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oktalist

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Trippy Turtle said:
"Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat."
- Hillary Clinton.
I believe the true "Victims" of war are the civilians that die when they have no part in the war. What are your opinions on this quote?
I think you are right, but I also think that Mrs Clinton's quote might have made more sense in context, like if she had been speaking to a gathering of war widows. She's a politician, so she just says what she thinks her audience will want to hear. It would indeed be a strange thing to say apropos of nothing.

EDIT:
febel said:
Annoying quotes...annoying quotes never change(s).
Ron Perlman said that.
"A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire
 

Madara XIII

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Dumbfish1 said:
Everyone's a victim, whether they sign up to it out of a misguided sense of patriotism or they're caught in the crossfire.
This basically. We all suffer when it comes to war. Death is a cruel mistress who does not discriminate.
 

Fbuh

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Iconsting said:
Implying of course that men and only men serve in combat. Implying that women have never once died in wars. Implying that anyone who loses a brother, friend, father, or son to a war is automatically a woman.

Fuck Hillary and her bullshit. If she runs, I'll vote Republican.
But that's how we get in a fucked up mess in the first place. We don't like who's on one side, so we just vote for the other. Unfortunately, we have a system in which one must vote for the lesser of two evils, and it's nothing more than a self-perpetuating chaos machine.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the question at hand...

I do agree that it is bullshit, as you can't point to any one individual or group of people and say "They are the victims" or "It is their fault". Just look at Germany after WWI. All the blame was shifted to them, even though it wasn't necessarily their fault for everything that happened. Then all of those negative feelings of blame and guilt builf up for twenty years until another world war happens.
 

Madara XIII

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Sober Thal said:
Where did you find that quote??

If it's true, it's rather sexist, and I do not agree with it. Everyone is a victim. Except war profiteers.
Very sexist indeed. Everyone is a victim in war. Death is harsh and cruel and does not discriminate in any manner what so ever.

[HEADING=2]What do you have to say to Hillary, Noob?


The Noob abides[/HEADING]
 

Booze Zombie

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
"Its just your opinion" does not apply to anything. This woman is fucking stupid. Fact.

Really, what I got out of that post was "If someone says something backward and you posses more than the 2 brain cells necessary to deduce that it is wrong, hurr durr".
Actually, I was trying to say "she's saying this really stupid stuff to further a cause", there's a reason she's saying it... even if it is stupid. On the off chance you think I do support her, I don't.
 

Korolev

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Jul 4, 2008
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The primary sufferer of any war has been humans. Full stop.

Throughout history, it was usually the military fighters who suffered the most during war, since a lot of conflicts took place on fields far away from cities. Even when cities were sacked, it was relatively rare for the victor to totally destroy the city - that was often only done if there was a lot of bad blood between combatants (Like Roman and Carthage). In the majority of wars until WWII, military deaths almost always outweighed civilian deaths. Again, there were exceptions to this rule: Some Chinese Civil Wars inflicted immense suffering on the civilians due to disruptions in the food supply. But by and large, most of the people who died due to war were the soldiers. It was only after WWII, that it became common for large amounts of civilians on both sides to potentially die.

Women ARE primary victims in war, the same way ALL humans are victims in war. Some sides suffer more or less than others, but at the end of the day, it is people who suffer, and that includes soldiers, civilians, men, women, children - the whole lot suffer. Soldiers suffer stress, injury, permanent disability or even death from combat. Civilians suffer from money and resources being appropriated to war, which hurts the economy and they can have their cities bombed, their friends or colleagues die or suffer from violence and disaster as a knock-on effect from conflict. Women can suffer due to the loss of a husband, son, friend or support, and from much worse if their town is pillaged. Children suffer from war just being being near or it from losing a family member or home from it.

War is terrible. War IS sometimes necessary, but it is never a good thing for society. Selective individuals can benefit from war, but modern day combat is almost always detrimental to society and to the species at large. You can claim that war is a driver of human innovation, and in some ways it is - but you can't be sure that had the state given the money that was used in war to direct research, that maybe even more benefits would have been derived. War might (occasionally) result in some good things, but I have the feeling that it's one of the least efficient, most short-term solution to pressing problems.

I'm not insulting soldiers by saying War is bad. Most soldiers who have experienced combat will say that War is bad, and I also agree that sometimes it IS necessary. However, I also believe that, by nature, humans are a bit quick to go to war, especially if they think they can win. I also would encourage each and every soldier to move beyond the "I'm serving my country" line - you might be serving your country, but that is no guarantee that your country is correct. Patriotism is a wonderful thing when used in service of something good. It is a terrible thing when used for bad purposes. Remember, some of the most Patriotic people in History were the Japanese Imperialists and Roman Centurions, and we are all quite aware of how gosh-darn BRUTAL those people were. You should serve your country if your country needs to be defended, but you should think very hard about whether or not the war you are involved in was justified or not. Maybe it is. But Maybe it isn't. Patriotism in the sense that you love the values of your nation, is usually a good thing. America's constitution is a grand document and even though I am not American myself, I admire and greatly respect the Constitution and the American system of government. If you are a patriot in the sense that you love legal freedoms, guarantees and limits on power, then that is a good thing.

