Do bronies challenge traditional masculine values?

[Duncan Belfast]

But it is a very sensible argument. I mean, i have seen quite a few bronies say they like the show because it talks about friendship and such. And while that may be true it still talks about it in an extremely childish way. It's like having a uni professor teaching the same way a 1st grade teacher would. In a sense it all boils down to one point: bronies like to be communicated with as if they were kids. And that is quite weird. Surely most would agree they would find it inappropriate or insulting if someone would talk to them as if they were 8y old children. And even the "good animation" argument seems dodgy at best. Because even if they are good we're still talking about a little kids show being well animated. The animation is a way to wrap the content, if the content isn't appropriate at all than no amount of good animation will make it so.

Now off course this is my view on things and i may be terribly wrong.

Except that it doesn't talk about it in an extremely childish way. (I need to find one of those "What we're watching/ What people think we're watching" pictures.) Even then, that is only one of many reasons people enjoy it. Well-written and likeable characters in a children's show are still well-written and likeable characters. Let's not forget the adult references in the show. No kid is going to get a reference to Apocalypse Now, The Big Lebowski, or The Exorcist.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

But it is a very sensible argument. I mean, i have seen quite a few bronies say they like the show because it talks about friendship and such. And while that may be true it still talks about it in an extremely childish way. It's like having a uni professor teaching the same way a 1st grade teacher would. In a sense it all boils down to one point: bronies like to be communicated with as if they were kids. And that is quite weird. Surely most would agree they would find it inappropriate or insulting if someone would talk to them as if they were 8y old children. And even the "good animation" argument seems dodgy at best. Because even if they are good we're still talking about a little kids show being well animated. The animation is a way to wrap the content, if the content isn't appropriate at all than no amount of good animation will make it so.

Now off course this is my view on things and i may be terribly wrong.

Except that it doesn't talk about it in an extremely childish way. (I need to find one of those "What we're watching/ What people think we're watching" pictures.) Even then, that is only one of many reasons people enjoy it. Well-written and likeable characters in a children's show are still well-written and likeable characters. Let's not forget the adult references in the show. No kid is going to get a reference to Apocalypse Now, The Big Lebowski, or The Exorcist.

You forgot the reference/direct quoting of Blazing Saddles in "Swarm of the Century". Seriously, how can people see or hear a reference like that and still think the show is meant only for preteen girls?

 

[generals3]

Except that it doesn't talk about it in an extremely childish way. (I need to find one of those "What we're watching/ What people think we're watching" pictures.) Even then, that is only one of many reasons people enjoy it. Well-written and likeable characters in a children's show are still well-written and likeable characters. Let's not forget the adult references in the show. No kid is going to get a reference to Apocalypse Now, The Big Lebowski, or The Exorcist.

Random references to adult stuff don't really mean anything. I have watched/played things when I was little which had references way over my head but it didn't suddenly make those things "more mature". Writers tend to add "easter eggs" in their work. And let's also not forget that some adults watch shows with their kids, might just as well be a gimmick for those poor sobs who have to endure kids shows for the sake of their children.

And i'm sorry but for me explaining the importance of friendship with flying sparkling cartoon ponies is like explaining math with candy and pieces of pie. Not something you'd do if you targeted adults.

And while i cannot judge the characters (didn't watch enough of it to be able to judge that) i'm sorry but it still remains a children's show. Just like you have adult series with crappy characters and good ones you have the same in children's shows. But than again, maybe i'm just a cynical old fart (not that old physically though). I'm also the one who looks with judging eyes at peers who say they like movies like Ice Age.

 

[TheDarkestDerp]

Nope.

Not remotely.

If anything, they passively... to aggressively... reinforce them. The number of times I've wanted to retch in the face of an "Enlighted bronie" when they've spewed the words to effect "See how I'm so very cool with myself and my sexuality? See! I like MLPFiM, so therefore I'm challenging traditional male roles and blah blah blee bloo".

