We seem to be discussing different kinds of DLC at this point, because an eraser is something that is useful to a pencil. Demanding a different costume for free is like demanding that the pencil can change its color at any time.Therumancer said:I see it as less a sense of entitlement as much as being upset over being gouged. While the bathroom example someone using is rather extreme, it's sort of like how if someone was to stop putting erasers on #2 pencils so you had to buy erasers seperatly. The eraser has always been there, but they decided to seperate the two permanantly specifically because they realized they could make more money by doing so.
It might not be a god given entitlement where I believe it was declared from on high that all pencils have erasers on them, but I'm still going to be pissed that someone is trying to gouge money out of me.
But you aren't losing anything in the product that is important to the game, you are just losing the ability to make your avatar look different, which has no actual effect on the gameplay.Therumancer said:See, if it was a sense of entitlement you'd be seeing more insanity in people claiming that the goverment should get involved because alternative outfits in video games are a fundemental human right or something ridiculous. Right now it's mostly just people being POed because they are breaking things off of the products in order to make more money.
What's wrong with a company giving players the option to buy extra things for their game? As stated before, the things being offered add nothing of value to the game beyond a paint job, so you really aren't missing out on any content if you choose not to buy it.Therumancer said:Honestly, I don't think gamers would really care that much if the gaming industry wasn't a multi-billion dollar industry at the moment. These guys are making huge profits, and yet they aren't content with them, and want to nickel and dime people for even more money.
The entire goal of a company is to make money, so I don't see why they need to be in dire straits before they're allowed to pursue that goal.Therumancer said:If the gaming industry was actually in trouble as a whole, and we were on the verge of seeing a situation where there were going to be no games at all if they didn't find some way of making more money to literally keep their heads above water. A situation where instead of the occasional company going under (like in any business) and a lot of big boys looking down from giant castles made out of money, we had guys like Bobby Kotick living out of the back of their cars instead of flying private jets, and similar things, then if they were to start charging for these extra skins and such I think you'd see a differant attitude.
Again, a company's goal is to make money and if they're doing it in a totally nonintrusive way (which they are, in my opinion) then they shouldn't be criticized based on that fact alone.Therumancer said:I look towards some of the crazy things people have done to support small press PnP RPG companies occasionally as an example. Or in the arena of video games, how there are people who will buy the absolute dumbest DLC for JRPGs put out by companies like NISA because they operate on such a small scale at least within the US.
The thing is that even with the DLC there is a matter of context. I mean if NISA wants to support "Hyperdimension Neptunia" with $100 of potential DLC, people care less about that due to the nature of the company and it's releases (as they understand it) than say Valve which is making masssive swag off of things like STEAM. I mean does Valve really need to charge you for a couple of extra outfits? That's greed at it's most base. The same thing can be said about companies like EA, or Activision/Blizzard...
I just want to respond to a section of this, I agree that it is our duty as consumers to judge before we buy, but DO NOT WRITE A REVIEW about a game that you have not played. People read those to get a better idea about what they're buying. You are not credible to comment on the quality of a product that you not try. It's well within your right to not buy a game that you think you won't like. But again people read reviews because they're expecting informed opinions. If you give them speculation or distorted claims then you are doing them a disservice. You have no right to rate the quality of a product as a whole based on a single feature. I never bought Assassin's Creed 2 because of what i heard about the DRM, but i would never consider trying to give it a rating based on that (but i would not recommended it to my friends whom i could explain to exactly why i wouldn't get it).Therumancer said:Two things:warfjm said:This sentence takes away any credit away from the previous wall of text paragraph. If you haven't played it, then why bother writing an essay on the subject? Stick to the DLC argument not the game itself.Therumancer said:Now to be fair, I have not played "Portal 2".
For starters your wrong, since we're talking about how the game is received overall, and metacritic ratings and such at this point. What any one person thinks is more or less irrelevent in the scope of that point. I was pointing out that even if it's a wonderful game, it's getting bombed, and that takes a LOT of people, far more than can be mustered by trolls who go after just about any game out there.
Secondly, the attitude of "if you haven't played it, you can't have an opinion" is one of the most dangerous ones out there right now, and at the root of a lot of problems. Even if I was talking about the game content, as opposed to reception, the opinion of someone who didn't buy the game should be pretty well valued for the reasons on why they didn't buy it, as opposed to attacked.
Right now a big problem with the gaming industry is that when someone buys a game, and doesn't like it, the industry already has their money. With digital downloads, or purchused PC software, you can't decide "gee, this sucks" and bring it back, your stuck with it. It's quite a racket when you get down to it, and probably screws dissatistifed, legitimate purchusers worse than the pirates they are trying to crack down on screw the companies. Even with console games, they can be tricky to return. While Gamestop tends to be decent with people returning new games for full value within a couple of days, there are retail places that will give people major issues with returning any kind of opened software, including console games. Some game shops also force you to return any opened product as a "trade in" meaning you lose half or more of the value of the game just to try it and see if you like it.
