I get about as angry at men 'challenging masculinity' by watching MLP as I do about women 'challenging femininity' by wearing trousers. In that I don't, at all, because it stopped being the 1800s a long time ago.
Do bronies challenge traditional masculine values?
- Thread starter Seydaman
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Well: yes.
Much like other subgroups[footnote]*shameless self-promotion* Last year I made a similar argument for the case of Furrydom [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.376188.14632238][/footnote] I can't help but feel that most of the appeal of identifying with such a group lies in a calculated denial of usual societal expectations to the point of outward rebellion - it's not so much about simply liking something but to tell everyone that one is somehow different and interesting; A method of very unsubtle identity-building or plain Escapism if you want. Of course, there is a lot more to this and social-groups of these kinds are notoriously inhomogenous and the reason why people ascribe to them can by no means just being reduced to the above. The diversity of the group needs to be kept in mind when talking about it.
Still what makes me believe that it's a bigger factor in this case is the resonance that the series got in the first place. Catalyzed by the Internet a television Series outside of it's target audience had in course of less than a year spawned an extremely vocal fanbase with people proudly proclaiming their love of the series in numerous artworks, forum avatars and forums. And, frankly, I can't think of any other show that led to the creation of such a vocal fanbase in such a short timeframe. Thus, I'd say that proclaiming one's love for the show is in many cases also a statement of rejection towards traditional gender roles and ideas of maturity. Gender roles because the show caters to a young female audience and utilizes a lot of cutesy imagery and (I assume) tropes that are traditionally seen as female, all things that aren't expected to resonate with a male audience because of the standardized male stereotypes. Ideas of maturity because there is also an age-difference in the target audience and the males that watch it plus the usual stereotype of the animation-age ghetto.
A cultural aspect, however, needs to be taken into account I think. The socio-cultural setup of the US with it's still tight-knit traditional communities and the enshrined notion of individuality and freedom might have contributed to the resonance I spoke of earlier and provided the initial drive to create a fandom this powerful.
Of course all of the above is simply an assumption and of course doesn't mean that identifying as a Brony or simply proclaiming ones love for the show is for some reason a problem at all - in the same vein that identifying as a "Gamer" is a problem at all.[footnote]At least not until it doesn't go out of hand and signifies some deeper psychological issues that need treatment[/footnote] In fact, I think that a little bit of self-reflection on those traditional roles is what a society needs once in a while. So Bronies keep on rolling
Much like other subgroups[footnote]*shameless self-promotion* Last year I made a similar argument for the case of Furrydom [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.376188.14632238][/footnote] I can't help but feel that most of the appeal of identifying with such a group lies in a calculated denial of usual societal expectations to the point of outward rebellion - it's not so much about simply liking something but to tell everyone that one is somehow different and interesting; A method of very unsubtle identity-building or plain Escapism if you want. Of course, there is a lot more to this and social-groups of these kinds are notoriously inhomogenous and the reason why people ascribe to them can by no means just being reduced to the above. The diversity of the group needs to be kept in mind when talking about it.
Still what makes me believe that it's a bigger factor in this case is the resonance that the series got in the first place. Catalyzed by the Internet a television Series outside of it's target audience had in course of less than a year spawned an extremely vocal fanbase with people proudly proclaiming their love of the series in numerous artworks, forum avatars and forums. And, frankly, I can't think of any other show that led to the creation of such a vocal fanbase in such a short timeframe. Thus, I'd say that proclaiming one's love for the show is in many cases also a statement of rejection towards traditional gender roles and ideas of maturity. Gender roles because the show caters to a young female audience and utilizes a lot of cutesy imagery and (I assume) tropes that are traditionally seen as female, all things that aren't expected to resonate with a male audience because of the standardized male stereotypes. Ideas of maturity because there is also an age-difference in the target audience and the males that watch it plus the usual stereotype of the animation-age ghetto.
