Do you think Bayonetta is a positive example of a female protagonist?

[Something Amyss]

That's the issue here.

And you hear the satire defense so often that you have to wonder... when all the sexist portrayals are satire, what
are they satirizing to begin with?


About Bayonetta herself: I don't know. Could be better, could be worse, I guess. But then again she's from a Japanese game and you can't really expect a lot from Japanese games in this regard.

In fairness, satire doesn't have to be funny or clever. Although I think you're more asking the point rather than the humour value, but I'll cover my bases. I'm just saying, though, that "LOOK! PEOPLE GET HORNY OVER THIS SORT OF THING!" is sufficient to shelter yourself in satire. Granted, satire usually employs humour, but people can get away with it otherwise.

And I think that speaks to the point of calling something satire: to get away with it. Which is what I think really is the point of Bayonetta's "satire" claims. I'd honestly probably have more respect if people just said "yeah, we like digital boobies."

What are they satirising? Well, it could be those other "satirical" games, because even the developers don't "get it" or the way games "used to" be made before they all became satire....But in the end, it really looks like hiding under the satire flag because you want T&A.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I see nothing wrong with how she's dressed or acts. If my sister or girlfriend acted like, I wouldn't see a problem. My mother would be different however as even the idea of her dating would be awkward.

That said, the 'test' presented is a pretty dumb one. I mean by that logic, Princess Peach would be a glowing example of a well realized female character and champion of feminism as I'm sure the vast majority of guys would want the female presences in their lives waiting on them all the time.

Not sure what you mean by "test." I'm just trying to add something to think about. Not much of a test as trying to get people thinking some.

Well, you hit the nail on the head, sorta. See, you wouldn't have a problem if someone acted like Bayonetta, until it comes to your mother. That sorta leads to the likelihood that most people will share your point of view, yet you might feel that bayonetta could be a suitable rolemodel to their mothers.

It brings up an interesting thought, IMO. Bayonetta can be a good rolemodel, but ow the question becomes for who?

I've nothing against Bayonetta, or anyone taking after her, mind you.

As for Peach, I'll never see her as a rolemodel, personally.
I'm not limiting my "test" to guys. I just used it as an example of how rolemodels are unlikely to be universal.

 

[BarkBarker]

As a person really she has nothing, the female counterpart of the apparent male ideal, strong, in control, comfortable with their physique, pandered so heavily that nigh everything they do is to boost that ideal, why does a strong women gotta be in charge with sadistic special moves in her combat, why can't she just be an enjoyable person to be around while having all the attributes you'd expect of a FUCKING NORMAL PERSON. This lack of creating an actual person is what fucks off all the people who want to enjoy the narrative, they either have nothing of mention or they are pandered, pulled from the archetype book or relentlessly trying to go against stereotypes it comes off as pathetic.

so in short, do I think she is a positive example? Well let me ask you this do you want more female characters being as hilariously fetishist in design as her? Because much like all the boobs with annoying voices that we look down upon, she is so incredibly, horrendously designed as a character.

 

[Angelblaze]

I think she is bad 'cos I don't see how it empowers her. She might be capable but why do her special attacks mean she has to be naked? Why does she have to have a Miranda (from ME) physique (big boobs, perfect ass, long legs etc)?

It's "I am dressing provocatively in an ironic way" that might be so but you're still dressed provocatively! Although I suspect it's the opposite, they wanted to dress her provocatively and then the "it's empowering squad" showed up and just claimed it to be empowering.

I saw somebody ask "However, here's an idea: would Bayonetta still work as a character WITHOUT all the pandering?" what about "Would Bayonetta still work as an unattractive character?". Not to be offensive but we have all seen the ugly generalization, big glasses, braces, unkempt hair, spots, goofy demeanor etc. would the game be as big if Bayonetta looked like ...

Spoiler: This

Funny because as I was listening to this just now lol : www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOnoH3KMGuw

On-topic, I don't think so. Mostly because the entire game is over the fucking top and so hard to take seriously...


Then again, speaking personally I don't find female characters sexualized unless they directly clash with the design principles of the male characters and overall design of the game (IE: All the monsters and men are in super heavy armor, females get skimpy chainmail bikinis despite being the warrior/tank class for some reason Compare human males to females in Tera(in that game's defense, a-lot of the male figures are sexualized as well though)). Bayonetta seems to fit with the game well enough.

