Do you enjoy committing genocide?

[CaptainMarvelous]

Is it stipulated that the Illithid need a healthy sentient host to reproduce? Because if not, then I can think of a compromise that would be to everyone's benefit: find a way to mass-produce brain-dead clones for the Illithid to use. That way no one has to suffer, and perhaps the Illithids will become a bit less evil when this can be used to give them a real chance to assimilate with non-squid society.

Well... they need psychic energy to survive and they gain that by consuming brains yet, dont use these leftovers to provide bodies for their tadpoles so I would guess not. A couple turned into Lichs though so one would imagine that gets around needing to eat brains (just need to sacrifice souls instead)

 

[Thaluikhain]

Is it stipulated that the Illithid need a healthy sentient host to reproduce? Because if not, then I can think of a compromise that would be to everyone's benefit: find a way to mass-produce brain-dead clones for the Illithid to use. That way no one has to suffer, and perhaps the Illithids will become a bit less evil when this can be used to give them a real chance to assimilate with non-squid society.

I think they have to absorb something that has lived a proper life. OTOH, not like there are many uses for dead people's brains.

However, the illithids are supposed to be rather evil anyway, but then brain eating might be an important cultural part in this.

 

[Souplex]

So the thought has been bouncing around in my head for a while now: Can you ethically justify genocide against the Illithids?
Background for people who don't know D&D minutiae: The Illithids or "Mindflayers" are a psychic race of universally-evil brain-eating squid men.
In order to live, they must eat the brains of other sentient races, and they are biologically programmed to see other species as little more than cattle and slaves.
In order to reproduce they place a larva into the head of a living humanoid which then eats the brain and re-purposes the body into a new illithid.
tldr: They can only function by murdering other sentient beings.
Therefore, would genocide against them be justifiable?

Certainly would have to be contemplated. Perhaps if the Illithid actually took humans and humanoids as threats to their existence (a laughable concept to any DM who loves his monsters), then they could be convinced to alter their needs through dietary and sexual (and likely magical) experimentation, or perhaps settling on other options, like eating the brains of the recently deceased through civil permissions. In these cases, they would have to adapt to survive.

Nonetheless, as I see it from the rest of the intelligent race's point of view (possibly excluding the Children of Gith of course, who are all twisted by their racially ingrained desires for revenge against the Mind Flayers), the necessary acts taken would have nothing to do with "enjoying" them.

Cool question!

I mean for magical solutions maybe just a ring of sustenance for dietary needs

oh... then,

okay.

Problem solved!

There's no ring of sustenance in 5th edition. Problem not solved.

Ugh, sorry, I have been playing Pathfinder, and I tend to use 3.5 rules, anyways.

Think outside the box, my good man.

Or... just, like, make it up.

I need a solution before my Paladin goes up against them. I don't want to have to fall.
Also; a ring of sustenance might not provide the psychic energy they need.

Woah, who said you had to "fall"?

I mean, if your Paladin was fighting for what they thought was righteous, and good, then they won't fall to anything, yeah?

I mean, there is only so far that one can spare their lives in the name of a good entity...

but then again, I've never really tried a truly devoted character...

EDIT: Look, if you want some amazing character development to unfold during the game, you have to let the DM take this. A paladin that realizes that it can't murder the universe into goodness is one of the most engaging and exciting arcs that both the DM and the player can do at the same time about the same character. It's awesome!

EDIT ADDITION: To further my point, I hope you and your DM reach an agreement about your Paladin, and the subjected (herein titled 'the Fallen', or your character), please respond! This site is in desperate need of actual feedback from the roleplaying edge, and this would be a major stepping stone (at least in my opinion).

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I realize Illithid genocide totally fits with Ser's ethos.
The speech he gave when explaining why the Oath of Devotion is cool, (In 5E every class has subclasses. Devotion is Paladin: Classic, Vengeance is Grey Knight/Avenger) but the Oath of Vengeance is for tryhard 12-year-old edgelords: "Vengeance ees poyntlees, "Zey made people zuffir, so zey moost zuffir?" Vhat doez zat accomplish? No, zey moost be zhtaped becoz zey are a threet ta innozent peepul who have done zem no wrong." (Me: My character has an accent. Them: What kind of accent? Me: An accent!)
In addition, it seems like the tenets of the Oath of Devotion are pushing for an Illithid genocide.
Compassion: Aid others, protect the weak, and
punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your
foes, but temper it with wisdom.

