Do we need more LGBTQ+ protagonists in video games?

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Supdupadog

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Riotguards said:
it would be nice but forcing developers to add more LGBTQ won't help anyone, its better to have a character who stays perfectly within his character than to suddenly change his views

the same way adding more female token characters won't help either
I dunno man, since apparently publishers already force devs to keep the grizzled white dudes up front and center, it might not be a big difference.

And not including people out of fear of tokenism is bull crap. One latino person is still more diverse than zero latino people. And if we like the character, no one is going to call it tokenism at all.
 

Elementary - Dear Watson

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I don't think I have ever paid any attention to any romantic plot in a story in a game ever... I played all my favourite JRPGs as a kid, and found that stuff boring, but now I am an adult I find everyone elses relationships fucking boring!

I don't understand how my gaming needs more of this... I don't really get at all how it even remotely matters. I just like to fight monsters or bad guys and leave awkward social interactions to real life!
 

2xDouble

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To snarkily answer the question: no, we don't need more "other" protagonists in video games. What we need is more "alphabet soup" people to create and to write them... or to stop slapping labels on people altogether, but that's never going to happen - until we become The Borg, anyway.

The problem is, in most scenarios (especially video game scenarios), sexuality is completely irrelevant to the action at hand. Therefore, the character's sexuality/sexual identity is either unsatisfactory fluff detail or outside of the actual game, breaking the flow of action. There are examples of this done well - or at least, realistically - but doing so outside of one's personal experience is next to impossible.
 

Zeckt

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We could do with a transgender character that's not comic relief or there for attention trying to sell us on an opinion. Would be especially nice if they just acted like normal but that would be too much to ask for.
 

Ninjamedic

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It would be nice to see more variety but I think all of these OPs about "we need more X" ignore that it's not a problem in of itself[footnote]To clarify, I mean that the lack of specific minorities isn't because of racism/sexism/homophobia[/footnote], but rather a symptom of far greater problems in the industry.

Then again, that's always the problem with these one issue "wars", people just see "I'm right and you're wrong" without looking at the bigger picture.


Phasmal said:
The often-parroted `But x (sexuality/gender/race) shouldn't matter!`- tends to fall flat in that if it did not matter then there would be no reason NOT to include more of x. So yes.
Colour Scientist said:
I imagine this thread will descend into people complaining about "tokenism" though, it always happens when people want a character that isn't the default.
For what it's worth, this thread so far has been agreeing with you, and even those that make the "tokenism" point are saying that writing in general should be improved first before tackling these sort of issues in a constructive manner.
 

Kingjackl

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Diversity is always good. There are so few games out there that have those types of characters, especially discounting the ones where it's just an optional ego-insert thing ala Bioware games or Saints Row.

Are there any games out there with transgendered protagonists? I honestly can't think of any at the moment. It would be cool if there were, since it's a perspective we see even less of than straight female protagonists.
 

Tono Makt

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Swarles said:
Do we need more LGBTQ+ protagonists in video games?
...
I'm not saying I dislike games with heterosexual protagonists, I mean if I did what would I have to play. I also understand why there are not very many games with protagonists that are explicitly LGBTQ+, video games want to appeal to the core demographic of heterosexual 16-30 year old men and I get that. I just want a little more breaking of the mould.

Anyway, enough of me talking, I want to know the users' opinions on the matter.
Do we need more LGBTQ+ protagonists in video games? It's the wrong question to ask. We don't "need" anything in video games beyond video games being interactive. (Without that interactive quality, they stop being video games and become something else.) So we don't "need" LGBTQ+ protagonists, or female protagonists, or non-white protagonists, or white male protagonists, or protagonists at all. Tetris, Bejeweled and Bubble Bobble type games do gangbusters without having a protagonist at all.

A better question would be "Would video games BENEFIT from having more diverse protagonists?". To me, the answer is a rousing "HELL YES!". Particularly in games with a more role playing aspect to them. (I am hoping that the next series of Mass Effect games have Femshep as their default, and they have the main storyline more suited for a female protagonist than a male protagonist. If they do that, I will likely buy it on launch day even though I'm one of those guys who will go to the bitter end saying that the ending of ME3 devalued the entire series, but that's a threadjack for a different thread) I would love to play a game where the protagonist is a gay male character, even though I'm straight, tried and tested. I would love to play as a woman, straight or gay. I would love to play as an African American, Latino or other minority in a game set in somewhere like America.

