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Casual Shinji

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Just watched One Battle After Another and it was a mixed bag. It seems to want to go for more comedy than Paul Thomas Anderson typically goes for, but the serious tone of the movie and the comedic timing really doesn't make it land very well. There's some dialoge that very much comes across as Hollywood thinking this is what particular people talk like as opposed to how they actually talk. Some of it does work though, with Sean Penn and Benicio del Toro being the stand-outs. Penn can fly off the handle in a couple of scenes, but all he really needs to do is his little dapper walk and I'm right back in.

There's a very good section with DiCaprio's character fleeing through the city at night during a large scale police raid, while del Toro tries to shepard him to safety, and it's kinda fucking briliant. It really highlights Anderson's knack for bringing a city to life. There's also some very fine vehicle sequences. Anderson must've realized how good they looked, or maybe he was just really into it, because the movie takes almost any oppertunity to have a camera shot following a car speeding along the road.

Magnolia also had some comedy/satire laced in, and maybe if I watched that movie back it'd bother me now too, but One Battle After Another just didn't really work for.
 
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thebobmaster

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I've always found Gremlins a little odd in how it functions as a movie.

Rand Peltzer is the narrator stating 'oh boy, do I have story to tell you folks', but he's really not even in Kingston Falls when shit goes down. Dude leaves for the convention before the mogwai even eat after midnight, and then returns to see Stripe half melted. He literally doesn't even get to see an actual gremlin. Then there's Judge Reinhold's character, which I reckon everyone who rewatches this movie needs to remind themselves he's in this. Because he only shows up at the very start introduced as the antithesis of Billy who vies for Kate's attention, and feels obviously set-up to meet his end at the schemes of the gremlins. But then apart from one scene later on where he just walks by he disappears from the movie.

Also, for as deadly as daylight is to the mogwai/gremlins there's certainly a lot of scenes with daylight streaming into the room mere feet away from them. Even in the scene with the recently cocooned mogwai the morning sun is just right the fuck there.
I did find the narrator choice a bit odd, but I also found out that that was a bit of a last-minute addition due to the intended opening to set things up being cut. As for the sunlight thing...yeah, after The Mummy Returns had a scene with the main characters literally outrunning the sun rising to save a character, I just accept that when they say daylight is deadly, it has to be direct in movies.
 
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Bob_McMillan

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Sadly the only thing Ballerina has going for it is some of the action scenes are pretty good/fun/inventive, the action scenes go on too long and there are too many of them. The movie is overly long and the "tie-in" in the 2nd half of the movie is just stupid as hell. I think one of the main reasons for movies feeling so "sloppy" is it seems like no one knows how to edit anymore. Every movie has to be over 2 hours now, usually like 2 and half hours, John Wick 4 was almost 3 fucking hours whereas the 1st John Wick is a lean and mean 100 minutes. And the 1st John Wick is the only one with a complete story, the sequels feel like they are one 7 hour movie because the sequels just end in a "to be continued" kinda way. Same thing with TV a lot of the time, an 8 episode 8 hour TV season usually feels like it could've been a movie a lot of the time but it has to be stretched out because content.
I finished Ballerina, you're right, the 2nd half was so awful. Lots of good ideas, nice setpieces, but just too much stupid bullshit. Especially with the incredibly forced John Wick cameo, that I am pretty sure does not at all line up with the events of the third movie.

I think it's not so much about not knowing to edit (at least for this franchise). It's more like the directors are so obsessed with doing cool stunts that they build the movies around that rather than telling a coherent story. Editing this movie down could have helped, but its biggest flaws could not be edited out.

OT: I forgot I also watched the new Naked Gun movie with Liam Neeson. It's not NOT funny, but it's not nearly as packed with jokes as the originals. But was still a fun watch, with a few banger jokes that had me laughing out loud. Also blissfully short.
 
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thebobmaster

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thebobmaster

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I finished Ballerina, you're right, the 2nd half was so awful. Lots of good ideas, nice setpieces, but just too much stupid bullshit. Especially with the incredibly forced John Wick cameo, that I am pretty sure does not at all line up with the events of the third movie.