Spoiler: The other less relevant tenets:

Honesty. Don't lie or cheat. Let your word be
your promise.
Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise
Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your
honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as
much good as possible while causing the least
amount of harm.
Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their
consequences, protect those entrusted to your care,
and obey those who have just authority over you.

 

[Souplex]

Yes, I can ethically justify genociding Illithids, given that their ultimate goal is to extinguish the sun.

Not sure about other reasons. Barring some of the fan theories about them being modified future humans, they can't really help their reproduction method. Can definitely kill the ones that are eating brains (out of self-defense if nothing else), but Spelljammer mindflayers manage to get psychic sustenance without killing sentients. Hell, there's even a redeemed, Good-aligned illithid in the 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds.

Could you elaborate on the Spelljammer illithids? We're actually doing spelljammer, (DM decided after running a published campaign (Storm King's Thunder) that he was sick of constrained stories, and has been playing pretty fast and loose) but I can't find any info online about the Illithids there except that they're "Marginally less evil".
My reading seems to tell me that full genocide against all illithids isn't necessary, but definitely against all elder-brains.

Spoiler: Volo's Guide to Monsters on renegade Illithids:

Sometimes a mind flayer that's away from its colony breaks free from the elder brain. Perhaps it ran into a situation where its bonds of obedience were broken, or perhaps the colony was destroyed while it was away. In such a case, the mind flayer becomes free-willed for as long as it avoids contact with an elder brain.
A renegade illithid remains fearful of gith attacks, and likely sets about creating a sort of colony of its own, the better to remain undetected. It gathers minions, establishes a lair, and makes defense of its territory a
top priority. Unlike colonial mind flayers, rogue illithids develop a healthy respect for those not of their kind.
They treat especially powerful creatures and individuals as equals, not adversaries, and seek to cooperate with them. A renegade mind flayer might become a trusted advisor or a powerful ally, so long as it is kept well fed.
Any alliance it makes, however, collapses if the mind flayer falls under the sway of an elder brain once more

They'd also have to agree to kill any Ulitharids, or at least not turn them into Elder Brains.

 

[Sonmi]

I don't really need much excuse to genocide.

Fanatic Purifier, I suppose?

 

[NeutralDrow]

Yes, I can ethically justify genociding Illithids, given that their ultimate goal is to extinguish the sun.

Not sure about other reasons. Barring some of the fan theories about them being modified future humans, they can't really help their reproduction method. Can definitely kill the ones that are eating brains (out of self-defense if nothing else), but Spelljammer mindflayers manage to get psychic sustenance without killing sentients. Hell, there's even a redeemed, Good-aligned illithid in the 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds.

Could you elaborate on the Spelljammer illithids? We're actually doing spelljammer, (DM decided after running a published campaign (Storm King's Thunder) that he was sick of constrained stories, and has been playing pretty fast and loose) but I can't find any info online about the Illithids there except that they're "Marginally less evil".

There's references to a type of moss that, when growing in large enough quantities, becomes sapient and provides psychic energy similar to a sentient humanoid brain.

Weird. I coulda sworn it was in Spelljammer (as part of what allowed the "marginally less evil" illithid writeup), but on looking for it again, the only place I'm seeing it in official materials is the 4ed book of the Underdark.

 

[RunsWithBears]

Why would genocide be justified (as meaningless as such a jusitifaction might be) against a race that needs to kill other sentient beings to survive?

I'll give you the name of another race that does that and it may sound familiar to you: Humans.

Is genocide against humans 'justifiable'?

Anyhow, if something is a threat to your survival you may fight and potentially kill it. Justice and survival are not the same thing, though.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Why would genocide be justified (as meaningless as such a jusitifaction might be) against a race that needs to kill other sentient beings to survive?

