Do you consider Fate/Stay Night UBW censored porn?

[Kotaro]

As someone who has both read the visual novel and seen most of what came after, I can soundly say that no, the erotic content in the VN doesn't take away from the rest of the franchise's works.

Point the first: The sex scenes are in the minority of the game. In the three plot routes, only one of them has more than a single sex scene in it.
Point the second: The sex scenes are by far the worst-written parts of the VN. They're not as awful as the ones in Tsukihime, but they're still pretty bad. The rest of the VN is excellent, however.
Point the third: The sex scenes are, in fact, integral to the plot, in all cases tying to sex being an efficient way of transferring magical energy from one person to another in the Fate universe.

Spoiler: To elaborate... (SPOILERS)

In the Fate route, Shiro and Saber do it so he can give her extra magical energy for an upcoming fight. In Unlimited Blade Works, Shiro and Rin do it so she can give him some extra for an upcoming fight. And in Heaven's Feel, Shiro and Sakura do it repeatedly over the course of the story because she needs a continuous supply of magic to keep from going insane. Heaven's Feel does also contain an erotic dream Shiro has about Rin, but the scene is intentionally more disturbing than erotic.

Point the fourth: For all that the presence of these scenes is integral to the story, their actual content is secondary. You can easily just skip over them, say in your head, "They have sex here," and you wouldn't lose anything. In fact, the PS2 and Vita ports/remakes of the VN replaced the sex scenes with alternate ones, and while the replacements really don't make much sense, even in-context, the fact that they were able to do that is rather telling.

I love the Fate/stay night visual novel (though I do not love its sex scenes, as they're rather poorly-done). The Fate/Zero anime is one of my favorite anime series. I'm looking forward to the eventual completion of the fan translation of Fate/hollow ataraxia. I enjoyed both Fate/Unlimited Codes and Fate/Extra. And while I think the old anime adaptation of the Fate route was terrible, and the old movie adaptation of Unlimited Blade Works was just mediocre, I am hyped to see the new Unlimited Blade Works anime.

 

[NeutralDrow]

I'm looking forward to the eventual completion of the fan translation of Fate/hollow ataraxia.

<url=http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/5046-Fate-Hollow-Ataraxia-Translation-Patches>Officially completed as of a few weeks ago.

snip

Didn't you make a text review of Fate/stay night at one point?

Also, given the allegations of sexism or at least stupidity involving women thrown towards Nasu, I'm not sure how to think about his writing especially after seeing some of the lines during those scenes, they look like a 10 year old's idea of erotic speech (I want to vomit just from remembering some of the lines)

That I did. Too embarrassed to link it again without fixing the images first (transferring everything over to Imgur, and finding some replacement for the old img_inline code).

Eh, different strokes, different folks, I guess. I'm a really visual person, and I found out during the Type-Moon VNs that that extends to metaphor, as well. I'm never able to notice the bad writing during the scenes themselves, partly because I'm too distracted by the situation and the music, partly because every time Nasu uses an awkward metaphor, my mind instantly translates it into an image of what's really being described (eg. "mollusc" = "lesbian frottage"). I didn't even realize how badly written Tsukihime's sex scenes were until six months after the fact (when the internet told me, and I read some outside the context).

Also, I think we may need to make a encyclopedia on Nasuverse terms like "origin","Alaya","the Ultimate Ones","Akasha" and the like since, to be blunt, the whole universe feels like a chunnibyou's gigantic fanfiction made over all of high school when the dude was bored. And this is coming from a guy who actually can understand Toaru Majutsu no Index's convoluted symbolic magic system

<url=http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page>Like a wiki, say?

edit: also, isn't Heaven's Fell considered kind of disgusting by some female readers and critics due to the framing of Sakura's actions?

I've never heard that before. Heard plenty of criticism about Sakura being evil, or uninteresting, or taking away valuable screentime from other people, but never anti-feminist. I admit, I don't follow Jesuotaku and don't go on the SA forums for any reason other than Let's Plays.

snip

Okay then, I disagree with her, and the person she was quoting. In fact, I could be misinterpreting (I'm sure I'm reading JO wrong, there, since I remember some controversy around her calling Korra from Avatar a c***), but it sounds like it's coming from the perspective of "feminine" being inherently degrading. It sounds really strange to me, because nothing about Saber's personal plotline or backstory says anything about her being "tamed." She's the same badass at the end of the story as she was at the beginning, just with a newfound sense of identity and self-worth, and no longer trying to erase herself from existence for her failures.

