Do Bat-fans actually like Batman, or do they actually want Az-Bat/BatPunisher?

[Rikun]

With the success of Nolan's Batman trilogy, the brutality of the Arkham games, and the ever-darkening tone of the DC Cinematic Universe, it's clear that people love having a darker, grittier Batman. Dawn of Justice even exemplifies this by having what people argue is the most brutal on-screen Batman to date (kudos to Ben Affleck BTW). Heck, I've talked with a lot of fans who revel so much in how dark the Dark Knight can become, it's made me ask whether or not Bat-fans really like Batman, or just the idea of how brutal he can get.

Remember Knightfall, where Batman's back was broken and while he recovered they got Azrael to don the cowl and protect Gotham? If you do, you'll also remember that Azrael became so unhinged as Batman he started coming up with more brutal methods of cleaning up Gotham (which involved flamethrowers and stabby things). It finally got to the point where Bruce Wayne decided enough was enough and took back the mantle by force, proving once and for all that the Batman wasn't just another murderous vigilante, but a protector of the city.

Nowadays when I talk to Batfans though, it feels like they preferred AzBat and don't even realize it. I've seen fans who preferred Batman kill the criminal scum of Gotham and even rejoiced when he stopped messing around and started showing off the high caliber firepower. And while I get that Gotham is home to the worst criminal psychopaths of the DC universe, Wasn't the point of the Bat to have someone bring hope to Gotham as opposed to just having another psycho killing other psychos? It's almost as if they'd rather have Wayne's moral core so broken he'd basically become the Punisher in a Batsuit, completely negating why Bruce Wayne took up the cowl in the first place.

This isn't even getting into how Bat-fans say Batman is more relate-able than Superman, yet constantly derive him to be more OP "because he's Batman".

To the big Batman fans out there, is this really the case or am I just dealing with a small yet vocal minority of Gothamites here?

 

[Bilious Green_v1legacy]

After all the dark and gritty, I really want someone to do a Batman movie styles after the sixties TV show. They've gone about as far as they can with serious, so why not go the other way?

 

[Silvanus]

I love Batman to bits, and I do love it when superheroes get a bit brutal (the Arkham games & the Daredevil series are spot on; the combat is visceral).

Killing is beyond the pale. I consider Az-Bat and Punisher to be hypocrites, and as worth putting down as the other criminals.

 

[Silvanus]

Punisher I'm okay with. He knows he's a hypocrite. He's kinda like The Operative in Serenity. He knows he's evil. Pretty sure there was a story once where the Punisher basically said that the only way to kill all criminals is to kill himself. And there was that time he just let Captain America beat the shit out of him because fighting back would mean trying to hurt a good guy, something he refuses to do. Good writers are actually able to do some surprisingly cool stuff with Punisher's fucked up morality.

Aye, that's a scene from Civil War. He's a brilliant character, who can be used in brilliant ways, I certainly wouldn't argue that.

 

[Bilious Green_v1legacy]

After all the dark and gritty, I really want someone to do a Batman movie styles after the sixties TV show. They've gone about as far as they can with serious, so why not go the other way?

I hear if you stand in front of a mirror and say his name three times Joel Schumacher will appear and direct Batman and Robin 2. Obviously nobody's been stupid enough to ever try it.

No, I don't mean unintentionally goofy, I mean full blown camp, with "Biff!", "Pow!" sounds and the silly dance interludes. Basically Batman meets Austin Powers.

 

[Saelune]

Batman was always supposed to be the darker not by the book hero. Doesn't have to kill every thug, but in my mind, by choosing not to kill people like The Joker and Zsasz, he is guilty of every victim since then. Been watching Daredevil season 2 and am having the same problem. Petty criminals who do so cause they feel they have no other way, that's one thing, but career criminals, serial killers, and depraved maniacs are another, and a few broken bones wont stop them.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

If you are referring to how he kills in BvS, fans are pretty mixed on that.

You don't need Az-bats for Batman to be brutal. There are a lot of incarnations of Batman that are way more savage than Azrael. To me, when it comes to the brutality of Batman, there should be a fine balance, and it should make sense for the character.

He shouldn't be breaking the kneecaps of some unprivileged Gotham youth who decided to rob a store, but I would definitely be okay with him snapping the wrists of a Mob gangster, or stabbing the foot of a drug dealer.

But he should not kill on a daily basis. It makes for an interesting story when he does, but those are always self-contained comics, standalone or Elseworld. Which goes to show that Batman killing just does not work.

Batman refraining to kill, in my eyes, makes him stronger than the madness that permeates through Gotham. It forces him to be clever, to be better than his enemies, to think of clever ways of beating a machine gun bearing thug.

 

[Silvanus]

Does beating the shit out of someone not defending himself not make you a bad guy? Sounds like a trap to me.

Well, Cap did stop when Punisher said he wasn't going to fight back-- and it was Punisher murdering two supervillains (Goldbug and The Plunderer, IIRC) that prompted the spat in the first place.

 

[Cheesy Goodness]

Criminals probably wouldn't fear Batman if he just slapped them around a little. He needs to be truly threatening and cruel with his methods. The degree of how far he goes is most certainly up for debate. I like Arkham Batman a lot, if that tells you anything, and is likely my favorite version at the moment.

I was very conflicted with Batfleck being a killer in Batman v Superman. It was almost a little cathartic seeing him not having any remorse at all and doing away with his moral code. It does go against the character. However, you could also argue that it is a character flaw for him to allow the likes of Joker to continue his destructive ways. He is basically a terrorist and won't ever stop until he is dead. He's still alive in Suicide Squad, so I'd love to hear a justification for why he's still around. Like I said, there is a fine line on how far he should go. Him killing or branding criminals is probably a step in the wrong direction.