Like it or not, with the price of games, the economy, and the leap of faith required, playing a game should hardly be a requirement to have an opinion. Especially seeing as by buying a game, even if you hate it, the industry gets to consider you a satisfied customer and you get put into that entire "we've sold X number of copies" speil.
To be honest even with the pre-order incentives, I'm rapidly becoming far less willing to go right out and buy games on release, since it's becoming a bigger and bigger racket.
In the case of this discussion though, understand that I have said nothing bad about Portal 2 itself, other than it's not being well received. The user ratings speak for themselves. The point is that all this talk about "metabombing" and how it's all over "trolls upset about day #1 DLC" are just excuses from those not wanting to face reality. Deserved or not, and loved by some or not, "Portal 2" is not being received as well as it has sold.
I think the refusal to face reality is largely because by acknowleging that what happened here and with "Dragon Age 2", it means the industry is going to have to change some things it really doesn't want to, since it will mean cutting down on their profit margins in one way or another. It's better for a lot of bean counters to try and deny reality and say "it's those blasted trolls" rather than accept that "damn, I guess our audience is smarter and has better standards than we assumed". Give it time though, I suspect this is a trend and it will get hammered into skulls eventually.... or it will contribute to an industry collapse.
I think it should be taken as a warning sign when two beloved companies like this get hammered the same way, right in a row. If a darling like Valve can suffer in the user ratings like that, it's important to walk away from it with the right lesson learned.
There are already games out there where DLC locks out vital content, so the metaphor stands, as far as Portal 2 is concerned, Gabe Newell is testing the waters, you may see nothing wrong with cosmetic items, but you can rest assured it won't stop there.sirtommygunn said:Wait what when did we start talking about the kind of dlc in games that locks vital content? We are talking about the kind of DLC that has no effect on the actual gameplay. Your metaphor doesn't work because you are talking about something vital to the house, whereas we were talking about something that doesn't change the game in any significant way. A house that doesn't have a toilet is significantly different from a house that does have a toilet, but two houses that are identical with the exception of a different colored laundry room are not significantly different.Flipao said:If somebody sold me a house and when I moved in the toilet had a sign asking me to pay an extra 20% to unlock it I'd be pretty upset. It shouldn't be different for a game.sirtommygunn said:I didn't read the rest, but it seems kind of odd that you claim you can't see a sense of entitlement while demanding companies give you stuff simply because other games did it.Therumancer said:The problem is that nowadays the game industry is trying to charge extra money for the kinds of things that have traditionally been included in games as part of the overall product. Alternate costumes have been a standby for games for a very long time, one of the incentives to replay games a second time with the new look, or something part of the experience revolved around as you tried to figure out how to unlock them.
A lot of people talk about an attitude of entitlement among gamers when it comes to these kidns of things, but I don't think that's really the case.
Not really. To both those things.Therumancer said:I was pointing out that even if it's a wonderful game, it's getting bombed, and that takes a LOT of people, far more than can be mustered by trolls who go after just about any game out there.
Wait, so which is it, buying it or playing it? "Didn't buy it" would be a totally different kind of thing. Not playing it is absolutely an important piece to be missing.Secondly, the attitude of "if you haven't played it, you can't have an opinion" is one of the most dangerous ones out there right now, and at the root of a lot of problems. Even if I was talking about the game content, as opposed to reception, the opinion of someone who didn't buy the game should be pretty well valued for the reasons on why they didn't buy it, as opposed to attacked.
That is not a problem. That is your problem. So we don't have our own time machines, big whoop. You'd request your money back for seeing a crappy movie? Only douchebags with feelings of entitlement do that. It very much transfers over to video games as well. There is no guarantee of making you like the game so that the store can keep your money. You buy the game so that you can have the game. That is the way shit works.Right now a big problem with the gaming industry is that when someone buys a game, and doesn't like it, the industry already has their money. With digital downloads, or purchused PC software, you can't decide "gee, this sucks" and bring it back, your stuck with it. It's quite a racket when you get down to it, and probably screws dissatistifed, legitimate purchusers worse than the pirates they are trying to crack down on screw the companies. Even with console games, they can be tricky to return. While Gamestop tends to be decent with people returning new games for full value within a couple of days, there are retail places that will give people major issues with returning any kind of opened software, including console games. Some game shops also force you to return any opened product as a "trade in" meaning you lose half or more of the value of the game just to try it and see if you like it.
Yes. I agree with your fabricated exposition about why things are the way they are. Your reading into the events totally makes sense and must be right because you seem to really know what you're talking about. Tell me, is there a class or something you've taken that I can try to get into to become as knowledgeable as yourself about Internet goings-on?In the case of this discussion though, understand that I have said nothing bad about Portal 2 itself, other than it's not being well received. The user ratings speak for themselves. The point is that all this talk about "metabombing" and how it's all over "trolls upset about day #1 DLC" are just excuses from those not wanting to face reality. Deserved or not, and loved by some or not, "Portal 2" is not being received as well as it has sold.