I think it's not so much about not knowing to edit (at least for this franchise). It's more like the directors are so obsessed with doing cool stunts that they build the movies around that rather than telling a coherent story. Editing this movie down could have helped, but its biggest flaws could not be edited out.

OT: I forgot I also watched the new Naked Gun movie with Liam Neeson. It's not NOT funny, but it's not nearly as packed with jokes as the originals. But was still a fun watch, with a few banger jokes that had me laughing out loud. Also blissfully short.
I enjoyed Naked Gun a fair bit. One thing I liked about it, though, is more of a meta thing. I liked how pretty much all the jokes in the trailer were recontexualized from how they played out in the film, so even the "same" jokes felt fresh when I saw the whole thing.
 
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Sinners

What’s amazing is how after all this time I managed to avoid the twist being spoiled, because I didn’t exactly see it going there but am glad it did. This is the best of those flicks since From Dusk Till Dawn Dawn imho. The story does as much as it needs to, and the characters and atmosphere take care of the rest. At first I thought it was going into the crossroads story involving Robert Johnson (also touched upon via the Bluewater Contract which was a highlight in RDO) which in a way I guess it kinda did, but adapting it within a familiar genre worked as well. The epilogue was especially a nice touch.
 

Bartholen

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I just came out of an almost 12-hour marathon of the Avatar movies and I need to vent before they all leave my memory. And believe me, that time is as short as the half-life of helium-2. These movies are glorified, bloated tech demos for morons. James Cameron cannot write for SHIT! I don't know if there's even a point to trying to talk about these movies individually, because they're all just the same bits copypasted and reshuffled each film. Were I forced to give each one a score, the first one is a 5/10, the second one a 4/10, and the newest one is a 6/10.

Notice how, despite calling these movies glorified tech demos, the scores are still firmly around the middle? That's because these movies don't even elicit enough of a reaction to hate. It's like trying to review a tech demo you watch at the store while buying a TV. They're hollow, shallow, empty, vapid, plotless simulacra of films. Populated entirely by stock characters, plots driven by tropes and clichés, with worldbuilding straight out of the brightest and most enthusiastic Disney kid in 4th grade. You shouldn't hate these movies (and I don't think you even can), but you should hate everything they represent: the overlong, bloated megabudget film headed by a once pioneering filmmaker now subsisting solely off the momentum of glory days long past. Hollywood's still somehow persisting obsession with effects and spectacle replacing everything else there is to a film. It's the cinematic equivalent of jingling keys in a baby's face. It's the corporate executive at a conference telling you to get excited about some shit you couldn't possibly care about. It's a screensaver: you go "huh, that looks pretty neat", and then it's instantly out of your head.

Everyone already knows what these movies are about, so there's little point in even trying to talk about them. It's an unrelenting barrage of the exact same slop for 10 fucking hours. You've got the hippy-dippy woo-woo nonsense, the snarling bad guys, and the script having the subtlety of a jackhammer to the sphincter. Every criticism you could level at them is so screamingly obvious that it feels like saying you shouldn't douse yourself in napalm and run into a burning building. I actually feel insulted at being expected to give an inch of a shit about this world or these vapid hollow shells you could in some hell world call characters. It's so unfathomably lazy and unoriginal that it recycles the same villain (whom calling stock would be a staggering overendorsement) three times in a row, and who will no doubt show up again at the next one like Team motherfucking Rocket. If there ever was a film franchise to call slop, boy fucking howdy it's this one.

The only even remotely interesting or engaging things in this entire franchise are in the newest film, and that's for one immediately obvious reason: it's the only one so far not written only by James Cameron. He's so bad that something as basic as "two competing villains making an alliance" or "the hero and the villain have to team up for survival's sake" suddenly seems like the most fathomlessly deep Shakespearean drama you've ever seen. There are actually somewhat interesting character dynamics at play, and not all the film is the same nuanceless, sunday school special garbage the previous two were. Don't get me wrong: it still devolves into that by the end, but for a while I was genuinely engaged. But by God, it's just so fucking corny.

