call me childish? This from someone that believes in "good vs evil"? "Good guys" and "bad guys"?

Really?

 

[Dalisclock]

Why though? Does the army or navy or boy scouts have nothing better to do? I was watching Enemy at the Gates, and yeah for the first five minutes all they did was waste ammunition on a couple of poor guys trying to swim through freezing water. It's not like they are traitors or anything.

It sets bad precedent to let people just run away from the army during battle. Let people get away with it and everyone else realizes they can just refuse to fight. Especially in a situation when a lot of your troops were conscripted and had no choice if they wanted to be there or not.

That being said, most countries don't actually execute deserters(the last US execution for desertion was in 1945). Kicking people out of the military on a dishonorable discharge and/or sending them to prison is more common.

As far as Enemy at the Gates is concerned, the Soviets were very brutal in this regard. Their homeland was under invasion and they took Stalin's Order of "Not one step backward" pretty literally, to my understanding. Also, Soviet soldiers who were taken prisoner by the Germans and later rescued would be sent to Gulags(which are basically concentration camps)for the rest of their lives, so yeah.

 

[FalloutJack]

Really?

They say that god is supposedly beyond good and evil. Well, the jury's still out on that, but one thing is for certain: Humans aren't. It's naive to categorize every human being in a black-and-white perspective, but it's crazy to think that just because the world isn't black and white that those two colors do not exist. Some people are describing the motivations of governments lately as a black-and-grey morality. There are people who do bad shit, and they enjoy it. Some of them are soldiers. It happens.

 

[Cartographer]

Really?

They say that god is supposedly beyond good and evil. Well, the jury's still out on that, but one thing is for certain: Humans aren't. It's naive to categorize every human being in a black-and-white perspective, but it's crazy to think that just because the world isn't black and white that those two colors do not exist. Some people are describing the motivations of governments lately as a black-and-grey morality. There are people who do bad shit, and they enjoy it. Some of them are soldiers. It happens.

Good and Evil are human constructs.
No one wakes up to think of themselves as the "bad guy".
The Good vs Evil, Us vs Them, Black-and-white crap is exactly what he was talking about when he talks about soldiers getting sold on the "heroism" of the job. Yeah, you do things you would be proud to say you have done, but only an idiot thinks they are done out of the kindness of your country's heart. As a soldier you are 100% the face of foreign policy, if your country wants you to be nice, respectful, helpful and the like you will be; if they want you to enforce a "regime change" 'cus the old regime isn't selling oil at the "right" prices, you get to do that too.

 

[beastro]

You're basically forcing someone who may not have the guts or fortitude to handle being a soldier to BE a soldier.

Tough, it's war and the least of the many evils of it.

There's a reason why NCOs were equipped with a pike in the days of muskets - it was to prod and keep the men pushing forward.

 

[J Tyran]

Really?

They say that god is supposedly beyond good and evil. Well, the jury's still out on that, but one thing is for certain: Humans aren't. It's naive to categorize every human being in a black-and-white perspective, but it's crazy to think that just because the world isn't black and white that those two colors do not exist. Some people are describing the motivations of governments lately as a black-and-grey morality. There are people who do bad shit, and they enjoy it. Some of them are soldiers. It happens.

Morals are relative but yeah I'm not saying there are no good actions and no bad actions, I wouldn't even claim countries never send their military to good things either. Many countries send their armed forces on purely humanitarian missions, after natural disasters for example. No bullshit, no "bringing freedom" or any geopolitical agenda they just use the in place logistical capability and the trained individuals the military have to help. Like in the aftermath of the 2011 earthquake and Tsunami in Japan.

Good and Evil are human constructs.
No one wakes up to think of themselves as the "bad guy".
The Good vs Evil, Us vs Them, Black-and-white crap is exactly what he was talking about when he talks about soldiers getting sold on the "heroism" of the job. Yeah, you do things you would be proud to say you have done, but only an idiot thinks they are done out of the kindness of your country's heart. As a soldier you are 100% the face of foreign policy, if your country wants you to be nice, respectful, helpful and the like you will be; if they want you to enforce a "regime change" 'cus the old regime isn't selling oil at the "right" prices, you get to do that too.

Governments and rulers have always made the most of the "we're the good guys and they're the bad guys" idea, it's one of the reasons its so pervasive because its one of the first things in the propaganda grab bag and it always bloody works.

I'm not anti military or think less of people that join, its regular solid pay, you can pick up training and education and many valuable life skills. For those that are willing to join it can be worthwhile on those grounds alone, I can certainly see the appeal.

 

[Thaluikhain]

You're basically forcing someone who may not have the guts or fortitude to handle being a soldier to BE a soldier.

Tough, it's war and the least of the many evils of it.

There's a reason why NCOs were equipped with a pike in the days of muskets - it was to prod and keep the men pushing forward.

Do you have a source for that? Certainly, that's the sort of thing NCOs would do, but a pike seems to be a very poor choice to do it with.

 

[Strelok]

Why though? Does the army or navy or boy scouts have nothing better to do? I was watching Enemy at the Gates, and yeah for the first five minutes all they did was waste ammunition on a couple of poor guys trying to swim through freezing water. It's not like they are traitors or anything.