I would love to be able to have the opportunity to actually experience - however fake and scripted it may be - an experience that goes on daily for millions of people but which I can never have. Sure, I can play a gay Shepard in Mass Effect (particularly 3), but his being gay has no impact on anything. I hear all the time how difficult it is to be gay in today's society and while I completely and totally accept that as fact, I can't understand it. I can't experience it. There is always going to be a disconnect between myself and the gay community because I'm just not gay and just like how they can't force themselves to be straight, I can't force myself to be gay. So being able to step into the shoes of an interactive character in a video game lets me take a few steps in their direction. I think that's something video games should be striving for.

This is where video games can be so much more effective than other forms of entertainment - movies and TV are passive and linearly scripted. Books are linearly scripted and fairly passive, but they do evoke more thought and imagination than movies and TV. Plays are like movies and TV, only with a bit more of a social aspect as you can't really watch them without being in the audience. (otherwise you're pretty much just watching a special form of TV or movie) But video games give you the ability to choose where things will go. To a very small degree, yes, but far more than with TV , movies or books. You can pick the gist of Shepards speech in ME2, though not the actual words. You can't pick the gist of Tyrion's speech during the battle of Blackwater in either the book or the TV show. You can't choose who Raleigh's partner will be for the Gypsy Danger in Pacific Rim, nor can you make Aragon choose to not take the Paths of the Dead in Lord of the Rings and try to fight Sauron's armies without the Dead. But these are the kinds of choices you can make in video games.

Eventually video games will get there. Quite soon, I would say - we might already be at the tipping point. Independent games can get a great deal of exposure on Steam, so an indy game with a gay protagonist, if done well, can make a great deal of money, showing the larger publishers and development companies that it's not a bad investment. It's not a matter of "If" anymore - it's a matter of "When". It might take someone deciding to absorb a loss for a video game and spend a few million dollars simply making a game with a gay protagonist, then putting the game out there for judgement. Or someone doing the same thing with a female protagonist. Release a game to change the market instead of releasing a game to simply make money.

captcha: Strike a match. Ha. I wonder if the Escapist Captcha could pass the Turing test...
 

Robert Marrs

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No we don't need more. More COULD be a good thing so long as its the result of creativity and not shoehorning to avoid being demonized by SJWs. Its going to be hard for me to take games seriously in 5 years when every developer has to make sure the fill all the boxes on their equality checklist.
 

Adeptus Aspartem

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Sigmund Av Volsung said:
Correction: We need well-written and interesting LGBTQ protagonists.

As countless others have said before me, just crow-barring in an LGBTQ character is just cheap and pointless. All it would serve to do is to check off a list of pre-requisites.

What matters is how much of a character a protagonist is first. If they're LGBTQ, then it's a bonus.
I'd say we just need more interessting characters in general. Even the socio-norm straight white female/male protagonists are usually full of stereotypes and movietropes it's not even funny anymore.

Imo the writing in general is so "meh" that i'm currently not worried about the representation of a certain group than rather of good games/characters in general.
 

elvor0

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NuclearKangaroo said:
erttheking said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
erttheking said:
The word "More" implies that there were some to begin with and I have a hard time thinking of any LGBT protagonists in games. Trevor is the only one I can think of at the moment.
the main character from gone home, kanji tatsumi and nNaoto shirogane from persona 4, ellie from the last of us, they are few but they are not non-existant
Wait, how is Naoto LGBT? She's just a crossdresser, that's not exactly LGBT. And Kanji isn't a protagonist.

Fair enough with Ellie though.
the T in "LGBTQ" doesnt involve trasvestite as well as transexual people?
I'm guessing it's because a transvestite is different from a transexual(pre or post op) in that a transvestite wears the opposite gender clothes because they like them as clothes, transexual people wear them because they want to /be/ the opposite sex. The prior has no doubts or sexual "oddities", for want of a better word, because that sounds like I think there's something wrong with non straight people.

So most pre op transexuals are also transvestites but not all transvestites are transexuals.

Frankly the LGBTQ (Q being a brand new one to me, because in Britian it's old lady slang for "Gay", which is of course, reduntant) acronymn could do with some pruning. As in changing Lesbian and Gay to "Homosexual" more letters are going to be added and LGBTQ+ sounds like some gluttonous sandwitch.

Also, what the fuck is the Plus for? I mean what other sexualities are there, Queer now encompases all of them left out by the original acronymn going by the wikipedia definition of it being re-appropriated by the LGBTQ+ with side of fries and a strawberry milkshake folks.
 