As a person really she has nothing, the female counterpart of the apparent male ideal, strong, in control, comfortable with their physique, pandered so heavily that nigh everything they do is to boost that ideal, why does a strong women gotta be in charge with sadistic special moves in her combat, why can't she just be an enjoyable person to be around while having all the attributes you'd expect of a FUCKING NORMAL PERSON. This lack of creating an actual person is what fucks off all the people who want to enjoy the narrative, they either have nothing of mention or they are pandered, pulled from the archetype book or relentlessly trying to go against stereotypes it comes off as pathetic.

so in short, do I think she is a positive example? Well let me ask you this do you want more female characters being as hilariously fetishist in design as her? Because much like all the boobs with annoying voices that we look down upon, she is so incredibly, horrendously designed as a character.

Speaking as someone who 'knows' the 'narrative' of the game...even if she wasn't as over the top as the storyline and fight scenes are...that story.


Just wow.

 

[mecegirl]

She's not a bad example of a female protagonist but I wouldn't put her up as an example of a good female protagonist. Just like I wouldn't put Dante up as an example of a good male protagonist. Bayonetta is a fun chracter but she doesn't have much dimension chracter wise.

 

[Fireaxe]

Positive? probably not, but not negative either.. just kind of a blunt implement really.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

In fairness, satire doesn't have to be funny or clever. Although I think you're more asking the point rather than the humour value, but I'll cover my bases. I'm just saying, though, that "LOOK! PEOPLE GET HORNY OVER THIS SORT OF THING!" is sufficient to shelter yourself in satire. Granted, satire usually employs humour, but people can get away with it otherwise.

And I think that speaks to the point of calling something satire: to get away with it. Which is what I think really is the point of Bayonetta's "satire" claims. I'd honestly probably have more respect if people just said "yeah, we like digital boobies."

What are they satirising? Well, it could be those other "satirical" games, because even the developers don't "get it" or the way games "used to" be made before they all became satire....But in the end, it really looks like hiding under the satire flag because you want T&A.

Personally i disagree with the notion that Bayonettas design is supposed to be satirical. Or rather, i think people confuse "satirical" with "self aware". And she is definately self aware. Everything about the game is. Its overly stereotypical character, its absurdely grandiose story, its flashy art design it owes up to all of these things and it obviously nows how ridiculous they are. But while it's constantly winking at the audience i don't think it is ever straight out making fun of these things but rather asks the player to just accept them and go with it.

 

[Phasmal]

To be honest, I don't think she's good or bad but I don't think there's much special about her either.
The only difference is that she's self-aware about the pandering.
It's not really anything we haven't seen before otherwise.

Though what's with all the people saying she's intimidating?
I don't get that at all.

 

[mecegirl]

Though what's with all the people saying she's intimidating?
I don't get that at all.

I have no idea either. The closest that I can guess is that she's presumably sexually aggressive. There is an expectation for women to be submissive when it comes to sex. Of course YMMV there are plenty of men that prefer their women either to be dominate in bed or at least to participate equally.

Other than that I can't think of how she'd be physically intimidating. The female Shepard in full armor with her blaster pointed at you, that I can see as intimidating. Bayonneta, despite her skill, not so much at first glance.

Much in the same way that a shirtless Kratos carrying a sword is intimidating, but a shirtless Dante carrying a sword isn't. Yeah they both look cool in their own way. Yeah we know that Dante has the skill to kick our ass. But even if Kratos was all bark and no bite he looks both like he can kick your ass and that he fully intends to kick your ass right this second.

 

[Pyrokinesis]

As a character within her own specific universe she fits in perfectly and thus should be judged in her own world not in ours. Because lets face it there is no such thing as perfect, one persons role model is another persons counter-example. So as a character in a clearly zaney and over the top world where heaven and hell duke it out in a less than bible looking art style i'd say her character fits in perfectly to her role.

It is kind of like Raiden from MGR-Revengence. In a world full of cyborgs and bizzar foot-mods you start to ignore what appears to be dildos serving as high-heels after a while.... so comparing that to reality would be out of place.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

I would say she's a product of her genre, characters in said genre usually have one gimmicky emotion, or attitude, and not much else. Its hard for characters in these types of to be good or bad. As for the pandering, I feel its entirely satire, as with most games, I'm more amused than aroused, but I can't speak for everyone, and I know some people are just purely aroused, but that happens.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

I find it disappointing the amount of people seeming to believe that, to be a ?positive example of a female protagonist?, you need to have no obvious sex appeal whatsoever. Jesus, it?s like debates about women and feminism have become so muddled up over the years that no-one actually seems to know what sexism is anymore.

Bayonetta is an example of ?sex-positive feminism?, a valid branch of feminism. She was also designed by a woman as a satire of stripperific videogame heroines. There?s nothing wrong in and of itself of being a sexualised, fetishized leading woman in a videogame, if there?s a reason for it. And there is. It?s part of her character, her attacks, and the aim of the game itself. If you disagree with that, then IMO, you?re the real sexist.

