I have to agree. Critical intel is my favorite column on the escapist. I don't always agree with the interpretation of the history in some articles, the column is always an enjoyable read. I even pick up information about the restoration of Angkor Wat that I knew nothing about. I hope the column is long running one.FloodOne said:
Do Sports Games Need a Story?
- Thread starter Robert Rath
- Start date
I've never really thought of it that way, but yes, in season mode at least, sports games do have honest to goodness emergent narrative, the kind usually reserved for 4X games and roguelikes. This is a perfect example of what the "games as art" types don't and in all likelihood are plugging their ears so they won't get, and that's that videogames are not a good place to go for scripted narratives. However, they're the /only/ place to go for gameplay, which, if you're still stuck on needing a story, can provide something that no other entertainment medium can provide in the form of emergent narratives. Personally I tend to worry more about winning the game than the little stories that unfold along the way, but that can depend on the game. FTL, for example, does a great job of getting you attached to your little red shirts and their "stories," which entirely consist of the things that you and the RNG did to them during the course of the game.
I am ever so glad that you weren't arguing for an actual story mode in sport games for that would be kind of silly. What's that? You'd like an example? I'm glad you asked imaginary person!
Fight Night Champion
It had an actual story mode. You played as Andre Bishop, a boxer who has bad stuff happen to him before he punches people in the ring to regain his lost glory. It was compelling and neat that a sports game had a story. However...
It was virtually pointless. For one, you played as someone who was already created. He was an inside boxer so I hope you enjoy that style of boxing or you're on your own. Secondly, the story was namely putting handicaps on you because...reasons that completely messed with the mechanics of the game. I ended up just quitting the final match because the conditions it put on you were completely off the walls stupid. It wasn't boxing, it was a boxing story that screwed my boxing match up.
Maybe a game could make it work but I like the story I naturally get out of playing the seasons. I choose a bottom feeder every time I start a new year of Madden with the sole purpose of turning those rag-tag losers into Superbowl Champions in a couple of years. MY story is one that won't be matched by some writers throwing crap at the board and seeing what sticks.
I love sport games
Fight Night Champion
It had an actual story mode. You played as Andre Bishop, a boxer who has bad stuff happen to him before he punches people in the ring to regain his lost glory. It was compelling and neat that a sports game had a story. However...
It was virtually pointless. For one, you played as someone who was already created. He was an inside boxer so I hope you enjoy that style of boxing or you're on your own. Secondly, the story was namely putting handicaps on you because...reasons that completely messed with the mechanics of the game. I ended up just quitting the final match because the conditions it put on you were completely off the walls stupid. It wasn't boxing, it was a boxing story that screwed my boxing match up.
Maybe a game could make it work but I like the story I naturally get out of playing the seasons. I choose a bottom feeder every time I start a new year of Madden with the sole purpose of turning those rag-tag losers into Superbowl Champions in a couple of years. MY story is one that won't be matched by some writers throwing crap at the board and seeing what sticks.
I love sport games
Sounds very similar to fighting games. At least sports games get a nice article about how people should focus more on the inherent stories and possible story-telling. It's pretty much exactly the same sort of open player driven narrative that has a subtle way of diffusing tension which isn't always wholly apparent on the surface.
If you had written the article about fighting games though... Let's not.
If you had written the article about fighting games though... Let's not.
I see what the article is saying.
FIFA, in particular, is a popular game in the UK (as one might expect). Whilst I don't have any interest in Association Football, as a gamer, I'll happily enjoy a game of FIFA with my mates.
This comes with it's own rules - for example, the FIFA apology rule.
For those unfamiliar with it (or for those who play by different variants of the rule), in our circle; if you lose a game of FIFA by 6 or more, you have to produce a handwritten apology for being so poor, and for disgracing the game of football with your awful play.
It's a silly little rule, but it's fun - it also keeps one sided games interesting (if you're 4-0 up then you're going to push for that apology letter, if you're 6-0 down then you'll do anything to claw one back).
As per the article - it all adds a bit of narrative.
Throw in organised Leagues, grudge matches, and that one game where you finally beat the dude who's awesome at the game, and what starts as just a dumb football game all of a sudden becomes quite a lot of fun.
As I say - I fucking hate football.
FIFA, in particular, is a popular game in the UK (as one might expect). Whilst I don't have any interest in Association Football, as a gamer, I'll happily enjoy a game of FIFA with my mates.
This comes with it's own rules - for example, the FIFA apology rule.
For those unfamiliar with it (or for those who play by different variants of the rule), in our circle; if you lose a game of FIFA by 6 or more, you have to produce a handwritten apology for being so poor, and for disgracing the game of football with your awful play.