DrOswald

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Yes there should be more.

But this is a particularly tricky one because sexuality and gender identity is not something you can see just by looking at a person (unless the developer goes for offensive stereotypes.) This isn't like including a woman or a black man. Everyone can see it is a woman or a black dude. With a LGBTQ character you have to specifically go out of your way to show that this character is LGBTQ.

It's like the Dumbledore thing. Dumbledore is gay. We know because J. K. Rowling made a point of specifically making it known after the books had concluded. But you would never know from reading the books. It never came up and in most games for most characters it never will come up. So to make the character LGBTQ you have to find a way to work it in appropriate or not.

I mean, is Dr Shen (XCom) gay or strait? Does it matter in any way? Is it even appropriate to bring it up?

So sexuality/gender identity is only really brought up when it is appropriate. And that is in a lot of games, to be sure. Nathan Drake makes out with women, most JRPG's have a love interest, Kratos was married with children, etc. So it could be brought up in games like these where mentioning sexuality is important.

But that is intimidating to do. Even setting aside the fact that most game developers are heterosexual and would therefore be depicting something they have no experience in it is still intimidating. LGBTQ characters are closely scrutinized specifically because there are so few of them. No one cares if you are bad at writing dude hooking up with chick. But people will complain if you are bad at writing dude hooking up with dude.

Anyway, those are a couple of the reasons why I think we see so few LGBTQ characters in games.
 

Dragonbums

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Nobody needs more of anything in terms of protagonists. However I just like how people flip their shit that their mold of boring, white dude, with brown hair and a stubble is broken by a woman.

I also love the argument of "shoehorned" because it means that white people are a default that can be in any situation, anywhere, at any time for any reason, but everyone else, whether they be a woman, a black person, a spanish person, or asian person needs explicit reason to not only exist- but be there. "Simply because" I suppose is only an excuse white characters can have. Everyone else better write a two paragraph essay for why they need to be there.

I personally would like to see protags of all kinds. Fuck, a game has me interested if the white dude is fucking blonde for shit's sake. That's how uninteresting protagonists in videogames are today.
 

kasperbbs

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Need? Nope. Want? Well i don't, but i suppose some people might. But does it really matter? Only games that could make some use of it are rpg's and at least Bioware already has some options in their games and perhaps Bethesda too(never cared to find out). Actually i don't care, just give me a game thats fun to play.
 

A-D.

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MarsAtlas said:
Snip for length
Again, no i didnt answer my own question, because cultural expectations are still not something that IS defined as such and can be no other way. Your parents MIGHT expect you to do X, or people in your school might expect you to do X, that doesnt mean you have to do it. Nor would you really be treated less because you choose not to go with the flow.

Secondly, "insulted for being a girl". Okay how's that different from being insulted for being a boy? Which was the point i was making. How is it different from being insulted for having red hair? Green eyes? A crooked nose? Being "ugly"? Being "fat"? If a boy insults a girl in the way of "Ewww, girls are icky, go away", is that sexism? No it isnt and our culture seems to thrive on this stupid hyperbole to make everything about some Ism. Sexism, Racism, Ableism, and all the other shit tumblr seems to throw a hissyfit over. Wanna know how to stop racism? Stop making race an issue. Sexism? Stop treating sex differently. Every anti-racist or anti-sexist person is doing nothing more than keep the topic alive, keep this "evil thing" going. We cant move on, we cant move past it because everything now is racism, or sexism or whatever-ism.

Women dont need to be coddled, or put on some pedestal where they are free from any criticism. They arent exempt from being treated just like everyone else on account of their "feelings". You have a right to be offended by something, you dont have a right to tell the offender to stop talking.

But lets get to the game part, yes games can be about everything. So why do they NEED to imitate reality? What if LA Noire was set in a fictional universe where racial tensions werent a thing? Because in our past there was that problem? Imagine a world, just for a second, where racism was never a thing. Where slavery was never a thing, or sexism, or anything was made an issue of. Now take this world and set it in our past where all these things never happened. A game can do that, its called alternate history, where things may have gone alot differently than what actually happened in our time. We cant just adjust the future in Sci-Fi settings, we can also look back and explore what they world may have been like had certain issues never existed, how they came to that point, why it diverged and how this might influence the future.