A cultural aspect, however, needs to be taken into account I think. The socio-cultural setup of the US with it's still tight-knit traditional communities and the enshrined notion of individuality and freedom might have contributed to the resonance I spoke of earlier and provided the initial drive to create a fandom this powerful.
Of course all of the above is simply an assumption and of course doesn't mean that identifying as a Brony or simply proclaiming ones love for the show is for some reason a problem at all - in the same vein that identifying as a "Gamer" is a problem at all.[footnote]At least not until it doesn't go out of hand and signifies some deeper psychological issues that need treatment[/footnote] In fact, I think that a little bit of self-reflection on those traditional roles is what a society needs once in a while. So Bronies keep on rolling
Depends. I like that dude and his topics, but that was a bit ambiguous.
Hipsters and their styles (whatever they are) are changing things as well. There is a certain scarf or something, actually I'm not even sure its a scarf, but it seemed to be worn exclusively by females at my uni. Then one day I saw hipsters wearing it too. They are pushing against old backwards beliefs mostly in the way they act and their politics, and so are the bronies, especially the vocal bronies, but as for big change I'd say no.
Hipsters and their styles (whatever they are) are changing things as well. There is a certain scarf or something, actually I'm not even sure its a scarf, but it seemed to be worn exclusively by females at my uni. Then one day I saw hipsters wearing it too. They are pushing against old backwards beliefs mostly in the way they act and their politics, and so are the bronies, especially the vocal bronies, but as for big change I'd say no.
To a much lesser degree than they'd like to believe, but somewhat, I suppose.
Personally, I don't make a big fucking deal out of liking the show. It doesn't define my identity or whatever, and I'll say like another person here did - bronies are kind of a fringe group, not the norm. So long as they're not the creepily obsessive kind, I'm okay with the fanbase doing what it does.
Personally, I don't make a big fucking deal out of liking the show. It doesn't define my identity or whatever, and I'll say like another person here did - bronies are kind of a fringe group, not the norm. So long as they're not the creepily obsessive kind, I'm okay with the fanbase doing what it does.
Well, what strikes me about the show is that it blurs distinctions between adult and child as much as male and female.
I haven't actually watched the show so my viewpoints somewhat limited, but if it's central theme is about friendship i don't really see that as being "un-masculine". The value of friendship crops up in equal measure in both male and female entertainment because it's a universal value, but they differ in how this value is presented. Male friendship has often been portrayed as akin to "comradeship" and often crops up in war films and dramas, where manly men die noble deaths rescuing their injured friends. What i suppose is interesting is that with MLP, it's presenting the value of friendship through the lens of a female child rather than an adult male. Maybe MLP has addressed some unnoticed entertainment need among adult males to present friendship in a more straightforward, less dramatic manner.
Or perhaps it isn't about friendship at all, and the MLP fandom simply like a quality show and revel in it's innocence. A lot of male "geek" entertainment you could say is emotionally quite serious and violent- with Zombie apocalypses, Call of Duty clones and epic fantasy quests. All are forms of escapism, but maybe MLP provides a different form of "escapism", one that is childish and innocent- which is perhaps arguably the most powerful form of escapism.
I haven't actually watched the show so my viewpoints somewhat limited, but if it's central theme is about friendship i don't really see that as being "un-masculine". The value of friendship crops up in equal measure in both male and female entertainment because it's a universal value, but they differ in how this value is presented. Male friendship has often been portrayed as akin to "comradeship" and often crops up in war films and dramas, where manly men die noble deaths rescuing their injured friends. What i suppose is interesting is that with MLP, it's presenting the value of friendship through the lens of a female child rather than an adult male. Maybe MLP has addressed some unnoticed entertainment need among adult males to present friendship in a more straightforward, less dramatic manner.
Or perhaps it isn't about friendship at all, and the MLP fandom simply like a quality show and revel in it's innocence. A lot of male "geek" entertainment you could say is emotionally quite serious and violent- with Zombie apocalypses, Call of Duty clones and epic fantasy quests. All are forms of escapism, but maybe MLP provides a different form of "escapism", one that is childish and innocent- which is perhaps arguably the most powerful form of escapism.
