Do we need more LGBTQ+ protagonists in video games?
- Thread starter Swarles
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Of course. To start off there's offshoots like the Queercore scene which is somewhat intertwined with the punk scene but has it's own unique identity with specific zines, art, and experimental film as well as large focus on a more "in your face" brand of activism. Honestly if we have games like Sunset Overdrive which advertises itself as a sort of punk rock shooter I don't think there's any reason not to incorporate at least a bit of that culture in it anyway.Asita said:
Or you could go at it stereotypically and incorporate things like camp, drag, disco and Madonna but it really probably wouldn't go over all that well.
Even just looking at history and incorporating some LGBT stuff even if it is just references.
I'm not trying to say I want all this stuff in games and I don't think all of it would work but what I am saying is that there is a culture surrounding it and even just using it in passing reference can give more depth. It also can't be entirely focused on these things though, you can't just have a gay character who's into kitschy things and say "Yeah, that's it, there's our character."
There are enough gay villains, in fact there's probably too many. It used to be that some form of "sexual deviancy" was enough to make a character a villain in a story. Think of Silence of the Lambs, JFK, or Pulp Fiction. None of those are bad movies and in fact two of them are some of the best movies ever made but they do fall into that stereotype. Even though it's tapered off a bit you still have a wealth of gay villains like in Skyfall, and that Tron movie that everyone forgot about. In video games, while it's not explicitly stated, you still get a lot of effeminate male villains and gruff male heroes. The upcoming Far Cry 4 looks like it's going to have a much more feminine bad guy, Saints Row: The Third, Skyward Sword, Street Fighter's Vega. Video game developers play into the male insecurity by having these characters act in a way they can find to be uncomfortable and that way is making them be stereotypically homosexual. I'm not saying any of these games are bad, in fact most of them are quite good, what I am saying is that the effeminate ambiguously gay villain is something that's already becoming a bit tiresome.VVThoughtBox said:
No. If they do not wish to have a story having one than that is that, push for more people who would for game development I suppose...though that won't really matter in studios where things have to go through the conservative rich men (big reason right there why you don't see a huge influx any time soon).
The United States is the world? News to me.Maxtro said:
I find that in most games, sexuality doesn't even come up. So in these scenarios, who knows, Samus could be a lesbian. When it does come up, sure, anything goes, but let's not go in the direction of insisting that sexually ambiguous characters gain a sexuality just because we need representation.
Well, Gears of War was kinda ridiculously homo-erotically "bro" in a lot of weird ways. Persona......and that's about it.....
Poison, from the Final Fight/Street Fighter universe has always been thought of as trans, but nothing has ever been stated for sures....
Poison, from the Final Fight/Street Fighter universe has always been thought of as trans, but nothing has ever been stated for sures....
Yep. We do indeed need more LGBTQ+ stories in video games. It's true that we need more stories of people of different races and ages and body types than thin-to-muscly white guys in their late teens-early 40s, and it's true that they're needed in lots of different media, but I think stories with LGBTQ+ protagonists are most needed in video games for political reasons that have been clearly explained in better ways than I will today.
Now, I have no personal interest in playing an LGBTQ+ character in a video game. That's not to say it's something I'd actively avoid, yet if every single game I ever played starred a white heterosexual male protagonist I'd be fine with it. But I think that restricting peoples' ability to tell specific stories, deal with specific issues, or represent certain people in deference to others for normative reasons or imagined economic reasons is an atrocious policy that harms creativity in a broad senses, psychologically threatens members of historically oppressed groups, and encourages poor behavior in the future. And yes, LGBTQ+ groups have received the worst treatment in this regard as far as video games go. As far as I can tell, the best remedy for this situation is to make as many LGBTQ+ protagonists as possible in as high of profile games as possible until this sad state of affairs is remedied.
To clarify: I don't just mean that we need a game where the main character might be gay, for example. I mean that we need games in which the protagonist is gay no matter what the player decides to do.
Now, I have no personal interest in playing an LGBTQ+ character in a video game. That's not to say it's something I'd actively avoid, yet if every single game I ever played starred a white heterosexual male protagonist I'd be fine with it. But I think that restricting peoples' ability to tell specific stories, deal with specific issues, or represent certain people in deference to others for normative reasons or imagined economic reasons is an atrocious policy that harms creativity in a broad senses, psychologically threatens members of historically oppressed groups, and encourages poor behavior in the future. And yes, LGBTQ+ groups have received the worst treatment in this regard as far as video games go. As far as I can tell, the best remedy for this situation is to make as many LGBTQ+ protagonists as possible in as high of profile games as possible until this sad state of affairs is remedied.
To clarify: I don't just mean that we need a game where the main character might be gay, for example. I mean that we need games in which the protagonist is gay no matter what the player decides to do.