That movie isn't any where near accurate, source, lived and worked in Russia. They made fun of it as America's vision of Russia. There was no one rifle then ammo for the next, the concept is just ridiculous, how could they have won and pushed Germany all the way back while executing their own soldiers? Enemy At The Gates or War of The Rats (book) was a work of fiction based on a real life character.

 

[spartan231490]

Why though? Does the army or navy or boy scouts have nothing better to do? I was watching Enemy at the Gates, and yeah for the first five minutes all they did was waste ammunition on a couple of poor guys trying to swim through freezing water. It's not like they are traitors or anything.

actually, they kinda are. Desertion has historically been considered a kind of treason. You are abandoning duty to your country. Particularly in active wartime, when deserters often seek sanctuary with the enemy in return for what information they have, desertion is regarded in similar light to treason.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Glad that's a thing of the past but still,

For now... I'm foreseeing a dark future ahead of us.

 

[TotalerKrieger]

Why though? Does the army or navy or boy scouts have nothing better to do? I was watching Enemy at the Gates, and yeah for the first five minutes all they did was waste ammunition on a couple of poor guys trying to swim through freezing water. It's not like they are traitors or anything.

That movie isn't any where near accurate, source, lived and worked in Russia. They made fun of it as America's vision of Russia. There was no one rifle then ammo for the next, the concept is just ridiculous, how could they have won and pushed Germany all the way back while executing their own soldiers? Enemy At The Gates or War of The Rats (book) was a work of fiction based on a real life character.

Hear, hear. Hollywood really needs to stop making historical movies that involve other countries as they seem incapable of being respectful and fair in their depiction of other nations. The vast inaccuracies and extremely biased narratives seem to be devised as a means of influencing how people perceive certain events in history. This happens far too frequently to be dismissed as isolated instances of regrettable artistic choice.

I'm surprised the British do not speak up about how frequently they are misrepresented or slandered outright by Hollywood: Bridge on the River Kwai, U-571, Braveheart, The Patriot, Micheal Collins, Patton, A Bridge Too Far, Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, Monument's Men, Argo , the list goes on and on...

 

[LordLundar]

Why though? Does the army or navy or boy scouts have nothing better to do? I was watching Enemy at the Gates, and yeah for the first five minutes all they did was waste ammunition on a couple of poor guys trying to swim through freezing water. It's not like they are traitors or anything.

That movie isn't any where near accurate, source, lived and worked in Russia. They made fun of it as America's vision of Russia. There was no one rifle then ammo for the next, the concept is just ridiculous, how could they have won and pushed Germany all the way back while executing their own soldiers? Enemy At The Gates or War of The Rats (book) was a work of fiction based on a real life character.

While I agree, there is an accuracy for the 'deserters will be shot' situation, and not just Soviet forces. Several military organizations over history would issue rifles to the soldiers but issue pistols to their commanding officer. The principal for this was that if a soldier would commit a treasonous act (and desertion in a combat zone does qualify) the CO would be able to draw and fire on the soldier faster than the soldier could act with the bulky rifle.

 

[beastro]

You're basically forcing someone who may not have the guts or fortitude to handle being a soldier to BE a soldier.

Tough, it's war and the least of the many evils of it.

There's a reason why NCOs were equipped with a pike in the days of muskets - it was to prod and keep the men pushing forward.

Do you have a source for that? Certainly, that's the sort of thing NCOs would do, but a pike seems to be a very poor choice to do it with.

Look up the spontoon.

It was used less actively as a weapon and more as a arm to keep men corralled and in formation as maintaining formation more than anything kept men from breaking and running, hence why cavalry charges only worked on shaken, disorganized troops - the group kept them together with bayonets pointing at the cav instead of feeling alone and the desire to break and run overtake them.

 

[Armadox]

I'll tell it to you like this..
I took the time to train you the secrets of my warfare..
Those secrets are the property of me, the nation or troop or whatever you belong too.
You are now carrying my property until the war is won..
You walk out with my property, well.. I can't let that get in my enemies' hands can I?
I'd rather burn it to the ground then let it leave my usefulness..
I can always train another in your place..

 

[Thaluikhain]

Look up the spontoon.

It was used less actively as a weapon and more as a arm to keep men corralled and in formation as maintaining formation more than anything kept men from breaking and running, hence why cavalry charges only worked on shaken, disorganized troops - the group kept them together with bayonets pointing at the cav instead of feeling alone and the desire to break and run overtake them.

Ah, a half-pike. That seems fair enough.

 

[FalloutJack]

heh

You can't make something up without inspiration first. We didn't just pull it out of our ass. People were actually shit to other people on purpose to bring it up. But hey, if you have a developed stance on the matter, why not pop into the R&P and discuss it there?

 

[BadNewDingus]

I would only feel bad if they were forced into service. If they volunteered, that's on them.

 

[Vivi22]

That was quite the politically correct ramble there. The problem is that basically of that is far left spoon fed political nonsense. Especially the part of demonizing terrorists. I'm sorry but these people demonize them selves, mutilating women, forcing children to fight, murdering anyone who is disagrees with them in the most brutal inhumane ways. Then you go on and demonize the military branches of the western world, who are the ones who serve willingly to protect the right for you to say what you did.

For the record, no war the US has been involved in in many decades has been fought to protect your freedom. Everyone who told you this is a liar.