But there is another type of Patriotism - a very, VERY ugly type of Patriotism, which I wouldn't even call real Patriotism, but Jingoism. It's the "My Country, Right or Wrong" sort of belief - the idea that your nation is best because that's the one you were born in. The idea that, as long as it's what's in your nations "interests", anything is justified. This sort of Patriotism is nothing more than blind pride and arrogance. It is valueless, because it worships a brand name, a flag, or a particular slogan or image. So many people make the mistake of loving the flag, but not even having a CLUE about the ideas that flag is supposed to stand for. A lot of people just chant the anthem, chant the motto, and bray that they are the best, and no one else, because of.... well, REASONS, which they rarely elucidate. These are your Nazis, your Commisars, your drunken "USA, USA" chanting fratboy, your Terrorist or Imperialist - they are the worst sort of civilian, the worst sort of soldier, the type who would welcome fascism so long as it was draped in the flag and carrying a cross. The "patriot" who doesn't even have a real clue about what it is they supposedly love about their history.

This sort of patriot is NOT confined to the US - he or she can be found in any nation on Earth. Every time I hear a Chinese Citizen insist that it was right for the PRC to take over Tibet, every time I hear some one from the UK insist that the British Empire was a "good" thing, Every time I hear an American still try to claim that there were WMDs in Iraq or that WMDs weren't the point of the war, every time I hear one more Indian person say they should just Nuke Pakistan or take Kashmir by force, every time I hear a Sri Lankan try to justify what the army did to the Tamils or every time I hear a Tamil try to lamely, pathetically justify a suicide attack on a school, and every time I hear an old Japanese veteran try to excuse the Rape of Nanjing I think of a brainless, jingoistic false patriot - one of the worst types of human being possible.

Patriotism, TRUE patriotism should be reserved for values and values ALONE. Not a song, not an anthem, not a flag, not an accent, not name or an image. Images can be corrupted, songs can be subverted, and anyone can fly a flag. If you pledge your allegiance to shallow, abuse prone symbols, be prepared for smarter people to use your patriotism against you and for their own purposes.
 

Weslebear

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Death is a definite end to the suffering, and physical pain will never rival grieving and emotional pain.

By default I would say everyone who doesn't die but experiences all the suffering none the less are the worst off, male/female in the army or not they are worse off than the dead.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Feb 20, 2011
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Abandon4093 said:
NinjaDeathSlap said:
Abandon4093 said:
metagross111 said:
Dumbfish1 said:
Everyone's a victim, whether they sign up to it out of a misguided sense of patriotism or they're caught in the crossfire.
UK, huh? Yeah, you guys would think all patriotism is misguided. Suck a dick. I didn't go on tour twice for no good reason.
What in the Hell is that even supposed to mean? Xneophobe much?

And I'm really sorry to break this to you. But you did.

Some wars are unavoidable. Iraq was not(assuming your tours were Iraq, Afghanistan etc.). And believe it or not, the middle East didn't start it.

Sidenote, I'm not the guy you quoted.
(In the specific case of Afghanistan) Indeed, the middle east didn't start it, Al Qaeda did. Therefore, we are fighting Al Qaeda and the people who support/shelter/train them. Besides (again, specifically Afghanistan) this stopped being just a simple matter of retribution or justice or whatever the hell you want to call it for 9/11 a long time ago. Now it's also about fighting so that in the future little girls will be safe enough to go to school in their own country, or make their own choices about their own lives without the fear of being persecuted and killed by a bunch of maniac zealots.

I'm not naive, I know all wars, no matter how just the cause is for them, are a messy business, but can you really say that the example I've just given is 'no good reason'.

(I'm not the guy you quoted either)
Al Qaeda didn't start it. There was a lot going on a long time before 9/11. I'm not condoning what Al Qaeda did. In-fact a lot of what they do sickens me. And I do not back Sharia law, at all. But it is their land. Their way of life. We really do not have the right to impose our beliefs on them, no matter how much more logical and fair they are.

But the west in general cannot claim innocence in this matter, what so ever.
Considering the sheer scale of 9/11 the stuff that happened before hand now seems pretty insignificant. Anyway, it's not like the West was making any aggressive moves before then, they definitely threw the first stone no matter how far you go back. Hell, the reason Bin Laden went underground and started adopting terrorism in the first place wasn't as some defiant gesture against US atrocities. He was just pissed off that the Saudi government actually WANTED the US and UK coalition to liberate Kuwait in the first Gulf War rather than use Arab mercenaries instead. You see, what he really hated wasn't that we were in the Arab homeland without permission, but that we DID have the permission and blessing of almost everyone except him.

