Designing MP for the noobs

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Saskwach

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At a GoW 2 LAN a sometimes-gamer friend of mine - the lone survivor of a team - was charging at three unaware enemies, shouting "What do I do?!" A better player - now dead - called out "Just hold B!" Three GRURRRRRRs later he'd won the match. I saw then that the chainsaw has a purpose. Namely, to give easy kills away to new players. Perhaps this wasn't the intention, but if it was it's admirable. I think games emphasise 'skill' too much in MP; if you make the game too 'skillful' and not fun enough during the learning curve, you'll create a small user base of hardcore gamers with no growth potential. Are developers missing this, or am I not seeing their efforts in this are? Do any games you know of do this well?
 

Ridonculous_Ninja

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This happens in Starcraft, every custom map is labeled "No Noobs" so no one can actually learn from anyone but good friends who don't care about losing.

Although that's the player's fault not the developers.

But wouldn't every game be just button mashing if you lowered how much skill you can actually apply to a game? There will always be more skillful people out there who will win, that's just normal.

If you want to learn a game don't do so against competitive people who won't go easy on you or give you tips or tricks.

This appears to be rambling so I'll stop now. I hope my point is comprehensible in there somewhere...
 

MiracleOfSound

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I dunno.. I was awful when I went online a few months ago but I sucked it up, practiced and got better.

I think at 29 though I may not have the reflexes of some of the teenagers who repeatedly annihalate me...
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
there isnt really a way to make a good multiplayer system that the hardcore can be good at but is also noob friendly, anygame anyone can get good at someone else can get much better at
 

Earthbound

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Some games have user-made servers with a "newbs-only" label on them. Sure, players of any skill level can join the game, but better players tend to avoid them, since they know their teammates will be incompetent. Then again, if everyone is incompetent, then there's no balance problem. Of course, not all games have servers like this.
 

Fightgarr

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I completely agree with this sentiment. I'm not good at video games. I really enjoy them, but I'm really nothing special when it comes to skill at them. So when I feel too intimidated to go onto multiplayer, not because of my crippling social ineptness but because I fear the ridicule that would come from this so-called "hardcore" crowd. This has forced me into a situation of only playing multiplayer with friends. Not something I take real issue with, but it certainly says something about the way multiplayer is designed.

I should take a look at those Escapist clans so I can play a few games with some people from here. Unfortunately my online capabilities are limited so I'll have to wait.
 
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Ridonculous_Ninja said:
This happens in Starcraft, every custom map is labeled "No Noobs" so no one can actually learn from anyone but good friends who don't care about losing.

Although that's the player's fault not the developers.

But wouldn't every game be just button mashing if you lowered how much skill you can actually apply to a game? There will always be more skillful people out there who will win, that's just normal.

If you want to learn a game don't do so against competitive people who won't go easy on you or give you tips or tricks.

This appears to be rambling so I'll stop now. I hope my point is comprehensible in there somewhere...
Well, I've only tried 1 online match with starcraft, and of course the only thing I heard was "OMG NOOB".
Excuse me for actually attempting to play online, as if I don't know I'm a noob at it.
 

Saskwach

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OP's note: A vital part of the OP was left undone. I've just now noticed this and corrected it. Feel free to reappraise it at your leisure.
 

Ridonculous_Ninja

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Singularly Datarific said:
Ridonculous_Ninja said:
This happens in Starcraft, every custom map is labeled "No Noobs" so no one can actually learn from anyone but good friends who don't care about losing.

Although that's the player's fault not the developers.

But wouldn't every game be just button mashing if you lowered how much skill you can actually apply to a game? There will always be more skillful people out there who will win, that's just normal.

If you want to learn a game don't do so against competitive people who won't go easy on you or give you tips or tricks.

This appears to be rambling so I'll stop now. I hope my point is comprehensible in there somewhere...
Well, I've only tried 1 online match with starcraft, and of course the only thing I heard was "OMG NOOB".
Excuse me for actually attempting to play online, as if I don't know I'm a noob at it.
I get booted from games all the time because my download was slow or I had a download at all, proclaiming that I had not played that game before.

And of course if you are a noob who gets into a game then nobody really tries to help you. They just get mad at you for not knowing what you're doing.