?That said, I?ve never actually played Bayonetta. I?ve only heard things about it and seen videos of it. So I might not know what the fuck I?m talking about. But I?m still fed up of this debate nonetheless.

 

[sumanoskae]

Our very own Bob "MovieBob" Chipman once made an important distinction about Bayonetta; it has often been said that Bayonetta moves like a stripper, but it's more accurate to say that Bayonetta moves like a dancer. For, you see, a stripper dances for YOU, Bayonetta dances for the same reason she does everything; to have some fucking fun!

Another important note is that, while her sexuality is an extension of this, the aspects of Bayonetta's personality that make her appealing as protagonist are similar to that of characters like Dante. She's not a complex character, but she, like Dante, is relatable because her devil-may-care attitude reflects that of the player in an over the top setting such as her own.

She KNOW'S the game is not to be taken seriously, she's just here to goof off and kick ass. If the sexuality was dropped from the character, I dare say she would remain appealing.

Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth and DMC 2 came out, everybody was upset because Dante had transformed from a self aware, super human joker into wet blanket that walked like a man since his debut release. Say what you will regarding characters like Dante, Ryu Hyabusa and Bayonetta being simplistic, but their charisma cannot be denied. They are a natural result of the games they inhabit, and they work perfectly within the setting.

The point of Ninja Gaiden, DMC and Bayonetta is not, has never been, and should not have to be to tell an engrossing story, immerse a player in a rich setting, or to make a profound statement. The point of these games is simple, and I find it rather wholesome; they exist to bring joy.

And joy is the operative theme here. Silly, over the top, insane, irrational, kid-on-Christmas-morning joy! That's what Bayonetta, Dante, Ryu and Kirby mean to me.

And yeah, Bayonetta is sexy as hell and was designed to be that way, but I don't see what's wrong with that. If we're arguing objectification, I would assert that, by the logic that if a character is designed to be appealing they are objectified, every fictional character written with the intent to elicit attachment is objectified.

It must be understood that art is fundamentally a practice of illusion and puppetry; a lie; a collection of elements meant to resemble desirable or realistic things without actually being those things.

Every character is essentially being used by their creator and their audience, sometimes for sexual reasons, sometimes not. And sometimes for sadistic, condescending or patronizing reasons. Even under the latter circumstances, however, I don't think any of this is morally wrong. After all, fictional characters are fictional; they don't have feelings and can't be hurt. Working out your issues within the realm of fantasy is healthy.

I think that where Bayonetta stands out is that, while she is supposed to elicit sexual arousal, she does not elicit it in a negative or insidious way. Bayonetta is not like characters such as the women from those abominable RapeLay... things, who's sexuality is portrayed as out of her control or as a weakness. Nor does she resemble characters such as the DOA girls, who from my experience, are essentially celibate and totally ignorant of their sexuality or totally disinterested in it (For the most part). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of almost any examples within DOA where the girls took an active sexual role for it's own sake; they seem to show either little to no interest in sex, or use it for ulterior motives. Speaking of ulterior motives, Bayonetta also does not resemble characters like Catwoman or Poison Ivy, whose sexuality, even when it isn't used for the aforementioned ulterior motives, is still portrayed as dangerous or problematic.

I feel that the creative spark behind Bayonetta is fairly innocent; it basically consists of "Awesome super powers wielded by a sexy, flirtatious chick with some S&M thrown in for comedic effect". I would also stress that the aforementioned S&M stuff is restricted for use on those weird, emotionless, angel things. So I don't get the impression Bayonetta is a sadist. I would say that the fact that most of Bayonetta's enemies are inhuman and presumably asexual, and thus immune to sexual manipulation, lends credence to her character; she is not trying to distract or manipulate anybody, she just likes show off.

Bayonetta's sexuality is entirely under her control, and she is allowed to enjoy and revel in it. She seems to enjoy... sharing it, but that's just it, she uses her sexuality for her own enjoyment, as anyone should be allowed to do.

And that is why I think Bayonetta is a positive figure. She fundamentally represents self awareness, honesty, confidence, joy, levity, and yes, her ass simply will not quit; she is aware of this fact, and she does not want it to. Seems like a win-win to me.

 

[Fox12]

"I argued that while she is sexualized to a degree that it's an integral part of her character and obviously designed to appeal to male gamers she manages to avoid the dreaded problem of objectification because her sexualized looks and demeanor are treated as a form of empowerment and she is generally shown to be incredibly capable and confident."