In other words, I agree that she becomes a badass warrior, GIRRRRRL, and king all at once. I just don't see how any of those is at the expense of the others in the story proper.

In addition, the lines said in Fate may be a case of poor writing rather than unintentional sexism out of a feeling of protecting Saber instead of any sexist ideals.

Fairly sure the intention of the writing was "unintentional sexism." Or rather, "unintended sexism," and on the part of the character. It's not that Shirou is necessarily "better" in UBW and HF than in Fate (though he certainly displays fewer grating habits), but that those routes highlight the contrast and show something was seriously off with Shirou in Fate. That's a whole other discussion, though.

Also, I realize this wasn't directed at me, but...

Spoiler

The heaven's feel route has Sakura's backstory filled with abuse and rape at the hands of Zouken and Shinji and while they do get their retribution, it still seems odd that Sakura would want to have sex with Shirou after what had happened. Granted, psychology is not my field of study and the interplay is probably difficult to understand but it seems unlikely

Sexual abuse victims don't all react in the same way, nor do they all recover in the same way.

Spoiler

Sakura wanted to have sex with Shirou because she was physically and emotionally attracted to him (extremely so, in both categories), because she trusted him, because she was horny (both from normal teenage hormones and from the worms), and because the abuse she suffered didn't turn off her libido. I don't know the relative rates of lowered and increased sex drives as a reaction to rape, but they both happen (as does little effect happening).

I really should stop talking about this or this will end badly

Ah...

...well, at least it's not R&P.

CAPTCHA: Axe. Describe this brand with any word(s)

"Intrusive."

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip

To address the points in relative order:
-I can understand a person being more inclined towards visualization of what is being said but the issue is while I can get the metaphor being said, some of the lines could be polished up to make it better. I'm the type that tries to read every line of dialogue and if that dialogue is cringeworthy (see the infamous meme, yes I know that was a mistranslation but still), I can't get into it. I'm pretty sure that those with better memories can pull exact lines but my general impression were that its dialogue is overly wordy and full of purple prose that could probably be removed.
-Even the wiki is not that helpful because some of them are full of purple prose and roundabout ways of describing it's core concepts
- I think she argues that they focused too much on her as a woman and not as a person and given this interview [http://thessaliah.tumblr.com/post/31143127269/the-mystery-of-shirous-disappearing-sexism-one], I'm not entirely sure if I can argue against JO on this.
-I'm pretty sure there are better ways to convey how Shirou is a bit messed up than through "unintentional" sexism. Kiritsugu lost a lot of people in his life and I don't remember him being anything like Shirou in terms of his views on women. We got how messed up he was from his other interactions. I'm certain you can make Shirou's guilt complex and lack of self more apparent than through lines that make me vomit (there is also the line about Mitsuzuri that I didn't bring up that I really don't like and despise even after the cultural context)
-That's fair but I still think that it could be handled and written better

That's pretty much my argument with Fate/ Stay Night, it could be written better. The purple prose, poor dialogue and the like could easily be rewritten and changed to be less problematic

this post [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4412875#4412875] pretty much summarizes it

 

[NeutralDrow]

Not really arguing with those first two things (the first was just an ironic musing, not an argument, and the second...have to agree to disagree). The others...

- I think she argues that they focused too much on her as a woman and not as a person and given this interview [http://thessaliah.tumblr.com/post/31143127269/the-mystery-of-shirous-disappearing-sexism-one], I'm not entirely sure if I can argue against JO on this.

Because women aren't people. I know that's not what's being said, but that phrasing made me do a double-take.