I'll give you the name of another race that does that and it may sound familiar to you: Humans.

Is genocide against humans 'justifiable'?

Anyhow, if something is a threat to your survival you may fight and potentially kill it. Justice and survival are not the same thing, though.

Well, couple other details:

-They need sentient humanoids to reproduce too
-The living beings they consume need to be sapient, as in intelligent.
-They also enslave said sapients like farming.
-And my personal favourite, sometimes remove the brains and leave them alive in a pool full of brains so they can enjoy the terrified mental screams.

I mean... Its more a question of how evil does something have to be before it becomes justified to try and exterminate? If your answer is never thats fine but Mind Flayers do do worse than just kill and eat people.

 

[RunsWithBears]

Well, couple other details:

-They need sentient humanoids to reproduce too
-The living beings they consume need to be sapient, as in intelligent.
-They also enslave said sapients like farming.
-And my personal favourite, sometimes remove the brains and leave them alive in a pool full of brains so they can enjoy the terrified mental screams.

I mean... Its more a question of how evil does something have to be before it becomes justified to try and exterminate? If your answer is never thats fine but Mind Flayers do do worse than just kill and eat people.

To whom would you need to justify this?
In your hypothetical they are a threat to the human race, so there's no need to justify it to humans.

If you're talking about some sort of cosmic justice, what makes survival of one species more valuable than survival of another? What is evil to one race is survival for the other. When talking about survival what is the point of justice?

 

[Arnoxthe1]

So I have an answer and an unrelated question.

The answer for this situation is: This is the D&D universe. Therefore, magic and supernatural phenomena is EVERYWHERE. Now these beings, Mind Flayers, a race of super intelligent very magical beings. Are you telling me that in this universe of magic, where almost anything is possible, they cannot find any sort of way to survive without murdering people? Are you telling me that even with their vast intellect and capabilities, there is no other way for them to reproduce and survive? The answer is, I'm very sure there is. They just don't wanna do it. Therefore, they are harming other species for their own gain. Therefore, any who don't renounce these destructive ways needs to be eliminated. Boom. End of story.

Morals- all correct moral laws- derive from the instinct to survive. Moral behavior is survival behavior above the individual level.

Now that's settled, when Mind Flayer worms eat/take over the brains of their host, does that mean their soul is merged with theirs as well or does the host just simply die and they take control of what's left of the body?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

If apex predators are going to coexist, then they can't be predators toward each other.

In an anthropological sense, the mind-flayer/humanoid dynamic is predator/prey. And it isn't genocide for a prey to kill it's predator, even if that means the predator's extinction. That's just the natural order.

 

[cthulhuspawn82]

There is a problem in D&D with players trying to humanize non-human races. Orcs, goblins, etc. are not humans. There are not "good ones" and "bad ones". The relevant line from the older editions was "Always chaotic evil". We are also programmed against racism, but that's because we have only actually encountered one race, humans. Blacks and Whites are not different races. When/If we actually discover different races it we become more apparent that some races can be objectively superior/inferior to others, and that some pose a threat that must be destroyed. Genocide could provide a vital utilitarian purpose if not a moral one.

 

[The Lunatic]

I don't really need much excuse to genocide.

Fanatic Purifier, I suppose?

Enlightened Monarchy.

Rapturing the galaxy, one species at a time.

 

[the December King]

So I have an answer and an unrelated question.

The answer for this situation is: This is the D&D universe. Therefore, magic and supernatural phenomena is EVERYWHERE. Now these beings, Mind Flayers, a race of super intelligent very magical beings. Are you telling me that in this universe of magic, where almost anything is possible, they cannot find any sort of way to survive without murdering people? Are you telling me that even with their vast intellect and capabilities, there is no other way for them to reproduce and survive? The answer is, I'm very sure there is. They just don't wanna do it. Therefore, they are harming other species for their own gain. Therefore, any who don't renounce these destructive ways needs to be eliminated. Boom. End of story.

Well put, but of course that little pendulum can swing right back on the humans that strive to constantly expand and greedily gobble up their environment, too. Couldn't they, you know, not do that?