That's the thing, though; for every brony who tries to deny that the show is girly, there's a good dozen or so others who have learned (or at least first recognized on a conscious level) that girliness isn't bad precisely because of their experiences in watching the show. Which shouldn't be any kind of social achievement in 2013, but considering that I, a male, have had to explain to more than one female that girliness is irrelevant as long as the work itself is good, it remains one nevertheless. And if you want to effect social change, the first step is to get your ideas out there and get people accustomed to them; once people stop perceiving widespread appreciation for female-oriented media as being abnormal or a big deal, they will cease to treat it as such, at which point you've won. This isn't to say that the MLP fandom is deliberately pursuing this goal (nor should they, really, since that would be pretentiously dressing up a simple interest as some sort of brave social crusade when the ideal result is to get people to accept it as an interest as normal as any other), but I'd still treat it as a valuable "first step" of sorts.Yal said:
Bronies don't "challenge" shit. They're fans (of varying and often concerning degrees) of a show, they're not some massive sudden majority or political movement.
They "challenge" something just as much as Trekkies "challenge" anything. In that they don't.
They "challenge" something just as much as Trekkies "challenge" anything. In that they don't.
And yet somehow none of this came up when PowerPuff Girls was popular? I'm just sick to death of people dissecting the possible reasons and/or implications of people liking a particular cartoon.
Considering those masculine values these days are just a load of gender stereotyping I find it's not challenging anything and certainly not doing any harm by being a brony.
Is it wrong that I say yes?omega 616 said:
I mean, the latter already wears women's clothing and the earlier is down with anything that's cool enough.
If there was a horse with a pompadour and a fetish for hotrods and rock, Fonz would have said "Eyyyyy" and watched it.
Then because the Fonz watched it, it would be cool.
Anyway...yes, I suppose you could say that they do. The effectiveness (and the fact that it was a thriving ironic internet fad in 2011/2012) is debatable, though. There's probably a good amount of people who just enjoy the shock value of saying they like a show meant for girls/kids, and a good amount of people who deny that it's girly which sort of undermines the "movement".
As usual people are way overthinking about ponies, they watch it because they seem to enjoy it. THE END
I think the only reason MLP is so noticeable in internet culture is due to the initial backlash against the first fans, many of whom were quite irritating. They then responded to the backlash by being more vocal and irritating which caused other people to take notice and it just kind of snowballed.
Bloody 4chan...
Bloody 4chan...
Actually the confusion about bronies is not so much that they don't belong to the targeted gender but also the fact they don't belong to the targeted age group. I mean watching something meant for the opposing gender is one thing but also the wrong age category is another. I mean if a 20y old man were to tell me he's a huge fan of a typical grandma series i'd also go "dafuq?".
And therefor i don't really think the backlash mainly comes from them "challenging masculinity". I mean if a 14y old dude came and told me he loved twilight i'd be like "why?". Now if a 30y old dude told me the same i'd be like "Wut?!". (<= much more confused response)
And therefor i don't really think the backlash mainly comes from them "challenging masculinity". I mean if a 14y old dude came and told me he loved twilight i'd be like "why?". Now if a 30y old dude told me the same i'd be like "Wut?!". (<= much more confused response)
At the same time social media wasn't in the same place it is today. There are more variables between the two than just their directed and actual fanbase.CriticKitten said:
I find the difference to be that PPG, while still inherently "girly" had a lot of not so girly qualities like a lot of fighty action scenes.Susan Arendt said:
I'm not sure of any PPG episode that didn't have at least 1 fight scene in them, even if it was relatively short compared to the rest of the episode.
MLP:FIM has a lot of episodes that aren't like that. Slice of life episodes where there really is no action and its about just little things. Suited for Success was an entire episode about Rarity gettin the fame she always wanted, then realizin it wasn't worth givin up her friends for. It was also considered to be one of the better episodes in the show.