Discussion about Self-Insert Characters in Fiction (Mary Sue/Gary Stu)

[Trunkage]

So, to me, Rey from the new Star Wars isnt a great character. Even if you like her, you'd probably recognize that she gets called a Mary-Sue. Usually what follows is a list of great female characters to prove this point.

So my question is... why is it not okay for female characters to not work? For many, Rey doesn't work and then she's seen as some affront to culture. While bad male characters aren't given that scrutiny. Just as a reference, the last two The Rock moviea, Skyscraper and Rampage.

I've already plenty of people being against Ms Marvel movie next year and how she's be ruining comics for a while. Why is it not okay for her to 'ruin comics' just like plenty of male characters 'ruined comics'

(As an aside, I dont think Luke as much of a character. He's had little training and little personality. He's a cardboard cutout running around on adventures. He's ruined Star Wars before Daisy Ridley was even born.)

 

[Saelune]

Cause there are a million male protagonists, not a million female ones. Plus this is Star Wars. Skyscraper is a shit movie, who cares about the protagonist? Rampage was a shit movie, and my criticisms focus on the twisting from the game to the film.

I am unaware of how Ms. Marvel is ruining comics, unless it is referring to the Muslim Ms Marvel that replaced Carol Danvers. The movie will be about Carol though.

That said, Luke didn't have little training! He spends the entire trilogy training! Rey actually made me appreciate how much effort Lucas put into justifying Luke. In the beginning he constantly drops seemingly throw-away lines explaining he has experience flying and shooting, that he has been training and hoping to join the military. Then he bumbles through the Death Star, doing little actual fighting, then leaves. During the debriefing he mentions that shooting the Death Star port is not as crazy as it sounds, and even then has the Force helping him hit it.

The second movie is 90% Luke training with Yoda, all to end in a fight with Darth Vader where he gets his ass kicked! Then he goes back for more training, and overall lacks his youthful ignorance.


Really they could have atleast have a scene where that guy who was caring for Rey said something like 'You need to stop stealing my vehicles and doing all those crazy tricks, you're gonna get yourself killed!' It would atleast have been something. As dumb as a lot of what Anakin did in Episode 1 was, they do start him off already a capable pod racer to justify his abilities to some degree. (Though it also had Jar Jar win a massive battle out of sheer stupidity... bleh)

 

[twistedmic]

Really they could have atleast have a scene where that guy who was caring for Rey said something like 'You need to stop stealing my vehicles and doing all those crazy tricks, you're gonna get yourself killed!' It would atleast have been something. As dumb as a lot of what Anakin did in Episode 1 was, they do start him off already a capable pod racer to justify his abilities to some degree. (Though it also had Jar Jar win a massive battle out of sheer stupidity... bleh)

Rey did at least mention that she was a pilot/knew how to fly before she got into the Falcon's cockpit. She specifically tells Finn that she's a pilot. Granted, she never left the planet and (probably) hadn't flown the Falcon ("That ship hasn't flown in years." to quote Rey). And Luke revealed that he was a pilot himself in a similar fashion, quoting him from memory-"I'm not such a bad pilot myself."

 

[Trunkage]

Really they could have atleast have a scene where that guy who was caring for Rey said something like 'You need to stop stealing my vehicles and doing all those crazy tricks, you're gonna get yourself killed!' It would atleast have been something. As dumb as a lot of what Anakin did in Episode 1 was, they do start him off already a capable pod racer to justify his abilities to some degree. (Though it also had Jar Jar win a massive battle out of sheer stupidity... bleh)

Rey did at least mention that she was a pilot/knew how to fly before she got into the Falcon's cockpit. She specifically tells Finn that she's a pilot. Granted, she never left the planet and (probably) hadn't flown the Falcon ("That ship hasn't flown in years." to quote Rey). And Luke revealed that he was a pilot himself in a similar fashion, quoting him from memory-"I'm not such a bad pilot myself."

He also claimed he was a good shot. It set up that he could make that Death Star shot, even without the Force.

