Do you think modern games underestimate the intelligence of their players?

Salus

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I remember playing Skyrim for the first time. My friend and I were debating over the logic of the first puzzle in the game. "Hawks eat snakes, but hawks eat fish too. But the food chain should go, Hawk > Snake > Fish." After a few attempts, we wondered what we were overlooking. We looked around the room, then came the moment of realization.



The "puzzles" in Skyrim are not only ridiculously easy (perhaps preventing sleepwalkers and certain species of trolls from entering millenia-old tombs) but they also make NO LOGICAL SENSE. The "answer" was placed above the gate, the "puzzle" was that the middle part "fell." It makes one question the need for the tomb-builders to install such an elaborate mechanism, when they intend to simply carve the answer on the wall. Despite my hopes, it remained like this throughout the whole game. The puzzles were often so simple that I was challenged to come at it from the most elementary way of thinking.

Now, The Elder Scrolls is a popular series. They have a large playerbase, and they don't want kids and non-gamers getting quest-blocked at the entrance of a tomb. But I think of all the immersion we are missing by making EVERYTHING so beatable. Even the optional side-quests are the same. This extends to MANY modern games like the AC series, Thief, the ME series, Fallout, etc.

I think games need to reduce the hand-holding, because it begins to damage the game with "red carpet syndrome," where you have the uncanny feeling that the game will never let you truly fail at anything. The "last, precious remaining vial of Deathleaf extract" is never in any danger, simply because it is the last remaining vial of Deathleaf extract, and thus protected by plot armor. The game will never let it break. Consequently, the things players often find themselves excited about is "emergent content." A common example is keeping a pet in a game that obviously has no pet mechanics. The player often has to go to great lengths to protect it because the world is so cruel and indifferent to the life of their pet. There is no safety net to prevent their "friend" from dying horribly to a dragon, but instead of creating frustration, this creates an experience that feels much more real than "Oh, you lost your dog? You can re-summon him with a summoning document, or get a new one at any time."

Similarly, when every riddle is solvable, with numerous fallbacks and "hints" that pop up after X seconds of staring at the problem, we find the same thing happening again. The player never gets hindered, but he never feels smart either. I'm not saying place the major challenges in the main questline, just have them be optional teases. So much potential immersion is lost because the devs have already decided that YOU ARE THE HERO, and they will go out of their way to make you feel like one. Ironically, the only times I've felt like a hero in a game were in games that let you FAIL, and fail SO HARD that you look like a total idiot most of the time, so much so that to even briefly elevate yourself above the ferocity of your opposition is to feel like a god. Not because of whatever thing you kill in the storyline. No matter how much you prop up that big baddie in the lore, the player is not going to feel heroic if he doesn't feel overmatched, especially mentally overmatched.

Of course, a huge, towering problem arises nowadays, called "The Internet." After a certain minimum period of trial-and-rage, the problem is Googled and beaten. This is why it's important to create dynamic challenges instead of static puzzles, taking advantage of the gameplay to continuously force you to think on your feet. Hotline Miami is excellent at this. As four armed men come down the hall at you, you decide to throw your bat and knock out one of them, duck into the bathroom, snap the neck of the man at the urinal, take his gun, unload the clip into your pursuers, then drop the gun and finish the remaining survivor with a knife that was by the sink.

I know Dark Souls is a hot topic, but as another poster mentioned, we are still only exploring elementary strategy in single-player games. (Instead of running straight into room, run back out and shoot monsters in single file). I am amazed sometimes, as I watch someone else painfully BRUTE FORCE a level over and over rather than stop and think to change their approach. It's like gamers are so quick to fault the developer for something that they completely lose their capacity for creative thought. We don't have that problem IRL, where in the back of our minds we fully understand that some things aren't fair and you have to use your brains to bridge the gap, and there are no guarantees even then.

In multiplayer games, humans quickly bring the full force of their intelligence to bear on the problems their opponents confront them with. In RTS games, the complexity of the problems and elegance of the solutions is created by pitting mind against mind, stimulating the brain instead of spoon-feeding it. In most modern SP games, though, like Assassin's Creed, it is continuously being dumbed down until you can shank your way through the ever-thinning plot with little consequence. Again, I wonder if the developers are THAT hard-pressed to come up with logical worlds and stories, or if they think their audience simply isn't smart enough to "get it." Please, cut some of the puppeteer's strings and let us dance to our own tunes, even if we take a lot more tumbles. I'm getting very tired of games that don't dare to make their audience think.
 

Zhukov

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Lowest common denominator.

The simpler your puzzles and systems, the larger your potential playerbase is.

I'm personally not as angry as some over the perceived dumbing down of games. Most of the times I see this accusation it ends up just being nostalgia in disguise. Or some kind of misconception that more stats and the ability to add +2 to STR every now and again constitutes the height of mechanical complexity.

Also, some gamers are just going to be thick. Or at least inattentive. I've watched blind "Let's Plays" in which the player fails to see incredibly obvious solutions or possibilities despite the game's design bending over backwards to point them out.

Lastly, it always seems dumbed down until you're the one who gets stuck and frustrated. For example, the Portal games are not particularly difficult, but both of them had one ares where I got stuck for upwards of an hour because I failed to make a connection that, in hindsight, was embarrassingly obvious.
 

krazykidd

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Remember in castlevania lord of shadows, where there is a skip puzzle prompt? We need more of those . I personally never used it, but it's good for dumb players , and trust me, not everyone who plays videogames are smart or good at puzzles, no matter how simple they are. However, we need rewards for those who can do it.