@SwarlesVVThoughtBox said:
There are enough gay villains, in fact there's probably too many. It used to be that some form of "sexual deviancy" was enough to make a character a villain in a story. Think of Silence of the Lambs, JFK, or Pulp Fiction. None of those are bad movies and in fact two of them are some of the best movies ever made but they do fall into that stereotype. Even though it's tapered off a bit you still have a wealth of gay villains like in Skyfall, and that Tron movie that everyone forgot about. In video games, while it's not explicitly stated, you still get a lot of effeminate male villains and gruff male heroes. The upcoming Far Cry 4 looks like it's going to have a much more feminine bad guy, Saints Row: The Third, Skyward Sword, Street Fighter's Vega. Video game developers play into the male insecurity by having these characters act in a way they can find to be uncomfortable and that way is making them be stereotypically homosexual. I'm not saying any of these games are bad, in fact most of them are quite good, what I am saying is that the effeminate ambiguously gay villain is something that's already becoming a bit tiresome.[/quote]
But if people want more LGBT characters in fiction, then they're going to have to be comfortable with the LGBT character in question playing more than just the role of the hero. We would need complex LGBT side characters, mentors, authority figures, and for better or worse, the role of the villain. I don't think that there's much demand for a squeaky clean gay character in video games, I'd argue that would want something resembling a character arc from the LGBT character.
Edit: I wish there was an easier way to quote people. I was trying to address Swarles.
No, what we NEED are games with solid storytelling and controller breaking gameplay that challenges the player to the limits of their abilities. I don't care if my character is green, gay, female, 2 headed, or likes to fondle small rodents the wrong way. If introducing any of these elements makes the gameplay more interesting, then go ahead. Don't introduce pointless inclusionary political correctness into games "just for the sake of it". First and foremost, we're playing games people. If your sexuality is so important to you, then GO HAVE SEX. Stop foistering it off into every form of entertainment medium and crying foul just because Harry Potter and Ron Weasley never had that steamy moment of which you'd dreamed.
Cue the flaming.
Cue the flaming.
i didnt say naoto was gay, but she could fit within LGBTQ definition since hes a transvestiteCruickshank said:
the idea that kanji was gay was never really resolved but i think it was heavily implied he was bisexual
No. How many games even have the protagonist even mention their sexual orientation? No Mass Effect and the like don't count because you choose it. The Last of Us or whatever it was did, and that's all I can think of other then that really dumb one, it was a movie about a sad lesbian or something but everyone made it out to be an amazing game.
I'd rather have a game focus on an interesting story rather then who the character likes to bone. I mean at best such an addition would be a footnote.
"Captain, the bad guys are doing things!"
"Holy shit balls! what are they doing?"
"I don't know, but I'm a transsexual."
Seriously? Is that what you want? That's how it's gonna end up if you keep asking for crap like this. If a developer feels like doing it because it's part of an interesting story then cool! If it's forced in because people kept bitching then it's not cool, and will probably cause more bitching and they won't try it again.
I'd rather have a game focus on an interesting story rather then who the character likes to bone. I mean at best such an addition would be a footnote.
"Captain, the bad guys are doing things!"
"Holy shit balls! what are they doing?"
"I don't know, but I'm a transsexual."
Seriously? Is that what you want? That's how it's gonna end up if you keep asking for crap like this. If a developer feels like doing it because it's part of an interesting story then cool! If it's forced in because people kept bitching then it's not cool, and will probably cause more bitching and they won't try it again.
I don't know why people get all stuck on "Well if they write them well" crap. Like somehow if the protagonist is gay, whole story has to revolve around that.
Like a game can't just be the same murder-everyone-everything-nearby button fest and the main character has an off-mention of their boyfriend or how much they like man butt. Like other straight protagonist do.
Like any game with LGBTQ has to be thoughtful paced stuff. *cough*borderlands2*cough*
I'm flattered we apparently warrant a pedestal to stay out of arms reach, but we're not that special. Just throw us in with the usual cover shooter bull crap.
Like a game can't just be the same murder-everyone-everything-nearby button fest and the main character has an off-mention of their boyfriend or how much they like man butt. Like other straight protagonist do.
Like any game with LGBTQ has to be thoughtful paced stuff. *cough*borderlands2*cough*
I'm flattered we apparently warrant a pedestal to stay out of arms reach, but we're not that special. Just throw us in with the usual cover shooter bull crap.
Its actually very odd to see these questions asked. Mainly because it makes it rather evident how little people actually grasp about the concept of creating a character. Let me ask you all this question, answer it for yourself, no need to respond to it here.
Has your Sexuality or Gender ever shaped you as a human being?
And dont give me that cop-out on how people treat you cause of X, it doesnt affect the question. You are shaped by decisions you make, experiences you gather over the years and talents you learn, even if you might be predisposed to some of them. A character is not defined by their gender, or their sexuality, it is ONE aspect about them, but it does not define them, it does not sum them up.