This pathetic and self-effacing twaddle is so openly absurd I almost don't know where to begin. So, "bronies"'re open-minded and also challenging because... why? They like a cartoon.... and they're 'sensitive' guys because... why? Is this show not for you, you say? You're cool with this, which is so obviously not for REAL men like you, so that makes you a softer, yet edgier, more well-rounded man? Um, no, it doesn't child. It makes you just as sexist and terrified of your own sexuality and how others perceive you as any other guy out there. By making that statement on gender politics and praising yourself, you passively state that this show is "FOR girls" defining their gender normative role and yours. You place yourself on some imaginary pedestal for 'not adhering' to traditional values you just reinforced with your previous statement, imp. *snofts in disdain*

This manner of nonsense has been around for decades, douchebag men... correction, "Guys" trying to show their "sensitivity" by reading poetry or watching particular films and so on, so forth. It just hasn't seemed quite so sad to me until now... Ugh.

 

[Rariow]

They would've a decade or two ago (Still can't believe the 90s is now "two decades ago"...), but by this point it's become pretty mainstream for men to not have to only like SHOOT BLOODSTORM XTREME BOOMFEST: THE EXPLODENING. I guess you COULD say they pose a challenge to traditional masculine values, but those values are outdated enough it's almost like saying the current government of, say, the UK poses a challenge to traditional feudalism (Obviously using a bit of hyperbole here, but I trust people will get where I'm coming from).

That, and (some) bronies have become the equivalent to hipsters, just butting in and flaunting their love of MLP. I have no trouble whatsoever with people being bronies, talking about MLP, having a pony avatar, etc... But I've had very unpleasant cases of bronies completely derailing things that have nothing to do with MLP, like for instance, there was a whole lot of them on a certain Bastion video on YouTube because it had been linked to by some MLP fanfic as background music. The comment section was absolutely flooded by people going on about MLP, and when I posted a comment about Bastion (Not responding in any way to any MLP comment, not telling them to cut it off, just quoting two lines from Bastion), I got no less than six responses being angry at me for "ruining the MLP conversation".

I guess that was a bit long-winded but my case is: You can't really issue a reasonable challenge to a set of established values unless you behave reasonably maturely about it. I know that the majority of MLP fans are reasonable people who'll limit their discussion of MLP on non-MLP related things to a reference and an avatar, but it's that minority who acts like they're some godly caste that makes the entirety of the brony community look like annoying, obnoxious and inconsiderate people. To be completely honest, kinda reminds me of the "PC master race" bunch, making every PC gamer look like an elitist asshole. As long as those people are around, bronies will be seen as immature and annoying, which impedes them from making any real challenge to traditional masculine values.

 

[DugMachine]

I doubt MLP is changing the traditional masculine values. Bronies are already a niche crowd on the internet who tend to stick to themselves.

That being said, It's my belief that the craze over the show is because it's aimed at children, preferably young girls and "men" picked it up to seem unique, a form of rebellion if you will.

Anyways, masculine values are changing on their own because we're becoming more progressive as a whole. With the internet, cultures are mixing like never before and out of this we get men (including myself) who are not afraid to be 'emotional', a thing that was frowned upon not even a few years ago.

 

[juyunseen]

I suppose I'm a Brony seeing as I obsessed over the show for seasons 1-2 (moved on to other shows. It's still okay, but it's not the center of my attention anymore) and run/ran (it's fate is undecided) a decently successful Ask Blog for the fandom.

My two cents is... why is this even a question? It's people liking an, admittedly strong, show. They just like it. They're not railing against the system. Guys liked the Powerpuff girls without feeling a need to boast about how they were redefining what it means to be a man.

If it's anything, it's an inevitability that as gender lines blur more and more, something like this was bound to happen. A group of guys latch onto a "girls show". I think it's just a sign of the beginning of the phrases 'girls shows' and 'boys show' are just kinda fading. Adventure Time fits the common definition of a boy's show, and yet the majority of fans I know in person are female.

We're not changing the status quo, we're just people who like something. Some of us are just really loud and want to feel special.

 

[Yal]

Sure. Ponies never got the same flak as Barbie, no body image issues, but we are looking at Hasbro's premiere pink aisle brand here. The adult equivalent would be romantic comedies and chick lit.