And hang on! "Imposing our beliefs"? This isn't some kind of Crusade. Bringing the Western gifts of Christianity and McDonald's to the unwashed natives of Afghanistan! While I agree that not every culture suits democracy (or any kind of centralised government at all really), but what I was talking about had nothing to do with that. Everybody, and I mean everybody not matter what religion they worship or what system of government they support, is entitled to basic human rights and freedoms. If the Taliban get their way (Sidenote: In regards to The Taliban, as far as I'm concerned it stops being "their" land and culture the moment they restrict the rights and freedoms of everyone around them. So I quite frankly don't give the tiniest shit about what they want to do with "their" land.) Anyway, if they get their way a large number of innocent Afghans get denied the sort of basic rights that everyone should be entitled to, either to have or at least make the choice to reject for themselves. We're not there to impose a system of beliefs on them that they don't want, we're there to keep them safe from the very people that would do that. You can say we have no right to intervene if you want, but I for one am proud that I live in a country that doesn't just let that kind of shit happen to people because 'hurr durr, it not r place to inturfear'.

The culture of the West isn't perfect, not by a long shot. But while we still aren't torturing and killing our own countrymen in cold blood just because they don't agree with our psychopathic view of the world we get to take the moral high ground on this one.
 

TheScientificIssole

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Iconsting said:
Fuck Hillary and her bullshit. If she runs, I'll vote Republican.
The thing is why even give a crap about the party, give a crap about what they say. I think the party system is horrible.
OT: That guy who I quoted did say something great. Though she also excluded the possibilities of those who appreciate a romance of the same sex. The U.S. is so freedom right now.
 

Thaluikhain

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Jegsimmons said:
but who said civilians were ok to kill? doesnt that end up in a court martial, and in some cases straight up imprisonment? (which it usually ends up as)
Well...civilian deathas are allowed as long as they aren't what you are trying to cause. If you are pursuing a military goal, and civilians are killed, then lots of value judgements on words like "legitmate" and "excessive" get tossed around.

Secondly, a government willing to prosecute soldiers for war crimes has to be willing to admit to the world that its soldiers have committed war crimes. Allegations of war crimes tend not to be made by members of the service alleged to have done them.

Thirdly, certain nations avoid signing international treaties in regards to what they may or may not do in war. Usually these tend to be nations without whom the treaty is a bit of a joke.
 

Trippy Turtle

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May 10, 2010
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Warforger said:
Trippy Turtle said:
"Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat."
- Hillary Clinton.

I Think this is a load of crap. I mean sure, it would be bad to lose a family member but it would be a whole lot worse to die in combat. I believe the true "Victims" of war are the civilians that die when they have no part in the war. What are your opinions on this quote?
What the hell? That's stupid to say (the quote I mean). First off it's best to specify which kind of wars we're talking about, if its the current type i.e. fight in a faraway land, then no women are SO not the primary victims, if victims at all. Secondly she's assuming all women had Husbands and if they don't they need husbands, or maybe I'm twisting her words but why are husbands the reason women suffer? Lastly Ok c'mon, in a war the civilians always tend to be the least effected, not nearly as much as the military. I mean look at current wars, we haven't felt any effect of any of the wars the Western world has gone into (i.e. there's no cost or anything reminding you to the state of war, no rations no bombings etc.) you could argue the debt but defensive spending has not brought it to that and other departments are to blame, like healthcare, you could argue economy but again other factors are also to blame i.e. Federal Reserve.
The soldiers suffer more but they signed up for it. 101,837 civilian deaths were recorded in Iraq compared to the 4473 american soldiers deaths.
 

trollnystan

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Dec 27, 2010
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Korolev said:
Snip wall of text of insightfullness


Well said Escapist, well said.

OT: My own opinion is pretty much covered by Korolev. So this is mostly to avoid a low content post.
 

MASTACHIEFPWN

Will fight you and lose
Mar 27, 2010
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"We fought for a reason at one point, I'll be honest, after this country went to hell, I laughed that all of the ruthless polititions, that didn't care about the people who were being tormented that their brothers and sisters we're dying for a powershow, and not a reason, were burned at the stake. This is reminding the people who still have their freedom of why we faught in the first place, to preserve freedom, not for us, but for everyone else."

Everyone suffers from war,

who suffers more, though, the sufferer or the witness?
 

Sandernista

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Abandon4093 said:
metagross111 said:
Dumbfish1 said:
Everyone's a victim, whether they sign up to it out of a misguided sense of patriotism or they're caught in the crossfire.
UK, huh? Yeah, you guys would think all patriotism is misguided. Suck a dick. I didn't go on tour twice for no good reason.
What in the Hell is that even supposed to mean? Xenophobe much?

And I'm really sorry to break this to you. But you did.

Some wars are unavoidable. Iraq was not(assuming your tours were Iraq, Afghanistan etc.). And believe it or not, the middle East didn't start it.

Sidenote, I'm not the guy you quoted.
Afghanistan is where the members of Al-Qaeda who planned the Sept. 11th attacks were being hid by the Taliban. There was definitely a reason for us to enter into that war. When a foreign country is aiding and abetting people who are attacking your country, not to mention being a horrible theocracy, it is just to retaliate.

As for Iraq... Well the justification neo-cons came up with to get us in there were complete bullshit.
 

Sandernista

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Abandon4093 said:
And again, what you're essentially talking about is imposing our beliefs onto them.
Just like how the Taliban was imposing their beliefs on the Shia. By killing them.