Also using Sims and SimCity as an example of how you wish the world was..not exactly a good comparison. Especially since you then proclaim that you dont have to critically think about it, you absolve the players of these games of having to think about issues. Why do you imply that they dont, or wouldnt? And how are those games any different from a game which alters history, either past, present or future to suit the theme it sets out to explore. You earlier used Spec Ops as an example of a subversion. How is that a Subversion? Its Full Metal Jacket in Game-form. Its Platoon. Its an anti-war game, it simply highlights just how terrible war is, how even a good man can make terrible choices and how all these choices eventually affect him psychologically. The only subversion here was that it decided to show what War would really be like, rather than the Hollywood-style that Call of Duty and consorts offer. If anyone ever thought war was glorious, they are stupid to begin with.

Nerdmode: The Buildings of Coruscant reach up to the Stratosphere, literally. The buildings are so tall that you cant even see the ground, its a city spanning the entire planet, layer upon layer. So yes you can fall several thousand feet down without hitting the ground. Take the largest building in the world, remember its height, now imagine how often you'd have to stack that building on top of itself to reach our planets Stratosphere. Now ask yourself if gravity was less the further away from the planet you got (it is, to a small degree). Anakin surviving the fall is essentially explained by him being a Jedi, its a cop-out sure, but its as much of a cop-out as explaining that the Wizard is throwing the fireballs. Also there is no law that states every universe, fantasy or otherwise has to adhere to our laws of physics. They can literally run on their own laws because thats part of that universe, its fiction. Its not real.

You are implying it has to follow our laws, our history. It doesnt. Go back far enough and change something in history. Now think how that change could affect the next hundred, or thousand years. What if the colonial powers never discovered America? What if they never took slaves? How would the world be different because of it? Its a small change, but everything changes from that point forward. I will admit its shoddily done if a game doesnt set up the explanation that X didnt happen somewhere in the plot, hence allowing this fictional world to be different, but the implication of it having happened is still there.

Again, you dont get to pick and choose what is true and what isnt. What is the "norm" is not something you get to decide based on flimsy evidence of, statistically speaking, very small sample sizes. If one woman was raped in your neighborhood, right now, does that mean your neighborhood has a rape-epidemic? Or was it one isolated case which should be dealt with? The further we broaden the scope of an issue, the less real it gets because it is literally driven ad absurdum. It becomes, as you point out, parody.

Also, i must have missed where Walking Dead was about racism, rather than surviving the zombie apocalypse. It is human nature to distrust people you dont know, precisely because you dont know them. We have evolved several instincts based around this..suspicion of anything foreign, an innate Xenophobia if you will. You cant teach that out of people, you simply cant. At least not quickly, it takes time, maybe thousands of years for us to literally evolve past those instincts. Making progress to help that along is fine, but the more you demand results now, as if you had a magic wand in your pocket that could fix everything is not the right way to go about it because all you do is piss people off by implying they are racist, or sexist, or whatever-ist on some fundamental level when they arent. If you called me a Sexist, or a Racist, i would punch you in the face, because i will not stand idle to being told who i am by someone who does not know me, who has never interacted with me.

Now not saying you did, but thats the general idea of it, if you keep telling men that they are sexist..you arent doing yourself any favours. Telling white people they are racist, again not helping. They might be racist or sexist, but if you implicate everyone to be because "culture" or "society", you assign blame and then shift it onto something we cant change overnight. So you are left with blaming men for being sexist (all of them), or white people for being racist (all of them), because society and culture are these faceless masses, its like blaming the monster under your bed for stealing the cookies that you ate. Sexism and Racism go every way, blacks can be just as racist as any white slave-owner from the 16th century. Women can be just as sexist towards men as some men can be sexist towards women.

The moment you start assigning blame unilaterally to everyone in some group, you simply alienate them. You know, xenophobia.
 

rgrekejin

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No, not really, for the simple reason that in the vast majority of games, the sexuality of the protagonist is completely irrelevant. It literally never comes up.

I mean, really, the default assumption here seems to be that unless we're specifically told that a character is LGBT, they must not be. But why are you assuming that? It is, to use the popular term, heteronormative thinking.

It's not that almost all characters are straight, it's that we have literally no data on most game characters one way or the other, because their sexuality is completely unimportant. Maybe Chris Redfield is gay. Maybe some of the many iterations of Link have been transexual. Perhaps Ezio is bisexual (in fact, I'd be kind of shocked it he wasn't). We don't know one way or the other, and, as the saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So it's kind of misleading to point out how few LGBT characters there are in games when the simple fact is that characters in games with any sort of a defined sexuality at all are pretty rare to begin with.