I beg you, I plead you, do not go see Fire and Ash. Do not feel the need to kill your braincells to this degree to feel like you have to be part of a cultural moment. Do not feed the dying beast that is modern Hollywood so it can keep thrashing and shitting in its death throes for a while longer. In a year where we've gotten such incredible works of passion like Sinners, 28 Years Later and One Battle After Another, let Fire and Ash be the knife that causes the whale's carcass to spill its innards at explosive force, so that it may feed the ecosystem and something new can be born in its place. I'm just coping and hoping, this movie will probably do gangbusters, but I just felt like being poetic for a bit.
 
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BrawlMan

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I beg you, I plead you, do not go see Fire and Ash. Do not feel the need to kill your braincells to this degree to feel like you have to be part of a cultural moment. Do not feed the dying beast that is modern Hollywood so it can keep thrashing and shitting in its death throes for a while longer. In a year where we've gotten such incredible works of passion like Sinners, 28 Years Later and One Battle After Another, let Fire and Ash be the knife that causes the whale's carcass to spill its innards at explosive force, so that it may feed the ecosystem and something new can be born in its place. I'm just coping and hoping, this movie will probably do gangbusters, but I just felt like being poetic for a bit.
I still chose not to see the second movie, and could not give an absolute fuck about Fire and Ash. I already saw the best film this year: Sinners. I also saw Predator Badlands, The Running Man (2025), and MEGAN 2.0. I am perfectly fine with all of those. I do wish I saw The Long Walk, but couldn't due to money and time when it released.
 
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Bartholen

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I still chose not to see the second move, and could not give an absolute fuck about Fire and Ash. I already saw the best film this year: Sinners. I also saw, Predator Badlands, The Running Man (2025) and MEGAN 2.0. I am perfectly fine with what. I do wish I saw The Long Walk, but couldn't due to money and time when it released.
The Way of Water is the first movie to exist in a quantum state: you will have seen it whether or not you've actually seen it, and you will not remember seeing it whether you've seen it or not. It's a film that somehow manages to blur into itself, such is the caliber of its overindulgent, but nonetheless mind-numbing pointlessness and mediocrity.
 
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BrawlMan

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The Way of Water is the first movie to exist in a quantum state: you will have seen it whether or not you've actually seen it, and you will not remember seeing it whether you've seen it or not. It's a film that somehow manages to blur into itself, such is the caliber of its overindulgent, but nonetheless mind-numbing pointlessness and mediocrity.
Funny thing, my parents want to see Fire and Ash, but still have not seen Way of Water. They never knew the second film came out years ago. I told them, you're either going to have to buy copy of WoW, or rent it on one of the streaming services.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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The Way of Water is the first movie to exist in a quantum state: you will have seen it whether or not you've actually seen it, and you will not remember seeing it whether you've seen it or not. It's a film that somehow manages to blur into itself, such is the caliber of its overindulgent, but nonetheless numbing pointlessness and mediocrity.
I thought the main problem with Fire and Ash (other than the Spider character) was that it was simultaneously a remake of Way of Water but also clearly the second half of Way of Water. It's the same movie but also the missing half of the previous movie. The overall plot barely budges forward.

I did an AMA (not here) after watching an early screening and people called bullshit because I was "just" parroting the same plot points of the earlier sequel and giving non-committal answers to questions about worldbuilding and character development. But hey, that's Avatar 3 for you.

They're oksh, corny sci-fi adventure movies whose magic primarily relies on how self-absorbed and divorced they are from modern-day trends, but as of the last one it's clear Cameron is either incapable or uninterested in going anywhere but in circles.
 
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BrawlMan

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They're oksh, corny sci-fi adventure movies whose magic primarily relies on how self-absorbed and divorced they are from modern-day trends, but as of the last one it's clear Cameron is either incapable or uninterested in going anywhere but in circles.
James Cameron is pretty much a sell out. He can't do anything right, but shallow spectacles and pretending it's nuance. He let Avatar get to his fucking head since the start of production with the first movie.

This is why Princess Mononoke will always be superior and never needed a sequel.
 