Take the element of "ponies" out of the show for a moment, and what do you have? A cast of characters who lead normal day-to-day lives, but who also have their own sets of superpowers that allow them to fight evil and mischief. All of the characters are single, and while they don't seem to detest the opposite sex they certainly aren't spending all of their time seeking them out, and it's pretty clear even if they settled down for a domestic life their dedication to their duty as heroes would come first. These characters all have their own personalities and flaws, and when they aren't fighting evil, solving mysteries, or helping others who are in trouble they're pushing each other and teaching each other lessons so that they can grow to become better people and friends.

That doesn't sound overtly feminine to me. In fact, that sounds rather like Power Rangers, or any other show from the 90s with heroes that can beat a villain and teach you a lesson about life in 22 minutes flat. Does covering all of that in a pink and pastel varnish really change any of those things? Chick lit isn't feminine because most of the people and stuff in it is pink. Chick lit is feminine because the topics and themes it deals with are almost exclusively feminine in nature. Relationships, domesticity, sexual submission. I don't think those things are really covered in MLP, at least not to a point where it can be argued that is an integral part of the show's theme.

I was more coming from the perspective that the fundamental unit of pony is not an episode of FiM, but a plastic horse doll with brushable hair. Given that we're talking about how the outside world views My Little Pony, the show itself is almost irrelevant in the face of the thirty-year history of the brand. People have such a visceral reaction to FiM, far beyond Powerpuff Girls or anything similar, because they already know MLP. It already has a particular box to fit in inside their heads.

Otherwise I think you're arguing that because the show is feminist it can't be feminine, which I don't think I agree with. It's not "traditional", in the turn-of-the-century, women-shouldn't-wear-trousers sense, but modern can still be feminine. Domestic, even, we've had episodes about organizing family gatherings and regular interludes on managing children. Applejack is a working mom even if she hasn't had any kids, the rest are all recognizable female character types (maybe Rainbow Dash is androgynous).

And of course the show fulfills the most basic constraint of chick lit: It has a female creator and female protagonists. That's really all a book needs to completely crater its male readership numbers.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

From my experience with bronies they, rather than challenging any sort of social norm, just eat a lot of Cheetos and burn through packs of rolling papers faster than an average fellow.

Of course, I don't know any of the weirdly obsessive sort. They don't really challenge masculine value either though. They are just creepy people, which has always existed.

 

[Duncan Belfast]

Random references to adult stuff don't really mean anything. I have watched/played things when I was little which had references way over my head but it didn't suddenly make those things "more mature". Writers tend to add "easter eggs" in their work. And let's also not forget that some adults watch shows with their kids, might just as well be a gimmick for those poor sobs who have to endure kids shows for the sake of their children.

Who said anything about making it more mature? The point is, the show does contain things that are specifically aimed at adults. Which implies that is is meant to be enjoyed by people of all ages. Also, keep in mind that "mature" and "can be enjoyed by adults" do not necessarily have to overlap.

And i'm sorry but for me explaining the importance of friendship with flying sparkling cartoon ponies is like explaining math with candy and pieces of pie. Not something you'd do if you targeted adults.

Because that isn't the part that targets adults. That's the part for the kids.

And while i cannot judge the characters (didn't watch enough of it to be able to judge that) i'm sorry but it still remains a children's show.

I think it was Walt Disney who said that "You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway." It shouldn't matter what the demographic is; there are things children enjoy, there are things adults enjoy, and there are things that transcend age groups. Things everyone can enjoy.

But than again, maybe i'm just a cynical old fart.

Probably. Never give up on fun.

 

[Demonjazz]

The bigger question is if angsty heroes with long hair, who whine all the time challenge traditional masculinity
OT: It's not expected of men to do this... So yes. But in a way no. It's just a TV show, the only difference between transformers, power rangers and other "Manly" Shows from MLP is that MLP is geared towards girls and doesn't involve as much fighting and etc

 

[Something Amyss]

I think it was Walt Disney who said that "You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway."

And yet, 80% of the entertainment industry does that.

And it's their bread and freaking butter.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Coming from this video

[YouTube]http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Est3UNs-LIk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEst3UNs-LIk[/YouTube]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Est3UNs-LIk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEst3UNs-LIk

What do you think?

Edit: My phone might be acting dumb about posting this...you can google the thread title.

Id say it challenges whats acceptable for a man to enjoy which is fine.