EDIT: Just to be clear - I think the absence of sexuality from most games is a GOOD THING. In most games it wouldn't serve any purpose, and randomly injecting it in to games for its own sake is a non-sequitur at best.
 

TheMadDoctorsCat

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The_Kodu said:
I think that kind of press is your answer.

People arguing for inclusivity because "I feel weird playing some-one not of my own gender".
Now this is what I was arguing against in another thread. It's a bugbear of mine. Not a "legendary" one, but certainly getting up to "dire".

The argument against having homogenous protagonists has NOTHING to do with "representation" or who players can "empathise" with. As a guy, I've been able to empathise with plenty of fictional female characters. Not a problem.

My step-niece has enjoyed many games with male protagonists, including the last "Assassin's Creed" game. I don't think she'd be particularly happy at the suggestion that the new "Assassin's Creed" game isn't for her because it only features male protagonists. I haven't had a chance to ask her about it but I'm guessing she'd find the assumption that she *couldn't* enjoy a game because of the sex of its protagonist to be pretty damn condescending.

The lack of variety in game protagonists is not, in and of itself, a problem. It's a symptom of a problem. And that problem is a lack of variety in game DEVELOPERS. (Less of one, I have to say, than it used to be.) As long as games are made for a narrow group of people by people who are members of that group themselves, we won't see a proper expansion of the role of gaming in wider society. And we need that expansion.

More variety in devs = more variety in games = more variety in gamers. And since most devs start out as gamers, that means even more variety in devs as a result. That's what's needed if you really want to see gaming taken in new directions, or rather reaching its fullest potential. To a certain extent I think it's already happening. But I'd like to see even more evidence of it.
 

marioandsonic

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chadachada123 said:
Yeah, I suppose we do. Only 14 year old Call of Duty players would be the type to complain about it.

Seriously, who the fuck cares. Not the majority of gamers (excluding immature dudebros that probably only play WoW or CoD and little else, like the flipside SJW army that ignores the numerous indie games that feature well-written female or gay protagonists just because they aren't AAA games).
I just wanted to say that I don't know many "dudebros" that play World of Warcraft. They'd probably say that's too nerdy for them.

As far as the OP goes, I would say we don't NEED any, but having more would still be a good thing. Of course, I don't want to have it so every games has a gay character just for the sake of having one. I also think it's a bit counter-intuitive to try and force game creators to shoehorn them in.
 

Supdupadog

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TheMadDoctorsCat said:
The lack of variety in game protagonists is not, in and of itself, a problem. It's a symptom of a problem. And that problem is a lack of variety in game DEVELOPERS. (Less of one, I have to say, than it used to be.) As long as games are made for a narrow group of people by people who are members of that group themselves, we won't see a proper expansion of the role of gaming in wider society. And we need that expansion.
I don't quite buy this line of thinking.

For one, it seems for many a game, the publisher was the one being very adamant on which kind of character needed to be in the game and front and center. Diversity in devs is nice, but it seems like we also very much need a diversity in publisher thinking or else every video game out of norm still has to fight tooth and nail to get things put in.

And publishers are very rarely creative types. They are money managers, and they are more interested in market trends.

And second, I don't like this idea that the only way for more diverse characters is to have diverse people behind them. Like the only way a female protagonist gets written is if a girl wrote her apparently. Or that the creative director has to be black to get a black protagonist.

I think we can ask more of the creative types. If they can create characters who are dragons, elves, aliens, anthropomorphic turtles, we can ask for female or even queer characters.
 

Pink Gregory

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We need more characters, not a checklist.
rgrekejin said:
No, not really, for the simple reason that in the vast majority of games, the sexuality of the protagonist is completely irrelevant. It literally never comes up.

EDIT: Just to be clear - I think the absence of sexuality from most games is a GOOD THING. In most games it wouldn't serve any purpose, and randomly injecting it in to games for it's own sake is a non-sequitur at best.
I'm surprised that this point isn't made more frequently in these discussions.

It serves a purpose if a substantial portion of the game is about getting to know people intimately for whatever reason; I don't think RPGs really do this well, but something a bit like yer Tex Murphys, yer detective adventure games, yer visual novels even.

Personally, when I'm presented with such a character, it's probably the last thing that I think about. Sexuality is the last thing I'm going to be concerned about when I've got things to be doing, unless the nature of their sexuality is of import to what I'm doing.