Bartholen

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James Cameron is pretty much a sell out. He can't do anything right, but shallow spectacles and pretending it's nuance. He let Avatar get to his fucking head since the start of production with the first movie.
I was about to say that Cameron almost always working with other writers has managed to hide his abject inadequacy as a writer, but glancing through his catalogue I can't really say that: he's the sole writer on both Titanic and The Abyss. Now, Titanic is not a well written film, but it is a memorable film, and however hokey the script, the actors manage to work with all the overwrought melodrama. Plus you actually kind of buy all that corny shit coming out of the mouths of innocent teenagers. So clearly there is something there. The Abyss I would actually call a very well written film, even going as far as having an unironic "NOOOOOO" moment, and making it feel actually dramatically earned instead of corny. It probably helps that Cameron was writing about subject matter where he is genuinely a top leading expert, so the authenticity bleeds through.

But man, whatever happened to his limited writing abilities just plummeted like the fucking Hindenburg with the Avatar franchise. Was he actually making the blockbuster equivalent of Megalopolis this whole time, and we just didn't notice because the story was so vapid?
 
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BrawlMan

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I was about to say that Cameron almost always working with other writers has managed to hide his abject inadequacy as a writer, but glancing through his catalogue I can't really say that: he's the sole writer on both Titanic and The Abyss. Now, Titanic is not a well written film, but it is a memorable film, and however hokey the script, the actors manage to work with all the overwrought melodrama. Plus you actually kind of buy all that corny shit coming out of the mouths of innocent teenagers. So clearly there is something there. The Abyss I would actually call a very well written film, even going as far as having an unironic "NOOOOOO" moment, and making it feel actually dramatically earned instead of corny. It probably helps that Cameron was writing about subject matter where he is genuinely a top leading expert, so the authenticity bleeds through.
The Abyss I have no problem defending. Titanic I never liked, outside of the ship sinking scenes, and was the biggest waste of 3 hours of my life.

Was he actually making the blockbuster equivalent of Megalopolis this whole time, and we just didn't notice because the story was so vapid?
I personally wouldn't know, but it does not matter to me either way. I have seen so much better written and entertaining movies than the Avatar Trilogy. Both Deadpool Trilogy and Venom Trilogy films have more meaningful and real moments of humanity, than whatever Cameron has been trying over a decade now.
 

Casual Shinji

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The only even remotely interesting or engaging things in this entire franchise are in the newest film, and that's for one immediately obvious reason: it's the only one so far not written only by James Cameron.
Amanda Silver and Rick Jaffe also wrote for The Way of Water along with Cameron.

I saw Fire and Ash just last night and it's really just a weaker version of the second movie, which itself wasn't very good but atleast that had some very decent scenes (the underwater stuff, the sinking freighter). Quaritch has some fun deliveries and I kinda liked evil hot volcano lady, but apart from that this movie fell pretty flat. More so than the previous two. The final battle is virtually the same as the second one, but with no actual conclusion. Seriously, fire lady just walked away and we never see her again. Not even a final look to mark her exit from the film, or final shot of her dressing her wounds or whatever before the credits rolled to show 'look, she is still out there'. Same with Jermaine Clement who just runs out of frame never to return. Bye, I guess.

Honestly for as bad as these movies kinda are at least they took the time to attempt to make you revel in the beauty of this world (whether that worked or not). But it took the time at least. The third movie kinda does away with that, and what little engagement these movies manage to convey goes along with it.
 
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bluegate

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I just came out of an almost 12-hour marathon of the Avatar movies and I need to vent before they all leave my memory. And believe me, that time is as short as the half-life of helium-2. These movies are glorified, bloated tech demos for morons. James Cameron cannot write for SHIT! I don't know if there's even a point to trying to talk about these movies individually, because they're all just the same bits copypasted and reshuffled each film. Were I forced to give each one a score, the first one is a 5/10, the second one a 4/10, and the newest one is a 6/10.