You cant sum up another person with neat little definitions, we are more complex than that. Even if you could, just for the sake of the argument here, these definitions would be so many that you would run out of space on a single page to describe ONE person, let alone a group of them. What we "need" is complex and interesting characters, what gender they are, what haircolor they have, what skincolor they have or what their sexuality are comes last, because ultimately these are arbitrary and random.
You did not choose your haircolor, skincolor, ethnicity, nation of birth, parents, social class, sexuality or gender. These "definitions" just happen and they do not define who you are or who you can be. So no, we dont need LGBTQ Characters, or female characters, or blacks, or hispanics or whatever for the sake of inclusiveness. It's a hollow gesture at best, because once you do that, these characters become token, created to be "representative", so we can include everyone even if these characters are merely a cardboard cutout.
If we get good, complex character who just happen to be gay or transgendered or black? Well, more power to them, go right ahead. But dont include them for the sake of checking off another box on the list, because you do nobody any favours.
Has your Sexuality or Gender ever shaped you as a human being?
And dont give me that cop-out on how people treat you cause of X, it doesnt affect the question. You are shaped by decisions you make, experiences you gather over the years and talents you learn, even if you might be predisposed to some of them. A character is not defined by their gender, or their sexuality, it is ONE aspect about them, but it does not define them, it does not sum them up.
You cant sum up another person with neat little definitions, we are more complex than that. Even if you could, just for the sake of the argument here, these definitions would be so many that you would run out of space on a single page to describe ONE person, let alone a group of them. What we "need" is complex and interesting characters, what gender they are, what haircolor they have, what skincolor they have or what their sexuality are comes last, because ultimately these are arbitrary and random.
You did not choose your haircolor, skincolor, ethnicity, nation of birth, parents, social class, sexuality or gender. These "definitions" just happen and they do not define who you are or who you can be. So no, we dont need LGBTQ Characters, or female characters, or blacks, or hispanics or whatever for the sake of inclusiveness. It's a hollow gesture at best, because once you do that, these characters become token, created to be "representative", so we can include everyone even if these characters are merely a cardboard cutout.
If we get good, complex character who just happen to be gay or transgendered or black? Well, more power to them, go right ahead. But dont include them for the sake of checking off another box on the list, because you do nobody any favours.
I'd definitely like to see games include a more demographically representative sample of protagonists. I absolutely do not want to see game makers crowbaring characters in to fulfill arbitrary diversity requirements. Basically, I want good games and properly representative games, in that order, preferably both.
It was "questioning" last I knew, but the tumblr hypersensitive term may have changed since I last checked.Gankytim said:
Since heterosexuality is the majority norm, people usually assume heterosexuality unless stated otherwise, so if they just don't mention the character's sexuality at all, they're usually assumed to either be heterosexual, or their sexuality makes no difference. If the game goes out of its way to point out that someone is LGBTQetc and then doesn't do anything with it, it feels awkward and forced. Imagine if JK Rowling had said Dumbledore was gay sometime around book 5 rather than after book 7 had come out. It would have just looked like pandering because it added no depth or meaning to what had already taken place. It made sense when you considered his relationship with Grindelwald and all that, so it was worth saying, but only because it was a previously unconfirmed character aspect that affected his back story significantly.Nimcha said:
Basically, if it doesn't work as character development, plot points, or universe building, there's really no point in going out of your way to say it. While there's no reason for, for example, Samus to be a lesbian, there's also no reason for her not to be a lesbian. It's fine to pan over a family photograph in the background showing her with her arm around her wife and their adopted kids, sort of like what Frozen did with Oaken, but if the game had straight up spelled it out as expository dialogue, it wouldnt've made much sense.
Was she? I don't remember it ever coming up, and I'm pretty sure any mention by devs was just yet more foot-in-mouth that had nothing to do with the actual product, like "wanting to protect her" as though she was ever not more badass than any of us on this thread.erttheking said:
Why do people keep adding frickin letters to that stupid acronym? Jesus. It's like 25 letters long now. Stop it!
As for the topic, I think writers should write what they want to write without being crucified for not mentioning some obscure made up term that a special snowflake came up with to gain Tumblr or Twitter follows. Rule number 1 of writing is to write what you know. People would be just as offended if a straight white male tried to write about a black character in the inner city.
So what we need is not more LGBTQLMAOWTFBBQ characters, but more writers of all sorts to portray them. Why the fuck are we concerned about the state of fiction and its diversity when REAL people in the REAL world are not being allowed to create our fiction?
As for the topic, I think writers should write what they want to write without being crucified for not mentioning some obscure made up term that a special snowflake came up with to gain Tumblr or Twitter follows. Rule number 1 of writing is to write what you know. People would be just as offended if a straight white male tried to write about a black character in the inner city.
So what we need is not more LGBTQLMAOWTFBBQ characters, but more writers of all sorts to portray them. Why the fuck are we concerned about the state of fiction and its diversity when REAL people in the REAL world are not being allowed to create our fiction?
Well it's not like people can't do multiple problems.
If we couldn't, then everything else would still be on hold under all those starving sick children.