But then Rey was actually independent, had to fight people off all the time, was worldly and not the bright eyed optimist Luke. She began far more competent. But she did receive less training in the first movie. Id say the same level for the second, because Luke didnt get much training.

Anyway, I was specifically asking about the way high expectations on female characters and how we arent really comfortable with them sucking. Picking such a... polarising character might a bad example that distracts from my question

 

[bluegate]

(Though it also had Jar Jar win a massive battle out of sheer stupidity... bleh)

Care to refresh my memory?

Jar Jar only stumbled through the battle, releasing a few energy orbs that mildly inconvenienced the droids, he was subsequently captured and held at gun point until the droids shut down due to Anakin blowing up the control ship.

Jar Jar didn't win anything, he merely survived through stupidity.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Meh, I had far more pressing problems with those movies than Rey, so she sort of went under the radar for me. I didn't mind her so much.

 

[Saelune]

Anyway, I was specifically asking about the way high expectations on female characters and how we arent really comfortable with them sucking. Picking such a... polarising character might a bad example that distracts from my question

This topic is very clearly written to be about Star Wars, not about women in media overall. The topic and your OP are all Star Wars centric.

 

[Saelune]

Really they could have atleast have a scene where that guy who was caring for Rey said something like 'You need to stop stealing my vehicles and doing all those crazy tricks, you're gonna get yourself killed!' It would atleast have been something. As dumb as a lot of what Anakin did in Episode 1 was, they do start him off already a capable pod racer to justify his abilities to some degree. (Though it also had Jar Jar win a massive battle out of sheer stupidity... bleh)

Rey did at least mention that she was a pilot/knew how to fly before she got into the Falcon's cockpit. She specifically tells Finn that she's a pilot. Granted, she never left the planet and (probably) hadn't flown the Falcon ("That ship hasn't flown in years." to quote Rey). And Luke revealed that he was a pilot himself in a similar fashion, quoting him from memory-"I'm not such a bad pilot myself."

They really just should not have made her do a freaking backflip in the Millenium Falcon. Admittedly that is more a flaw of modern action movies in general, but still, Star Wars shouldn't be like other mainstream action films.

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

Rey gets called a Mary Sue because she is a female character who has a pre-existing skill-set, and as such is held to standards neither Luke nor Anakin ever were even though their feats are far more ridiculous with far less training. Anakin Skywalker was so amazingly gifted at age 10 that he could WIN a race in a sport most humanoids aren't actually capable of participating in just because he is so naturally gifted with the force. Luke flew the equivalent of a crop duster a few times and that was enough to let him blow up the death star.

However none of these characters are actually Mary Sues because that's not about power. A Mary Sue character is always right, never makes personal mistakes and only ever fails because other people are evil rather than because they made mistakes, and this is not true for any of the three. Rey choses to delude herself into thinking her parents were Jedi and lives as a scavenger hermit for years rather than getting on with her life, and is so convinced she is the next Luke Skywalker and that Kylo is the next Darth Vader that she allows herself to be captured by the first order. Truth is, most forums on the internet are mainly populated by young men who will gladly accept male characters who are instant badasses with a pre-existing reportoar of outlandish skills, yet will demand a three hour training arc from a female character introduced with a fraction of the same skills and still complain even if they get one

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

If it takes you seven movies to realize that most of the characters in Star Wars are broadly drawn archetypes who only work in the context of a story that's more about equally broad themes than realistic character developments then you're either a child or simply not very smart.

Make no mistake, in a story like Song of Ice and Fire or most iterations of Star Trek a character like Rey would stick out like a sore thumb as a Mary Sue. Because these properties attempt to have believable characters that have believable relationships and develop believably. Star Wars doesn't. Hell, half the reason people liked to complain that the characters in the prequels have "no personality" is that they aren't immediately recognizable archetypes the way the ones from the Original Trilogy were.