That fact that sexualzation is a core part of her design automatically means that she is a character meant to appeal to men, not women. Keep in mind a character can be sexual without being sexualized. Sexual exploitation is not a form of empowerment. There's a difference between a female character that is comfortable with her sexuality, such as Ashley from Mass Effect, and a fan service character such as Bayonetta. In the second example sexuality and fan service are not only major parts of her personality, they are her defining characteristics, and a female character who is predominantly defined by her sexuality for the gratification of young men cannot be a strong example of feminism.

That's the argument that was used to defend Sucker Punch, but It's a hollow argument in my opinion. A female character is not strong just because she can kick the head off a robot, or kill a demon with a sword. Yes, she may be physically strong, but that's not the kind of strength we're talking about is it? In this case I don't think she's a good female character at all, at least from a feminism point of view. I certainly wouldn't want to play a game with a male version of Bayonetta.

I'm not attacking people who enjoy the game, of course, I just don't consider the brand of "female empowerment" she offers to be real empowerment at all.

 

[Eve Charm]

Eh you know Bayonetta isn't completely positive but she does more good then harm. It's a character that's sexy, cause SHE wants to be sexy. She isn't degraded in her game, not stripped, not playing the weakling that needs someone else to get something done and pretty much does her own damn thing. Also a comment on how she's dressed, At least it's not something ripped from a skater boy closet. Bayonetta is a hot character, allowed to look hot and chooses to look hot. She's wearing an outfit with style, not a bright blue body suit like samus to compare her to the negative females people tend to bring up. Comparatively it looks like every other female people have been mentioning as "Positive" seem to be made like " ok lets make a hot looking character, then dress her like a boy, mess her hair up and give her a few more thing to make her -the girl next door, or the best friend zone-" rather then some personality. I rather see different character now and then instead of "AVERAGE GIRL, she's not ugly but not attractive enough to make anyone's top 5 list so she is our #1"

 

[DrOswald]

Does the opposite also apply? if a male character would be embarrassing as a father or son would that make them a sexist male character? Because I can tell you right now I would be hella embarrassed by my father if he was James Bond. The sexual activities he gets up to would be embarrassing to most people.

I honestly doubt you really mean what you wrote. You've just been trying to be provocative, but I'm pretty sure if one of your relative was friggin' James Bond you'd be quite pleased.

Because James Bond doesn't constantly act like a shameless gigolo. You wouldn't show him to you friends and see him winking and showing his crotch area.

Now, if James Bond was the kind of person who only wears a loincloth and who shoots the villains while constantly quipping sexual innuendo.... well, then I have no doubt you'd be embarassed for real.

I meant what I said, thank you very much. James Bond is a complete and total asshole. He is a womanizer who seduces women so he can use them sexually and quite often manipulate them. Bond uses women like things and leaves them for dead, often literally, when the consequences catch up to her.

So yes, I would be embarrassed of the way Bayonetta looks. But would certainly be embarrassed for who James Bond chooses the be. I might insist that Bayonetta dress like a normal person for the family get together but James Bond would not be invited.

Finally, there is one aspect of your comment that I would like some clarification on. In your words, Kinzie is the sex positive character and Bayonetta is not because "Kinzie doesn't dresses provocatively, she doesn't act or talk sexy all of the time, basically she doesn't act like a sl*t the way Bayonetta does all of the time."

So, according to you, Bayonetta is a sexist character because she looks and acts like a slut most of the time. Is this a fair summary of what you were expressing?

Bayonetta is a sexist character because she's a concoction of male fantasies (as the REAL author of the character, who is a man, admitted himself). Do I even need to explain that a female character who constantly strikes up stripper poses, moans, stereotypes every S/M porn movie cliché ever, speaks constantly in innuendo, and gets entirely naked when she fights.... is not a character made for women and is not an example of feminism? Seriously. Do I REALLY need to point that out?

Now look at Kinzie. She's actually much sexier and sluttier than Bayonetta when it comes to sex. But, lo and behold! In everyday life, she's a normal woman. Her sexual freedom does not mean that she has to be constantly imagined like a slut who is provocative all the time. Her sexual freedom is merely part of who she is... but is not everything she is nor is that her only characteristic. And more importantly, is not freedom when, like Bayonetta, you NEED to constantly be sexually aggressive with everyone, because that's the only way you can be a sexually free character.

So, here is the problem I have with Bayonetta: I have absolutely no problem with her, and to be honest I quite like the character.
But then some guys come and say "Bayonetta is a feminist character, she's what a female power fantasy is like, and I know this woman who said she likes her so I am right".