It's a silly little rule, but it's fun - it also keeps one sided games interesting (if you're 4-0 up then you're going to push for that apology letter, if you're 6-0 down then you'll do anything to claw one back).
As per the article - it all adds a bit of narrative.
Throw in organised Leagues, grudge matches, and that one game where you finally beat the dude who's awesome at the game, and what starts as just a dumb football game all of a sudden becomes quite a lot of fun.
As I say - I fucking hate football.
Sport is reliant on 'the story'.
Maybe not one that is contrived and 'has' to be played out the same by every player of the game.
Somehow people need to develop their own stories, but the sports by themselves, without characters, personalities & backgrounds, would be hella boring.
I used to be able to drill out hundreds of games of football on Pro Evo, but that really just isn't my thing any more and it's largely because I see no achievement or reason to do it. It is all so predictable and plays out as normal. These games will definitely have to do something different to entice me back... or maybe I'm not the person they wish to market at and prefer the people who buy FIFA on year, every year.
Maybe not one that is contrived and 'has' to be played out the same by every player of the game.
Somehow people need to develop their own stories, but the sports by themselves, without characters, personalities & backgrounds, would be hella boring.
I used to be able to drill out hundreds of games of football on Pro Evo, but that really just isn't my thing any more and it's largely because I see no achievement or reason to do it. It is all so predictable and plays out as normal. These games will definitely have to do something different to entice me back... or maybe I'm not the person they wish to market at and prefer the people who buy FIFA on year, every year.
I love both sports and games, I follow and play both avidly, in my case its Rugby Union and I would kill, kill for a Football Manager type game for rugby, I would play that to death, even though I am not a big fan of the sport, I had a lot of fun with the only football manager I've ever played, it is fundamentally a solo experience however whereas stuff like FIFA is all about playing with friends, as I said, not a football fan, absolutely a fan of getting my arse kicked by my mates (I've never really got the hang of FIFA), I have a stack of printed apology letters that just need the names filled in.....
On a side note I was massively disappointed by the recent release of Rugby Challenge, EA Rugby 05 was actually a great game and I was hoping for an update but sadly not, terrible mechanics and bad licensing (always bugs me when they can't use the real players or strips).
On a side note I was massively disappointed by the recent release of Rugby Challenge, EA Rugby 05 was actually a great game and I was hoping for an update but sadly not, terrible mechanics and bad licensing (always bugs me when they can't use the real players or strips).
This basically just reconfirms my belief that sports games aren't for me. I'm not competitive or aggressive by nature and I can count the number of times I've been engaged by a sporting event on one hand. Just can't work up any emotional attachment to teams of people I don't know. Though I understand the reasons people do get invested in and identify with teams and the author does a good job of pointing them out.
Maybe if there was a a good way to integrate co-op into a sports video game... but even then I'd probably just be wondering why I wasn't playing a game where I'd be doing something more exciting and fantastical, just like I do in single player sports games.
As someone who's had a series of horrible roommates before though I can definitely feel for the author's friend, I've had a few roomies that a closet-peeing drunk would have been an improvement on to.
PS- I also think Boxing games might need to be looked at slightly differently. It's much easier to identify with and root for an individual than to do so for a giant team. At least I think so.
Also
Maybe if there was a a good way to integrate co-op into a sports video game... but even then I'd probably just be wondering why I wasn't playing a game where I'd be doing something more exciting and fantastical, just like I do in single player sports games.
As someone who's had a series of horrible roommates before though I can definitely feel for the author's friend, I've had a few roomies that a closet-peeing drunk would have been an improvement on to.
PS- I also think Boxing games might need to be looked at slightly differently. It's much easier to identify with and root for an individual than to do so for a giant team. At least I think so.
Also
Hah! That's great.Kinitawowi said:
Did you ever play a title called Pro Rugby Manager? By a group called Cyanide IIRC, who, based on what I could tell, were a small french outfit who also had a Cycling management game out.Shalok said:
The concept was good, and the execution wasn't completely awful. They didn't really have much by way of name/logo rights, but all things considered it wasn't a bad game. (That said, I've not played it in manys the year, so I may have some rose tinted spectacles here).
I'm sure you could get your hands on it pretty cheap these days. Worth a play if you're desperate for a Champ Mananger style game for Rugby.
I reckon that they've yet to make a decent Rugby game with 1 exception: Jonah Lomu Rugby.
If you're alright with League then Rugby League Live 2 was palatable, but I absolutely adore Rugby League and I'm not sure I'll ever be truly satisfied with an RL game that doesn't have the same kind of dedication as a FIFA, NHL or MADDEN game (which, for obvious reasons, will never happen).