Sure, a lot about Rey is awfully convenient in the sense that a lot of what, in a better paced series, she'd have to learn are things she already know before the movie even starts but part of me thinks that modern audiences just wouldn't appreciate something that starts as slow as Episode 4. Which is a shame, really, I strongly think that the single most important sequence to Star Wars as a franchise is that of Luke simply living his life with his uncle and aunt on Tatooine. Because that's where the movie really reels you in. Pulls you into the world it created. Just following some of the people living their normal life there. Farming moisture, drinking blue milk, buying robots from a tribe of nomadic aliens to help them with their work... it's where the universe of Star Wars becomes more than just a backdrop.

 

[Agema]

So, to me, Rey from the new Star Wars isnt a great character. Even if you like her, you'd probably recognize that she gets called a Mary-Sue.

This is probably little more than when a term exists, someone will use it.

Rey is in essence no different from a million heroes and heroines in SF&F literature, from Luke Skywalker in earlier films to the typical peasant who turns out to be the long-lost king, greatest warrior / wizard of the generation in a fantasy novel. If she's a Mary Sue, so are all of them, too.

It is probably less well handled, though. The previous trilogies imply lots of training goes on in intervening time frames - such as Luke on Degobah, or Anakin trained as a child. The new one can't be arsed and just cuts to the chase with force powers just appearing. But I guess that's potentially what happens when you move from a creator who has a unified vision of their universe to a locust like JJ Abrams who just grabs existing IP to make superficial, flashy adaptations before moving on.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Because women are put under higher scrutiny than men in movies (or other entertaiment media). Whereas a man can just walk past the bouncher and into the club no problem, women need to first show their ID and answer some questions to prove they have a legitimate reason to be there. Hence the usual excuse 'I'm okay with female characters, but there needs to be a reason she's a woman'. This also ofcourse applies to gay characters.

Also, Rey isn't a Mary Sue, since that would imply she's idealized and flawless, which she clearly isn't. Just because she can competently fly a spaceship, is a mechanic, and can handle herself in a fight, doesn't stop her from at first not wanting to help BB-8, being initially tempted to sell him off, lying to herself about her parents, and running away when confronted with her "destiny". Point being, she has fears and weaknesses. That doesn't mean she's a great character, or that Daisy Ridley doesn't play her a tad obnoxiously, but that doesn't translate into her being a Mary Sue.

 

[Catnip1024]

While bad male characters aren't given that scrutiny.

Serious? I found Finn the most poorly written and unrelatable character in the movie. Rey wasn't the highest quality of writing, but didn't have any of the jarring "why the fuck would they do that?" moments. Likewise, I was kind of appreciating the engineer character from the latest one until she pulled that batshit crazy stunt at the end...

The difference between Rey and Luke is generational - 70s movies tended not to have the same expectations on character development. He was a 2D stereotype character, but that was fine because the film was about the story not the people.

Anakin, for all the issues with the prequels and how they were written, was a deeply flawed individual. That's essentially the point of the prequel trilogy, him giving in to his base instincts. His flying skills were largely absurd, but so was a large number of things in the Phantom Menace.

And in a wider sense, I think we come back to the difference between movies about storylines and movies about people. James Bond is a walking stereotype, but that works because Bond films are about the story and not him as a person. There is (or should be) no attempt to explain him or develop him, because that's not the point. I think the more modern Star Wars films attempt to make people care more about the characters, and as a result open themselves to more scrutiny when said characters are poor.

 

[twistedmic]

Anakin, for all the issues with the prequels and how they were written, was a deeply flawed individual. That's essentially the point of the prequel trilogy, him giving in to his base instincts. His flying skills were largely absurd, but so was a large number of things in the Phantom Menace.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a bit here (if that's the correct term), even though I dislike the prequel trilogy I will say that a lot of the issues with Anakin, his piloting and mechanical skills mostly, would have been less absurd had he been older. If the movies had started with Anakin already a teen (somewhere between 14-17, I'd say) it would have made a bit more sense for him to be a skilled pilot and mechanic (as long as they didn't have him build a protocol droid with limited fine-motor control and immobile fingers to help his mother on the slave-farm).