Now, of course, one can bring up that the human race, even in the D&D games, isn't a hivemind. Tyrants will dominate, murderers will stalk, etc. But one could, with a little effort, do the same to the Illithid- they need not all have the same outlook. And as you pointed out, with all of their abilities and access to psionic and supernatural powers, there very well could be (heck, maybe even should be) groups of Flayers that do reject the hunting of sentient beings, that have exprimented with alternate means of reproduction, etc.

Really, it's just a matter of how important the Flayers are to your game, and how deep you want the social and cultural exploration of an alien race to be.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

I have no issue apart from meta commentary with killing en mass in games when you literally do not have another option. You do what the game allows and if it doesn't let you do anything apart from kill, the only other option is to stop playing.

I'm getting flashbacks to Spec Ops The Line here.

Regarding RPGs, I always try the diplomatic method unless they are going to do terrible things if I don't stop them by killing them. To put it more directly, can you reason with a Xenomorph [https://youtu.be/rrf0cH4o_g4?t=1m16s]? Do you have issues killing them?

 

[happyninja42]

The problem with this type question, is it is based on the premise that the entire race is of the same alignment, and thus all evil. That it's a biological aspect of their species to just be evil brain eaters, with no remorse. So in that situation, where is the moral quandary? When this situation comes up, it's almost invariably framed in the "Should we punish someone who is innocent (in this example, the rachni queen who doesn't want to hurt people), for the crimes of the rest of their race?" And with a race that is 100% evil, it's not a debate. They have no room to change, they have no room to choose another path. They were written, to be a remorseless enemy, that the player has zero regret in killing. Fantasy Nazis if you will. There is a reason video games use Nazis all the time as bad guys, because nobody feels bad about killing them. They are, in D&D terms, 100% True Evil. So you can happily slaughter them by the truckloads, and it's fine.

Illithids are the same thing, as are other things, like orcs. The are just evil templates, with no ability to change.

Now if they introduced some faction of the Illithids, who were actively trying to NOT be evil, and had found some way to not have to eat the brains of sentient beings, then sure, I would say at that point, genocide of them is wrong. Because there are now examples of them being capable of not doing the thing that makes us want to kill them in the first place. Just like very few people think it's a smart idea to kill all germans, simply because they used to be Nazis, it would make as much sense to do the same with the Illithids.

 

[CaitSeith]

It's fantasy. A DM skilled enough can come up with good ideas on how to make mindflayers not to require to kill other races in order to survive. The videogame Descent to Undermountain has a friendly mindflayer NPC at the very start.

 

[Imre Csete]

Depends on the species, Turian.

 

[Dwarfman]

So the thought has been bouncing around in my head for a while now: Can you ethically justify genocide against the Illithids?
Background for people who don't know D&D minutiae: The Illithids or "Mindflayers" are a psychic race of universally-evil brain-eating squid men.
In order to live, they must eat the brains of other sentient races, and they are biologically programmed to see other species as little more than cattle and slaves.
In order to reproduce they place a larva into the head of a living humanoid which then eats the brain and re-purposes the body into a new illithid.
tldr: They can only function by murdering other sentient beings.
Therefore, would genocide against them be justifiable?

Edit: The title isn't the actual question, it's just meant to be eye-catching. It's a reference to Mass Effect. (If you kill the last rachni queen the Turian councilor asks you "Do you enjoy committing genocide?" to which you can respond "Depends on the species; Turian."

From the perspective of someone who often plays a paladin. No. You can justify your own survival or the immediate survival of others - for example the Illithids ambush you or attack a city. However willfully partaking in the extinction of an intelligent species that is simply going about the act of existence sings of hypocrisy. If they were just a unnaturally constructed abberation like an Owl Bear, you might be able to justify your convictions under the guise of defending the sanctity of nature, but even that's a stretch.

Your conclusion is also based on the premise that Illithids are irredeemable, when in the Book of Exalted Deeds Source Book an example of a redeemed NPC is an Illithid. If one can change, so can others.