Then I guess I'll have to disagree with the author (not too hard to do, had to do that with JK Rowling recently), assuming that's what Nasu was saying. Unless there's something in the context that contradicts it, it sounds to me more like he was trying to push the love story through without it being jarring and abrupt, a romantic Chekov's Gun, but felt he did poorly at it; it doesn't seem to support the argument that Saber's role and development itself is sexist (especially since she herself never responds positively to the "but you're a girl" comments, even after their nominal date). I assume it had something to do with Gen Urobochi saying something about how he never saw Saber and Shirou as a couple, which I also have to disagree with (they mirror each other well enough to be very friendly in the other routes, and to catalyze each others' growth in Fate).

Frankly, I also have to disagree with that poster. It's like they tried to bring up a common argument about the contrast of Shirou's sexism in Fate vs not in UBW/HF and counter it, but chopped it into several pieces to make it easier to counter. Those three things - Shirou's Fate-exclusive infatuation with Saber, him seeing her nearly killed by Berserker, and his own emotional immaturity and survivor's guilt - aren't separate arguments. They're what contrast him to UBW/HF Shirou, who is never in a position where he sees the person he loves nearly killed before his eyes, demonstrate his own helplessness, and realize not only that he's ridiculously outclassed, in over his head, and patently unqualified to protect them, but that they're also doomed no matter what he does...all at once. Since his love relationships with Rin and Sakura and non-Fate friendship with Saber weren't marred by an extra dose of PTSD and shock to the martyr complex, it makes sense that he wouldn't display any in-retrospect OOC sexism towards them that he does towards Fate Saber. He only does it there because he has literally no other ideas about how to convince Saber to stop fighting, and isn't mature enough to realize why he's even trying.

Going by Nasu's words (which I'm totally willing to believe, considering his motivation for changing Fate/Prototype), it may have been a complete accident, but it still made internal sense and helped clarify certain twists in Shirou's behavior (especially in Heaven's Feel), and so doesn't strike me as bad writing.

I'm certain you can make Shirou's guilt complex and lack of self more apparent than through lines that make me vomit (there is also the line about Mitsuzuri that I didn't bring up that I really don't like and despise even after the cultural context)

Considering he reacts in the exact opposite manner when the same thing happens to Ayako in UBW, I always assumed he was projecting and spoke before he realized what he was saying.

There is another non-Saber-related sexist interlude somewhere in the game, but I've forgotten what it was.

That's pretty much my argument with Fate/ Stay Night, it could be written better. The purple prose, poor dialogue and the like could easily be rewritten and changed to be less problematic

Agree to disagree, then? It's not like I think Nasu is perfect, especially early on (hell, I read that he was considering rewriting Kara no Kyoukai to fix its problems, but then watched the UFOtable anime and realized they already fixed it better than he could), but I still thought the end result was great.

this post [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4412875#4412875] pretty much summarizes it

That's an awfully presumptuous post. "This work is actually terrible for these reasons. Don't agree? Well, you're blinded by nostalgia and inexperience. Go read more things and you'll agree with me."

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip

points in order:
-I suppose the argument about Shirou's immaturity is a good one that frames his actions well within the story but that still doesn't dispel the presence of those lines and the uncomfortable feelings that they can cause some people especially since two of the female critics on ANN had expressed their concerns about it.
-Not sure where the interlude is though some searching has found that Issei talked about what a traditional woman is supposed to be like. Getting into that would be a long discussion of classical Japanese values vs modern feminism and I doubt we would want that.
-Agree to disagree since it feels overly wordy to me. I get he was trying to go for metaphor but it feels off and some of it's sex dialogue is blunt and vomit inducing but I know Nasu is not to blame.
-I suppose it is a bit presumptuous though I certainly would argue that nostalgia and inexperience can have effects on a person's evaluation of a work of art. To be fair there is another line from the current reviewer of the UBW adaptation "I like to think of the VN as a diamond coated in three inches of compacted dirt". The person for the record loves the current adaptation but dislikes the light novels claiming sexism and poor writing.

the review with the line is here [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/fate-stay-night-unlimited-blade-works/episode-0-2/.80081]

 

[NeutralDrow]

Narrowing it down.

-Not sure where the interlude is though some searching has found that Issei talked about what a traditional woman is supposed to be like. Getting into that would be a long discussion of classical Japanese values vs modern feminism and I doubt we would want that.