 

[EvilRoy]

Anakin, for all the issues with the prequels and how they were written, was a deeply flawed individual. That's essentially the point of the prequel trilogy, him giving in to his base instincts. His flying skills were largely absurd, but so was a large number of things in the Phantom Menace.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a bit here (if that's the correct term), even though I dislike the prequel trilogy I will say that a lot of the issues with Anakin, his piloting and mechanical skills mostly, would have been less absurd had he been older. If the movies had started with Anakin already a teen (somewhere between 14-17, I'd say) it would have made a bit more sense for him to be a skilled pilot and mechanic (as long as they didn't have him build a protocol droid with limited fine-motor control and immobile fingers to help his mother on the slave-farm).

In fairness to C3PO, the original actor could barely move his fingers in that hellish suit, so for continuity sake they were a little stuck there.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

It's misogyny

Nailed it. Really, I don't think much more explanation beyond that we put much higher expectation on female characters for some reason. The old adage of "When a man does something he represents only himself, when a woman does something she represents all women everywhere" is sadly very true for media in general.

 

[Saelune]

It's misogyny

Nailed it. Really, I don't think much more explanation beyond that we put much higher expectation on female characters for some reason. The old adage of "When a man does something he represents only himself, when a woman does something she represents all women everywhere" is sadly very true for media in general.

Well, I think there is a bit more context here. Yes, there are too many who just want to point at every woman character's flaws as proof that female characters are bad, but and again, this does link to misogyny, but male characters are just way more abundant that, well, who cares? Ofcourse there are bad male characters, but there are also a ton of good male characters. Far fewer female though.


Though the solution is to increase the number of important female characters so eventually we have a ton of good and bad female characters as examples.


I hate the new Star Wars movies, I think Rey is poorly written, but the diversity (atleast in humans) is the one good part of these new films. I think Anakin in the prequels suffers similar issues to Rey now.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I hate the new Star Wars movies, I think Rey is poorly written, but the diversity (atleast in humans) is the one good part of these new films. I think Anakin in the prequels suffers similar issues to Rey now.

Don't get me wrong, one can absolutely dislike Rey as a character without being a misogynist. The virulent hate against her in some quarters though? The same quarters that also tend to rage against Finn's skin color, Rose's perceived lack of beauty and the "cucking" of Poe. The same quarters that made a The Last Jedi "re-cut" that cut out all the women and turned Poe's arc into a standard hero story. Yeah, there's no coincidence there.

 

[Asita]

Rey is in essence no different from a million heroes and heroines in SF&F literature, from Luke Skywalker in earlier films to the typical peasant who turns out to be the long-lost king, greatest warrior / wizard of the generation in a fantasy novel. If she's a Mary Sue, so are all of them, too.

Mmm...yes and no. Yes if you're considering it in terms of eventual accomplishments, no if you're considering it in terms of execution. As Saelune noted earlier, the original trilogy actually spent a lot of time building up Luke, ranging from repeated references to his piloting skills, to spending most of the Empire Strikes Back training only to find that his skills still pale in comparison to Vader.

Before the Force Awakens, the poster child for Mary Sues in Star Wars was Revan, a charismatic Jedi and a veritable genius in warfare, whose talent in the Force was only matched by his raw power. When he had to relearn how to use the Force after his mind was shattered, we famously got the comment that the speed at which he picked it up was unprecedented and that he had "done in weeks what many cannot do in years" under constant tutelage. Rey manages to go from unaware of her abilities to upwards of competent with them in a matter of minutes on her own. Similarly, she manages an Aerial Canyon Chase, which the script then explicitly acknowledges as being outside her known skill set ("How did you do that?" "I don't know!").

Put a different way, her overall ability is such that fan speculation includes the idea that she's in fact the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker and is so quick on instinctive uptake because she's tapping into memories from her past life (Similar to the justification used to explain how Aang was such a quick bending study in Avatar: the Last Airbender). When ideas like that start picking up steam, it's probably a good indication that you goofed in your execution.