Challenging concepts of masculinity? doubt it. By that definition drag queens and women that ride harleys challenge what is feminine.

Gender is a spectrum one that a person often sways from one end to the other depending on the action and how varied they are in the actions of there day to day lives. A guy can pamper himself one minute and then get into a brawl. Those actions are still feminine and masculine by themselves. the aforementioned male is able simply able to channel both kinds of intent.

I love being human you get to have your cake and eat it too sometimes.

 

[AlbertoDeSanta]

No. Most of us just watch the show because we genuinely enjoy it. We may inadvertently 'challenge' these 'traditional masculine values' you speak of, but it's really not intentional. I don't know a single Brony who is one because it's edgy or not normal.

 

[irishda]

First, it's not really challenging masculinity any more so than any other effeminate activities men are involved in (dance, sewing, styling, decorating, etc). Second, I don't think it's prevalent enough to even be considered one of the driving forces of a redefining of what it means to be a mean. Sure the majority of the show's audience is male, but those men are subsequently a very small minority among the male population itself. To be fair, most men are not in traditionally feminine jobs/pursue feminine hobbies and likes. But then that's why a western society's definition of a manly man is still the guy on the cover of the Brawny packaging.

 

[floppylobster]

No. In the 80s there were a lot of guys watching 'Jem and the Holograms'. It just wasn't as obvious because the Internet was not as prevalent as it is now. I'd assume this sort of stuff has been going on for many years before that too. Even Spongebob has a similar overly optimistic view of the world that many find attractive. Japan has been doing this sort of thing for years so it's no surprise America is catching up considering how much anime young American males seem to watch.

 

[A.A.K]

No.
They're not challenging the definition of masculinity, it's not changing the definition of masculinity.
It's not masculine. It's a show designed for prepubescent girls.
I don't care if you watch it or not, I truly don't; but I don't think you're particularly 'manly' if you're a fan.

 

[Olas]

I don't think so, because brony culture isn't typically thought of as being masculine. In other words they haven't changed masculine values, they've simply ignored and/or broken off from them.

To challenge traditional masculine values you have to show that something once thought unmasculine can in fact be so, or vice versa. I don't think anybody sees MLP as being a "masculine" show. Instead they've shown that something thought unmasculine can have a male following that doesn't care about it being unmasculine and therefore doesn't care if they seem less masculine by association.

 

[mooncalf]

If I see a football fan in his team colours raving happy about his team and it's performance, it amounts to the same thing in my eyes to see a brony raving happy about the latest pinky pie-centric episode.
It is not unexpected or revolutionary behaviour, and the road to this particular subject matter was paved with dozens of other broad-target-audience cartoons.

 

[Lilani]

I was more coming from the perspective that the fundamental unit of pony is not an episode of FiM, but a plastic horse doll with brushable hair. Given that we're talking about how the outside world views My Little Pony, the show itself is almost irrelevant in the face of the thirty-year history of the brand. People have such a visceral reaction to FiM, far beyond Powerpuff Girls or anything similar, because they already know MLP. It already has a particular box to fit in inside their heads.

Ah, now I understand where you're coming from on that.

Otherwise I think you're arguing that because the show is feminist it can't be feminine, which I don't think I agree with. It's not "traditional", in the turn-of-the-century, women-shouldn't-wear-trousers sense, but modern can still be feminine. Domestic, even, we've had episodes about organizing family gatherings and regular interludes on managing children. Applejack is a working mom even if she hasn't had any kids, the rest are all recognizable female character types (maybe Rainbow Dash is androgynous).

I understand that the show is still quite feminine. I was just saying the femininity stems more from the aesthetics rather than the actual themes and morals of the show. It comes from both of course, but the way I see the show the aesthetics produce more than the content.

And of course the show fulfills the most basic constraint of chick lit: It has a female creator and female protagonists. That's really all a book needs to completely crater its male readership numbers.

I've heard this before, and I rather find it disheartening (though I know your saying it doesn't mean you agree with it). This is apparently the reason J.K. Rowling used that pen name when writing Harry Potter rather than her real name Joanne Rowling, because it's marketing suicide for a female author to write a book geared toward either gender and to make it known in the title that she is a woman. Yet another one of those things about women we haven't quite swept out of society's unconscious yet.