You're just insulting Portal 2 by lumping it together with that other game. Although, I haven't played Dragon Age 2, so I guess you can ignore that remark on the grounds of it being baseless conjecture.I think the refusal to face reality is largely because by acknowleging that what happened here and with "Dragon Age 2",
You're right. And that lesson? "Don't listen to random driveling idiots online."If a darling like Valve can suffer in the user ratings like that, it's important to walk away from it with the right lesson learned.
Several people have posted this sentiment, that Shamus is being rude here, but I disagree. I think when people behave like this, they're being idiots. I don't care if the poster has a Ph.D, if they're going to behave so childishly then they're being an idiot. I don't think it's "name-calling" to call someone out for a bad decision.Kyprioth said:I stopped reading this when I came across the word "idiot." Name-calling makes your post seem extremely unprofessional. I could go to a hundred different sites on the internet and get content like this; I come to the Escapist because I thought its contributors were a bit more mature than this article has demonstrated.
Just because I disagree with you, does not make me an idiot. It doesn't make you an idiot either.
Let's play a little game here. If a game is "good" but "not groundbreaking", what sort of score do you give it? I think a 6 is probably a little low, I could see a 7 or even an 8, I mean, that's a B or a C, on an alphabetic scale.bound4earth said:Valve disappointed on this one. The game is good, but not groundbreaking in anyway. It costs about $30-35 too much money and should have stayed in Orange Box 2.
Amen to that.millertime059 said:Sturgeon's law is the unfortunate explanation here. When he said 90% of everything is crap, he wasn't excluding sentient beings. Fortunately the fact that things tend to group with others of their kind protects us here. In this case it is within the dregs of our gene pool known as 4chan. Every now and again they escape their biological wasteland to pollute some other aspect of the Internet. Their opinion is irrelevant, as it is the sad product of a twisted, and malfunctioning mind. Do not care for them, care only for those who may be unwittingly influenced by their verbal vomit. Those who find the overall score, and do not see the twisted machinations that produced it. For while they are yet weak, they are still not without hope. For we can teach them critical thinking. They may learn that REVIEW SCORES DON'T F*@&ING MATTER. Rather more important is the analysis behind the score.
This is why I hate metacritic... people care only for the numbers.
Hell even in Team Fortress 2 when the serves wouldn't connect with Steam it still allowed everyone to play it, just without all the gear they had gotten.2. Ideally, DLC should be multiplayer-only.
Remember the mess a couple of weeks ago when the servers went down at BioWare and suddenly all non-pirates were locked out of their game of Dragon Age? That sucked. Servers going down should not impact a single-player game. Being unable to reach the internet should not impact a single-player game.
But if the DLC is part of the multiplayer portion of the game, no problem. If you can't reach the servers then you can't play anyway.
*points to critics' score of 95* That's not well-recieved?Therumancer said:Arcticflame said:There isn't though, it was metabombed, if you followed the user scores like I did, as soon as the game was unlocked for user reviewing, it went straight to a user score of 3-5, fluctuating around wildly. It stayed like this before people could possible have finished the game, and people who certainly had never played the game were jumping on the bandwagon with the reviews, as none of it made any sense, page on page of people prattling on about day one dlc when they clearly had no idea what was going on.Therumancer said:I'm not parroting anyone's opinions though, all I'm doing is pointing out that there is a negative reception. The point here being that rather than acting like there is something wrong with the people for making the complaints, perhaps when you have this strong of a negative reaction, you should simply accept that there is something wrong with the game.
The point here being that just because a game is getting a bad user review, does not mean it's being "metabombed" for some trivial reason. Especially seeing as the whole "metabombing" concern has been recent, due to a couple of high profile games getting tanked in user reception, despite the groups that are considered to be responsible for it having been out there for a long time, and having never gotten this kind of noticible reaction.
Yesterday it's score was 7.2, now it's score is 7.9, this is because the actual people who have played and finished the game are finishing around now, reviewing it, and bringing the score up to what people actually think, I think if you take out the day one troll bombs, the user score would be around a 9.
If you note, the user score for Dragon age 2 started low, and has stayed low
There was certainly some bombing going on there, but there were legitimate grievances for it. As much as I liked Dragon Age 2, I certainly see the flaws that the lowest common denominator are whining about on that one.
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Well, we'll see where the ratings even out as. I think the first "portal" was more of a phenomena than "Dragon Age" was, and as such I think the rating has become a user warzone of sorts, because there are doubtlessly people flocking to the metaratings just to give it perfect reviews to offset the alleged "bombing".
I don't doubt that plenty of people did have the day 1 DLC figure into their rating, and were quite blunt about it (and let's be honest, when something annoys you, it's wise to make that clear). However arguements about how the ratings were too fast for people to finish the game are rather ridiculous, after all you can tell pretty quick if you like a game or not, and if you don't like a game your not going to finish it. The guy who plays for an hour or two and decides "wow, I really don't like this, and am not going to finish it, this sucks" has every right to rate the game accordingly, that is after all the whole point of the ratings.
It will be interesting to see how things turn out in the end, but right now I do tend to think that as shocking as it is, Valve has finally made a game that isn't being well received.