No, it was definitely something Shirou says, and I think it passed without comment since it was just in his head. When Issei's chauvinism comes up, it's always played for laughs due to Rin being a living antithesis to it.

To be fair there is another line from the current reviewer of the UBW adaptation "I like to think of the VN as a diamond coated in three inches of compacted dirt". The person for the record loves the current adaptation but dislikes the light novels claiming sexism and poor writing.

the review with the line is here [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/fate-stay-night-unlimited-blade-works/episode-0-2/.80081]

..."heinous misogyny." Okay, yeah, that's someone who was uncomfortable with Fate Shirou. Either that, or she played just far enough to reach the Makiri worms, which is the only thing I would use that strong a term for.

Not much more I can say, 'cept that everything she says she's getting from the adaptation, I already got from the visual novel. That said, it sounds like the people who disliked the VN are finally getting a good adaptation of the story they can stomach, and that can only be a good thing.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Narrowing it down.

-Not sure where the interlude is though some searching has found that Issei talked about what a traditional woman is supposed to be like. Getting into that would be a long discussion of classical Japanese values vs modern feminism and I doubt we would want that.

No, it was definitely something Shirou says, and I think it passed without comment since it was just in his head. When Issei's chauvinism comes up, it's always played for laughs due to Rin being a living antithesis to it.

To be fair there is another line from the current reviewer of the UBW adaptation "I like to think of the VN as a diamond coated in three inches of compacted dirt". The person for the record loves the current adaptation but dislikes the light novels claiming sexism and poor writing.

the review with the line is here [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/fate-stay-night-unlimited-blade-works/episode-0-2/.80081]

..."heinous misogyny." Okay, yeah, that's someone who was uncomfortable with Fate Shirou. Either that, or she played just far enough to reach the Makiri worms, which is the only thing I would use that strong a term for.

Not much more I can say, 'cept that everything she says she's getting from the adaptation, I already got from the visual novel. That said, it sounds like the people who disliked the VN are finally getting a good adaptation of the story they can stomach, and that can only be a good thing.

Yeah, I really can't defend the design of the Makiri crest worms especially since Reala Nua had easily changed their design to be less phalic and their effect on Sakura isn't the most palatable

As for the adaptation, yeah, the new UBW anime is really good. I probably won't put it on Fate/Zero's level yet but it's well paced, well animated, Shirou seems very upstanding, the interplay between Rin and Shirou is fun to watch and i'm thoroughly entertained.

I'm a little worried about when Saber Illy comes in because well, some have claimed that is a giant bucket of worms (why did I use that phrase) but I will see for myself if there is any issue with the framing.

There will also be a Heaven Feel movie but i'm concerned about the pacing and direction of that just simply out of the massive time compression.

 

[NeutralDrow]

I'm a little worried about when Saber Illy comes in because well, some have claimed that is a giant bucket of worms (why did I use that phrase) but I will see for myself if there is any issue with the framing.

Saber Lily?? I thought she was only in Fate/Unlimited Codes.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I'm a little worried about when Saber Illy comes in because well, some have claimed that is a giant bucket of worms (why did I use that phrase) but I will see for myself if there is any issue with the framing.

Saber Lily?? I thought she was only in Fate/Unlimited Codes.

right, forgot

it was a joke by Urobuchi and Nazu based around Caster's control over Saber during UBW

still I am a bit concerned on how they frame that scene. But I trust that Ufotable is better able to frame something like that than what Sunrise is doing

(yes, I still dislike Cross Ange and will harp on it for a while)

 

[Auron225]

My experience with Fate / Stay Night is that I've only seen the original anime so I can only speak from that.

I did find that episode in the middle (before the Berserker encounter in the woods) hella strange to say the least. It seemed to come from f*cking nowhere! I remember thinking "Did the director have a sudden heart attack and his horny teenage son had to take over for the day? Why and what?"

Reading this thread has been somewhat enlightening, given that it was supposed to be there and they'd just done a fantastic job at omitting it from everywhere else it might have appeared. Now I'm just astounded that they for some reason dropped the ball in altering that particular scene, cause it still feels out of nowhere compared to the rest of the show.