I don't have any problem with Bayonetta.... but I have a huge problem with guys who try to babble about "pro-sex feminist" and "female power fantasy" instead of openly admitting "she's a character made entirely of male fantasies, her design is great and she's pretty awesome".

Guys, you don't have to feel bad for liking Bayonetta because she's a supersexy character with style and attitude. There is nothing wrong with that!!
Because trust me, it's much worse when you try to cover it up by claiming she's the paradigm of a feminist heroine and the power fantasy women aspire to.

I was just asking for a specific clarification, I wasn't even attacking that point of view. I am not even disagreeing with it. I am just gathering information so I can take an informed position.

But since you brought it up, I did just assume Bayonetta was a sexist character until I saw women, and notably many self declared feminists, claiming she wasn't. So forgive me if I don't take your opinion as gospel truth.

And, frankly, I find your assumption that my motivation are about justifying sexual guilt offensive and quite sexist. I am a man but I am interested feminist ideas. Is that so hard to believe?

I am just curious, how do you reconcile your claim that Bayonetta is not a female power fantasy but instead a male sexual fantasy with the fact that Bayonetta was designed by a woman?

As I wrote before, I can reconcile it with the fact I made the script of a furry lesbian hentai comic for males. Look, if you want I can look it up the resulting images and show it, I have them in a backup dvd somewhere.

Women are more sexually open than males, because they don't have to demonstrate their sexual orientation, and therefore we don't have issue with illustrating sexy women or women in sexual acts. But because any male author who draws sexy men or men in sexual acts would be considered homosexual, some guys don't understand how us women are culturally open about that, and so wrongly think "it must be because naked sexy chicks is also a female fantasy".

OK. What about the other half of my post where I point out that some women actually do consider Bayonetta a power fantasy?

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

"I argued that while she is sexualized to a degree that it's an integral part of her character and obviously designed to appeal to male gamers she manages to avoid the dreaded problem of objectification because her sexualized looks and demeanor are treated as a form of empowerment and she is generally shown to be incredibly capable and confident."

That fact that sexualzation is a core part of her design automatically means that she is a character meant to appeal to men, not women. Keep in mind a character can be sexual without being sexualized. Sexual exploitation is not a form of empowerment. There's a difference between a female character that is comfortable with her sexuality, such as Ashley from Mass Effect, and a fan service character such as Bayonetta. In the second example sexuality and fan service are not only major parts of her personality, they are her defining characteristics, and a female character who is predominantly defined by her sexuality for the gratification of young men cannot be a strong example of feminism.

That's the argument that was used to defend Sucker Punch, but It's a hollow argument in my opinion. A female character is not strong just because she can kick the head off a robot, or kill a demon with a sword. Yes, she may be physically strong, but that's not the kind of strength we're talking about is it? In this case I don't think she's a good female character at all, at least from a feminism point of view. I certainly wouldn't want to play a game with a male version of Bayonetta.

I'm not attacking people who enjoy the game, of course, I just don't consider the brand of "female empowerment" she offers to be real empowerment at all.

No, the fact that she can kill demons even though she's a woman is not what i'm talking about. What makes her strong, in my opinion, is that she chooses to do it without the game acting like the fact that she is a woman was some sort of deficiency to overcome... wich is something that a lot of fiction with female protagonists does. They usually depict it as if being a woman was inherently connected to a weakness that has to be overcome before someone can be strong. Bayonetta doesn't do that, the fact that she is a woman is never in any way sown as an inherent weakness or something standing in the way of her confidence.

 

[Something Amyss]

Personally i disagree with the notion that Bayonettas design is supposed to be satirical. Or rather, i think people confuse "satirical" with "self aware". And she is definately self aware. Everything about the game is. Its overly stereotypical character, its absurdely grandiose story, its flashy art design it owes up to all of these things and it obviously nows how ridiculous they are. But while it's constantly winking at the audience i don't think it is ever straight out making fun of these things but rather asks the player to just accept them and go with it.

I ca understand this viewpoint, as it seems reasonable. It also seems like what the devs themselves were doing. They know it's titilating, you know it's titilating, let's move on.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

There is pandering, but it's clear that as a character, she's in control. It's not like she just happens to have massive breasts that bounce everywhere when she runs and she can't help it, which tends to be the case. The game is at least acknowledging that it is pandering, and the character knows it too. Furthermore, she pursues her own agenda and is never in an 'exploited' sutuation. So I'm going to say yes.

 

[Tenkage]

According to Anita Sarkeesian, she isn't, and we all know that Feminists are always right about what is morally right....ok joking aside, I found her to be a blast, showing a woman can be both sexy and powerful, she was smart, graceful, and a bit sassy.