 

[Wuvlycuddles]

People also thought Rorshach was the hero in The Watchmen. Some people are just dumb. I think most bat fans were upset with Batfleck shooting folk.

I'm actually amazed anyone could think anybody in that book would even remotely qualify as being heroic. As for Batfleck, as long as they address the killing in later films, like they say the events of BvS were a reminder of his core values I'm ok with it. But I suspect that would require the writer and director to actually give a shit about their characters.

 

[Kae]

I've always been a pretty big fan of Bruce Tim's version of Batman and I pretty much absolutely hated the story to Batman Arkham City, I thought Asylum was tolerable but I had some issues with the story but with city, I just knew that wasn't Batman, everything from the way he treats Harley Quinn to the fight with Mr. Freeze it's just not Batman, seriously though the fight with Mr. Freeze is fucking stupid, all Mr Freeze was asking was for Batman to promise him he would save Nora from the Joker and Batman is like "I don't have time for that bullshit so instead I'm going to waste my time beating the shit out of you and blowing your face up with explosives.", it made no sense, all I wanted was for Batman to say yes, because Batman would save Nora and would realize that Fries wasn't the bad guy in that situation, seriously though fuck the Arkham series of games it's absolute bullshit, I mean I liked how both Asylum and City played but the story is just awful.

As for the Nolan trilogy, to be honest I've never liked it, always thought it was poorly written and that they should fire David S. Goyer, I can barely remember anything about Begins other than I thought it was pretty bad, The Dark Knight had a pretty good performance by Heath Ledger but the script makes no fucking sense at all if you give it any quantity of thought and the less said about the piece of shit that Rises was the better.

As for Tim Burton's 1989 version, it wasn't Batman but I'll be damned if I don't think of Danny Elfman's score as the Batman music, seriously though the music in that movie is absolutely fantastic, so I forgive all of it's sins because it gave me the perfect Batman theme song.

As for Batman V Superman, I hated Goyer's version of Superman way more than I did Batman, so fuck that, I'm not watching it, if I do all I'll do is complain about how shit it is because it's not only Goyer's shitty take on Superman and shittier take than his last one on Batman, it's also based on The Dark Knight Returns and The Death and Return of Superman, 2 comics that I think are crap to begin with, so why bother?

 

[RJ 17]

After all the dark and gritty, I really want someone to do a Batman movie styles after the sixties TV show. They've gone about as far as they can with serious, so why not go the other way?

I second this notion...I'd love to see a full-length big-budget Batman feature that goes super-ultra-mega CAMP! Just get absolutely ridiculous with it! Bring back the Bat-Shark Repellent! Bring back the Bat-Goofy Dance! Bring back all that sweet, delicious campiness!

 

[Something Amyss]

With the success of Nolan's Batman trilogy, the brutality of the Arkham games, and the ever-darkening tone of the DC Cinematic Universe, it's clear that people love having a darker, grittier Batman.

Look, I don't want to turn this into another BVS thread, but...have you looked at the reviews and reactions? Clearly, a good number of people have an issue with the version of Batman, even people who liked Affleck as him.

I don't know that it's clear this is the only possible route that would sell, either. I know that it's the way marketing has been going, but that doesn't mean anything. Hollywood insists on dark and gritty even as the Avengers movies make billions, and even D-list Marvel heroes are making almost as much as Man of Steel--starring one of DC's flagship characters, no less.

Even Deadpool, the "definitely R-Rated" movie is lighter than the tone of recent DC movies. But do we really know people wouldn't have gone to see a brighter Batman trilogy? Or a brighter punch-up? Maybe people are going less because it's dark and more because it's Batman.

I'm actually amazed anyone could think anybody in that book would even remotely qualify as being heroic.

He's a violent, tiny-minded, psychopathic bigot. I'm surprised he doesn't have a solo movie yet.

As for Batfleck, as long as they address the killing in later films, like they say the events of BvS were a reminder of his core values I'm ok with it. But I suspect that would require the writer and director to actually give a shit about their characters.

I think they already addressed it and that's probably going to be the final word. Heroes either die or they stop being heroes.

BVS has finally taken the love letter to Rumsfield/Cheney to its final extreme.

Batman was always supposed to be the darker not by the book hero. Doesn't have to kill every thug, but in my mind, by choosing not to kill people like The Joker and Zsasz, he is guilty of every victim since then. Been watching Daredevil season 2 and am having the same problem. Petty criminals who do so cause they feel they have no other way, that's one thing, but career criminals, serial killers, and depraved maniacs are another, and a few broken bones wont stop them.

There is no "always" with superheroes and comics and especially with legacy characters. We wouldn't have the modern Batman or Superman if that was the case. While the original Batman was darker than the Silver Age one, Miller took him to depths that his creators literally wouldn't have fathomed as possibilities because of the culture of comics at the time. At this point, it's utterly irrelevant what Kane/Finger intended.

Batman's portrayal evolves with the cultural zeitgeist and will continue to in the future.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Meh I have seen worse ElseWorlds version of Batman then Batman being allowed to kill and use guns.

 

[hermes]

Here is the thing... there is not one Batman, just different interpretations of the character that varies depending of the writer, the world and what is hot at the moment. Given that the character is over 80 years old, he has seen a lot of incarnations. Heck, he even has different incarnations on comics that are released at the same time. The only constant of Batman is that he dresses like a bat (sort of) and is a millionaire that fights crime because he grow up an orphan.

That is it. That is the extend of the definition of the character. Other than that, he has been everything from a boy scout to a nihilistic psychotic murdered, from campy to mopey, from justice paragon to moral relativist.

Spoiler

I do understand that you are not happy with the current incarnation (and I agree), but I think you have to consider that there is no cannon version of the character, just an idea that gets molded to the mindset of the author.