Notice how, despite calling these movies glorified tech demos, the scores are still firmly around the middle? That's because these movies don't even elicit enough of a reaction to hate. It's like trying to review a tech demo you watch at the store while buying a TV. They're hollow, shallow, empty, vapid, plotless simulacra of films. Populated entirely by stock characters, plots driven by tropes and clichés, with worldbuilding straight out of the brightest and most enthusiastic Disney kid in 4th grade. You shouldn't hate these movies (and I don't think you even can), but you should hate everything they represent: the overlong, bloated megabudget film headed by a once pioneering filmmaker now subsisting solely off the momentum of glory days long past. Hollywood's still somehow persisting obsession with effects and spectacle replacing everything else there is to a film. It's the cinematic equivalent of jingling keys in a baby's face. It's the corporate executive at a conference telling you to get excited about some shit you couldn't possibly care about. It's a screensaver: you go "huh, that looks pretty neat", and then it's instantly out of your head.

Everyone already knows what these movies are about, so there's little point in even trying to talk about them. It's an unrelenting barrage of the exact same slop for 10 fucking hours. You've got the hippy-dippy woo-woo nonsense, the snarling bad guys, and the script having the subtlety of a jackhammer to the sphincter. Every criticism you could level at them is so screamingly obvious that it feels like saying you shouldn't douse yourself in napalm and run into a burning building. I actually feel insulted at being expected to give an inch of a shit about this world or these vapid hollow shells you could in some hell world call characters. It's so unfathomably lazy and unoriginal that it recycles the same villain (whom calling stock would be a staggering overendorsement) three times in a row, and who will no doubt show up again at the next one like Team motherfucking Rocket. If there ever was a film franchise to call slop, boy fucking howdy it's this one.

The only even remotely interesting or engaging things in this entire franchise are in the newest film, and that's for one immediately obvious reason: it's the only one so far not written only by James Cameron. He's so bad that something as basic as "two competing villains making an alliance" or "the hero and the villain have to team up for survival's sake" suddenly seems like the most fathomlessly deep Shakespearean drama you've ever seen. There are actually somewhat interesting character dynamics at play, and not all the film is the same nuanceless, sunday school special garbage the previous two were. Don't get me wrong: it still devolves into that by the end, but for a while I was genuinely engaged. But by God, it's just so fucking corny.

I beg you, I plead you, do not go see Fire and Ash. Do not feel the need to kill your braincells to this degree to feel like you have to be part of a cultural moment. Do not feed the dying beast that is modern Hollywood so it can keep thrashing and shitting in its death throes for a while longer. In a year where we've gotten such incredible works of passion like Sinners, 28 Years Later and One Battle After Another, let Fire and Ash be the knife that causes the whale's carcass to spill its innards at explosive force, so that it may feed the ecosystem and something new can be born in its place. I'm just coping and hoping, this movie will probably do gangbusters, but I just felt like being poetic for a bit.
You couldn't pay me enough to sit through an Avatar marathon screening like that, I applaud your endurance.

I saw the original two times back in 2009-2010 and I'm happy to never step inside that universe ever again, the second or third movie have zero pull for me.
 
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Gordon_4

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You couldn't pay me enough to sit through an Avatar marathon screening like that, I applaud your endurance.

I saw the original two times back in 2009-2010 and I'm happy to never step inside that universe ever again, the second or third movie have zero pull for me.
I did a marathon that long at the cinema this year, but it was for the extended Lord of the Rings films which I'd obviously never seen on a cinema screen. By the end of it I was a little....off kilter.
 

Bartholen

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You couldn't pay me enough to sit through an Avatar marathon screening like that, I applaud your endurance.
We only went to see the newest one in theaters, the other two we watched at a friend on his giant TV screen. And riffing on the movies definitely made it more bearable: how the "horse" heads look like giant penises, like how if you think about it, there's tons of straight up sexual assault and zoophilia in that movie, that sort of stupid shit. Then being able to nod off during the second one gave me enough energy to stay somewhat focused during the third.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Pan's Labyrinth (2006)

Dark Fantasy movie by the patron saint of dark fantasy, Guillermo del Toro. Somehow I always tend to think of this as his first well known movie but it isn't, he had already done Blade II and the first Hellboy by that point, so there's goes my opening.