What Rugby League Live 2 does well, which I think Rugby Union Games don't, is give actual options when running at the defence - it's not just a case of passing down the line and waiting for gaps to appear, you actually can create decent space with missed passes/etc.
Kicking seems to be something that no Rugby game has ever quite mastered either, which is a shame given the massive difference a good kicking game makes (to both codes, for different reasons).
That really depends on the available resources. Fighting games, quite frankly, aren't huge sellers these days. More and more they are being developed by small focused teams who bust their butts to create games that stand the rigorous test fighting games go through. If the choice is between spending X% of your budget on a fleshed out story mode instead of maybe a new character, new mode or new mechanic, then I would much rather see those resources spent on something other than a fleshed out story mode. In fact, what I would find to be a much better expenditure for every fighting game than a story mode is a proper tutorial and training system. Of course, if the studio is a huge one with lots of resources then I don't see anything wrong with a fleshed out story mode, but in any other case the story mode is the first thing that should get cut.balladbird said:
True, it's a case-by-case scenario, and depends a lot on 2-d vs 3-d (since the 3-d fighting games are more expensive to make, and generally have larger companies backing them)StriderShinryu said:
I do agree that proper tutorials would be a blessing, though. I think part of the reason why fighting games keep seeing diminishing returns is the fact that the competence wall is set so bloody high that only the hardcore can ever be any good at them. Sure, they give you a training mode, and a full character list, but then they do idiosyncratic things like arbitrarily change how they refer to buttons (calling them "a" "b" "c" and "d", rather than the button they correspond to on the controller) which make sense in the pragmatic sense -if you're going to multi-platform, better to keep a consistent terminology going- but ultimately serve to further isolate the uninitiated. not to mention the absurdly complex d-pad entry hieroglyphics. I played Tekken for almost a decade before I understood what the "star" symbol in some move sets meant.
Though in that regard, Blazblue is super awesome. They calmly and patiently explained everything I needed to know, and I walked away understanding 2-d fighters a whole hell of a lot better afterward.
In some old Madden game ('99?) I had spent 4 seasons of persistent league mode constructing my Tennessee Oilers team until they were strong enough to make a meaningful run at the playoffs. But I couldn't come close to those damn Patriots, and I knew it. (Drew Bledsoe... clearly the Pats would never have a stronger QB, amirite?) I was hoping other teams would take care of them, but no such luck. I loaded the AFC Championship Game determined to die with honour. Then, providence! The game was played in thick snow. In the slip-and-slide chaos that ensued, neither defense could tackle anybody and it came down to who had the ball last. I scored with 20 seconds left, then tackled their receiver in bounds to ice the game on my way to glory.
That still ranks among my most memorable gaming victories. I don't really play sports games anymore, I haven't for a long time, but "absence of story" is hardly the problem. I'd rather play something like LoL, which I see as being a sport designed specifically to the strengths and capabilities of online gaming, than a recreation of a real sport which is never going to be as fun as just getting out there with a ball.
Once again, Mr. Rath, your writing skills and breadth of knowledge are truly impressive. Good read.
That still ranks among my most memorable gaming victories. I don't really play sports games anymore, I haven't for a long time, but "absence of story" is hardly the problem. I'd rather play something like LoL, which I see as being a sport designed specifically to the strengths and capabilities of online gaming, than a recreation of a real sport which is never going to be as fun as just getting out there with a ball.
Once again, Mr. Rath, your writing skills and breadth of knowledge are truly impressive. Good read.
shiajun said:
cerebus23 said:
cerebus23 said:
Thanks so much for the kind words - I always appreciate hearing from readers. For what it's worth, I don't feel/i] under appreciated here at Escapist. I get great support from Escapist staff and comments like these (and ones that aren't compliments, but are clearly engaging with and enjoying the article) come in every week.albino boo said:
While it's true CI doesn't have a super-active comment thread, the discussion is always very intelligent, engaged and civil. It's extremely rare to find someone in the CI comments that clearly hasn't read the article or is commenting just because - they always have something to say. And despite tackling controversial subject matter on a regular basis, in the 14 months I've written CI I've never received a piece of hate mail and can't recall a reader ever insulting me. Even when readers disagree with each other they tend to do so respectfully. I can only remember one person being banned, and he wasn't a regular reader - he'd only dropped in because of a particularly divisive article. So while it's true the column gets fewer comments, I feel like it has the best quality commenting environment on the site.
Just my opinion though, I may be biased.
Robert Rath said:
I glad the staff are supportive and the Ci isn't the problem child because of the lack of comments. I think why there is a difference is because a lot of the other columns are personality lead and tend to generate meachen views. The other columnists are the pundits launching blasts of hate/love at things whereas your columns are more of the tightly crafted investigative piece. All of one type or the other would quickly become dull, so long live vartity.