I've had maybe 3 people give me tips on how to play the custom games. 3. That was it. The other people just yell out objectives and expect the noobs to follow.
 

pompom8volt

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I think the best way for new players to learn is if both teams have roughly the same number of new players. it keeps the game balanced. This wont always happen but in big matches it happens a lot.

In case you noticed i say "new player" because i reserve the phrase "noob" for veteran player who for some other reason suck (like they don't even try or are idiots)
 

Srkkl

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Reuq said:
Having multiple sections like in Haalo 3 helps, some fun where people run and gun, and some competitive where people call out and use more advanced tactics. In my eyes this is a good way to do it.
Hahahahahaha, the only tactics I've seen on that game is "ok guys as soon as we spawn run for the rocket launcher and we'll win" with some grenade throwing in there somewhere.

OT: To get good at a game online I play the single player and learn the tricks then I go online and take the abuse until I become the abuser, really just learn, you start out the noob and then grow.
 

Nutcase

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The only technical solutions I can think of to make a good competetive game accessible to nubs are

- have replay functionality
- have comprehensive in-game tutorials that go deep not just into mechanics but tactics
- have solid skill-based matchmaking
- automatically present useful information in-game that advanced players know or call out to their teammates anyway
- cut down on the difficulty of those inputs which advanced players would always pull off anyway

These things do not fuck it up for advanced players.
 

Flying-Emu

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Ultratwinkie said:
the only way to learn is the hard way.
Congratulations, you just won the thread. There is no way to make multiplayer "for noobs", except by giving them a specific channel that only players under a specific rank can play on. The only game I can think of off the top of my head that was FUN no matter my level was TF2, simply because even if you suck at the game, you can help your team in SOME way.

Provided you're not a spy or sniper.
 

Inco

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Ridonculous_Ninja said:
Singularly Datarific said:
Ridonculous_Ninja said:
This happens in Starcraft, every custom map is labeled "No Noobs" so no one can actually learn from anyone but good friends who don't care about losing.

Although that's the player's fault not the developers.

But wouldn't every game be just button mashing if you lowered how much skill you can actually apply to a game? There will always be more skillful people out there who will win, that's just normal.

If you want to learn a game don't do so against competitive people who won't go easy on you or give you tips or tricks.

This appears to be rambling so I'll stop now. I hope my point is comprehensible in there somewhere...
Well, I've only tried 1 online match with starcraft, and of course the only thing I heard was "OMG NOOB".
Excuse me for actually attempting to play online, as if I don't know I'm a noob at it.
I get booted from games all the time because my download was slow or I had a download at all, proclaiming that I had not played that game before.

And of course if you are a noob who gets into a game then nobody really tries to help you. They just get mad at you for not knowing what you're doing.

I've had maybe 3 people give me tips on how to play the custom games. 3. That was it. The other people just yell out objectives and expect the noobs to follow.
Yea, like with all the new custom games coming out all the time, it is impossible to learn the rules for all of them. Which kinda sucks and is why i play with one friend on anything in starcraft. (though we mostly play 6 vs 2 games against computers. Good times)
If ya want someone to play with on starcraft then just PM me and i'll tell ya my Starcraft B.net account. Though i can't host, my friend does it for me, would be good to play a few custom games with the same people.
 

MetallicaRulez0

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I don't think skill is emphasized enough. Particularly true of FPS games and CoD in particular. Any moron can make an MP40/MP5 class with Juggernaut and hold down the trigger for 15 kills a game.
 

Saskwach

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Ultratwinkie said:
the only way to learn is the hard way. the ONLY way Mp can be designed for noobs is making an incredible AI that fights for you so you don't need skill, but then it would be boring. so you need to do trial and error, and try to get better. you dont need to be the best off the bat, just ease into the mp gradually.
There are two points I feel I should make.