Anyway, Pan's Labyrinth follows half orphan girl Ophelia in post civil war Spain. Ophelia and her mother are called to the outpost of her stepfather Capitan Vidal, a military officer ordered to crack down on a resistance cell. Surrounded by the violence of war and her stepfathers ill temperament, she stumbles upon a portal to a mythical underworld, an envoy of which, the more or less titular Faun, gives her three tasks to do to claim her position as princess of the underworld.

With the benefit of hindsight, I couldn't help but compare this to a later movie of del Toro's, namely his adaptation of Pinocchio. A story he chose to push forward in time to World War 2 Italy under Benito Mussolini. Both being stories about the way growing up under dictatorship or, to some extent, just growing up in a authoritarian household in general, robs children of their childhood. Which, don't get me wrong, is a valid point to make. However, I will say Pinocchio, overall, worked for me, where Pan's Labyrinth didn't.

See, del Toro's Pinocchio feels very much in conversation with its source material. The original childrens book itself promoted a very authoritarian view on childhood. A child ought to heed their parents and teachers, learn discipline and obedience and be not corrupted by promises of easy wealth, pleasure or leasure, lest only misfortune awaits them. Del Toro's adaptation opted to challenge this moral, sending Pinocchio not to an island of pleasure where sinister figures corrupt children with fun and games to turn them into donkeys but instead to a military bootcamp to turn him into a soldier. The argument the director was making with his interpretation of the story was that violently forcing discipline and obedience onto children was, itself, a form of corruption. It doesn't make happy people or wise people or even productive people, unless all you're producing is violence, it makes people who die young for purposes they never learn to question.

Pan"s Labyrinth, to me, just never arrives at any kind of poignant point that would satisfyingly tie it together like that. It never moves much beyond "It sure is bleak for children to grow up like that" which, certainly, it is, I don't take issue with that. If I had to offer up my reading, I'd say that PL's core theme is that of defying authority, what ever victory Ophelia does manage to eke out, she does by contradicting the orders of the two authority figures left in her life (although there is another sequence earlier on where I'm hard pressed to see any way her disregarding the instructions she was given was justified or even, really, understandable) and it is implied that following her personal moral judgement rather than doing what she's told is the only reason she found salvation after sacrificing herself. That said though, let me be straight here, no matter how edgy and dark and goth you are, that kind of moral, "sacrifice yourself for the greater good" is just not one you should make when your protagonist is a child. Not to sound like I'm clutching my pearls here, but there's hardly a cause in the world great enough for a child to be asked to sacrifice their future over it, come on Guillermo.

All things considered, I had to think about Mirror Mask a couple of times, which might be a bad comparison because despite both of them being heavily stylized, vaguely goth fantasy movies about a young girl being taught harsh life lessons by fantastical creatures from another world reflecting her childlike imagination, Mirror Mask wasn't trying to go for outright tragedy the way this did. But also, that's kinda my point y'know. There's still too much whimsy, albeit dark whimsy, in PL's presentation to end on quite this fatalistic a note, there's a reason practically all other movies with this kind of premise at least end with the possibility that the children they follow have a future on this world to look forward to. It's funny because Mirror Mask's author, Neil Gaiman, turned out to be quite a vile customer while I have no reason to assume Guillermo del Toro is anything other than a perfectly decent fellow but if I was asked which of the two movies was written by a cynical, manipulative bastard I'd have guessed wrong.

But bear with me here, I'm not trying to drag Guillermo del Toro, I don't think that the problems I have with Pan's Labyrinth as a story have anything to do with any personal failings on his part, I just think it's a script that doesn't really come together, at least not for me. It feels like it could have used another draft or two for it to really click. To actually tie its themes and ideas together into something that feels less awkward. Like most people, I do appreciate most of del Toro's visual style, some rather obnoxious colour filter nonwithstanding and I do think his interest in the unwarranted suffering of children comes from a place of genuine compassion, I just didn't really feel this compassion came through properly in Pan's Labyrinth.
 
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