First, GoW 1/2 show many ways in which it's possible to make the early hours enjoyable (not necessarily easy) and to keep a rookie player feeling like they'd achieved something.
There's the chainsaw for one. A cosmetic addition if it were simply thrown into any game, but nonetheless, there's a weapon that isn't actually unbalanced yet still allows noobs to get kills even before they can aim well.
Then there's the cover mechanism. Cover in GoW (in theory) means that skill disparity isn't so pronounced in a dogfight; one-on-one fights are rarely resolved if one player knows he's outmatched and refuses to reveal himself too much. This places the onus of the game on forcing enemies out of cover. Doing this takes a minimum of "skill" in the sense of hand-eye coordination and intimate weapon familiarity (all integral to skill, but daunting to the new player) so it's an area in which rookies can feel they've helped. But how to flush someone out of cover? For starters, there's flanking. So long as a new player understands basic tactics and in-game navigation, flanking is something they can do decently; all it takes is circling the combat to a ninety degree angle. Then there's grenades. Nothin' better to flush 'em out. And what do we see here? GoW has a targeting system for its grenades. Unlike all other games I've seen it blatantly tells you where your grenades will go.* With that one feature grenades went from being a weapon for the good-to-pro (as they usually are, IME) to being a weapon for everyone, with the question being when, how and where to place them, not whether your dexterity and memorisation of the grenade arc can place the grenade where you want it. As you can see, GoW 2 makes concessions to new players while still keeping skill part of the equation. That's in theory: on Live it could very well be terribly balanced - I don't know. Still that would be a problem of execution, not conception.

And the second point, which I've been touching on here, isn't that devs have to take skill out of the equation, just that they can make games in which skillful play doesn't exclude mechanics that even new players can grasp quickly and use effectively. Nine times out of ten I still wiped the floor with my friend. But if he was smart, or he got the drop on me, he could place a grenade, or rev his chainsaw, or flank me, and I'd be fishfood. Most other games I've played, even when this friend of mine gets the jump he goes home packing.

*And I remember one hardcore nutter for whom this was a concession too far: You can't tell people where their grenades will go! That takes all the skill out of it!
 

Saskwach

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stinkychops said:
Saskwach said:
At a GoW 2 LAN a sometimes-gamer friend of mine - the lone survivor of a team - was charging at three unaware enemies, shouting "What do I do?!" A better player - now dead - called out "Just hold B!" Three GRURRRRRRs later he'd won the match. I saw then that the chainsaw has a purpose. Namely, to give easy kills away to new players. Perhaps this wasn't the intention, but if it was it's admirable. I think games emphasise 'skill' too much in MP; if you make the game too 'skillful' and not fun enough during the learning curve, you'll create a small user base of hardcore gamers with no growth potential. Are developers missing this, or am I not seeing their efforts in this are? Do any games you know of do this well?
So you think that the skilless hold B tactics in GOW2 are a good idea? I'm sory I just can't comprehend how you would think that forcing everyone to play the game by waiting in rooms to get chainsaw kills is a good idea.
It's actually fairly simple for a skilled player to keep a chainsawer away, if he sees the guy coming. You either shoot him or hit him continually to unrev him, and you get away from his frontal axis. Skill wins through; it's just that the noob still has a chance to get a kill, if he's smart, if he's sneaky, if he's lucky - one or all of those. However, the dexterity and in-game nous needed to get the occasional kill is lowered for that particular tactic, so it's one that will buffet a rookie's early hours in which he has very few good experiences to look back on.
So yes, I think the "skilless hold B tactics" are good, because they aren't fool-proof, but they're simple and effective. It's a bit like Killing For Dummies. The whole exercise is simplified, but you're still reading a book about the subject in question - and maybe getting a good start to further reading.
I think the chainsaw is a melee version of many game's rocket launchers. At a certain optimal close range a RL in your hands is free kills. Further away it's tougher (dare I say "skilled"?) and even further it's just silly. The chainsaw is the same, with these three ranges reduced, as well as the 'skill' (read: 'dexterity involved in twiddling thumbsticks accurately'). That's all fair, though, since getting that close is no mean feat.
 

Saskwach

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stinkychops said:
A shotgun blast doesn't knock the person back, I live in Australia and so have atleast a 0.5th of a second lag, because of this it makes it incredibly difficult for me to actually do anything against chainsaws. If I chainsaw back the person gets a half second of tapping more than me.
I also live in Australia and understand your pain, but let's try not to confuse the issue. You're speaking of a problem with lag, not with game design.