Anyone remember silent hill 3? With the puzzle difficulty? Hard was hard as fuck if you didn't have basic knowledge of a lot of things.

Or they could just be like fuck it, the incapable people will just google it . It's not like they don't do that already.
 

Pink Gregory

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krazykidd said:
Remember in castlevania lord of shadows, where there is a skip puzzle prompt? We need more of those . I personally never used it, but it's good for dumb players , and trust me, not everyone who plays videogames are smart or good at puzzles, no matter how simple they are. However, we need rewards for those who can do it.
With things like that you get the impression that the developer doesn't have a lot of faith in their own design. Which when designing by massive committee as with yer typical AAA game is something that I can imagine happening.

I certainly would like to see more permanent consequences (to use a specific term) in games like the Bethesda Fallouts and yer Assassin's Creeds, but I'm also sure that a significant amount of players are less concerned with immersion; and at that budget you can't really afford to serve a niche market - which is basically the largest point of the issues of AAA games.

Personally, speaking of AssCreed, I'd like to see games like that - being very little challenge, very linear, lacking in consequence but with ever increasing scope; especially compared to the first two (which I still think are great) - condensed into something more focused and with more emergent gameplay possibilities. But large developers and publishers only seem to be able to go up and not down in terms of scale and spectacle with their IPs. Probably because for reasons of budget they're tied to shareholders etc etc businessmen in their suit and tie etc etc.

Nothing that hasn't been said before.
 

Hero in a half shell

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Reminds me of this:


Yes, I think most AAA game puzzles have gotten a lot easier, and there is a lot more hand holding, and it does make me annoyed since you usually get the coolest level designs and interaction from the strangest puzzles.

Getting a videogame used to be a real proper investment in time. It took me years to beat Super Mario Bros because of the strict timing and level knowledge needed to pass the higher levels. It took me a full year to complete Medal of Honor Frontline because - even though I played on easy - the difficulty wasn't linear, but increased as you progressed through the game. halo CE took almost 2 years!

The difficulty with those games wasn't necessarily tricky puzzles, but that you needed to be a certain skill level to get through the game even on the easiest difficulty: It increased enemy health, accuracy and numbers as the game progressed to make sure you were improving in your own accuracy, speed, and knowledge of the game/maps.
I completed both COD: Modern Warfare 2 and the Medal of Honor Reboot on hard difficulties in less than 6 hours each - in one session - the very first time I ever played those games, and neither had any levels as challenging as the later levels of Frontline or Halo CE.

It's good that developers are moving away from the old infamous 'Nintendo hard' logic puzzles that made no sense whatsoever or limited lives with insane stepbacks on death, but having some level of actual challenge would be nice.
 

Salus

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Pink Gregory said:
Personally, speaking of AssCreed, I'd like to see games like that - being very little challenge, very linear, lacking in consequence but with ever increasing scope; especially compared to the first two (which I still think are great) - condensed into something more focused and with more emergent gameplay possibilities. But large developers and publishers only seem to be able to go up and not down in terms of scale and spectacle with their IPs. Probably because for reasons of budget they're tied to shareholders etc etc businessmen in their suit and tie etc etc.

Nothing that hasn't been said before.
What kind of model would you suggest to foster the kind of games that pose thinking challenges?

Back in the 80's, games were made to be nigh-unbeatable, so players would continuously put coins in the arcade machine, which let them get just a little bit farther every time, but didn't stop them cold and make them lose their interest. (I hate this type of game by the way.)

This model somehow extended to the early consoles even though that model didn't make sense anymore, since you already paid for the game.

In the 90's lots of games were being designed as high quality front-loaded games, that is, you paid, you got the experience, and you told your friends about it. Patching after release was viewed as something to be avoided. You got a lot of solid, complete games like the point-and-click adventure games that weren't afraid to make it hard on you.

In the 2000's you got games being released half-finished and then patched to completion, relying on pre-order sales and game sales to provide the stimulus to get the last half done.

In the late 2000's/2010's you got the "DLC" model, where you include enough content to get players hooked, then sell the rest in installments, created on-the-fly as demand continues.

The indie model, being based on selling to niche markets, keeping development costs low and relying on word-of-mouth instead of media-blitz advertising like AAA titles do... So far it looks like this is where the "thinking games" have to be made for now, although these developers don't have the resources to include multiplayer or even co-op in their games, which are usually relegated to being a clever but simple yarn of a story that wraps up in a few hours.

I'm thinking, why can't we get a few real, live authors into the development rooms, and just let them loose on the lore and on making the world function as its own entity. Enough with the lazy backdrop worlds that exist only to say loudly "We are being true to the realities of pirate life and history in this game, that's something we take very seriously here at Ubisoft." Oh, is that so? I apologize, I must have played the wrong game.

It's easy to tell when a game isn't going to make you think, then power down your brain and just get the rest of it done at 20% capacity.
 

TrevHead

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I would love for devs to have different puzzles and similar obstacles for different difficulty modes.
 

Pink Gregory

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Salus said:
Well I was talking about gameplay possibilities more than anything, so I think you may have misinterpreted me. I'm not much of a lorehound, really something like Dishonored is enough for me, and I loved that, so...

Don't really know where the OLD GAMES GOOD NEW GAMES BAD came from just then; I'm not making any inferences about you, I'm just tired of that - I feel - reductive ideology.

It's just a matter of downgrading the scope and re-allocating the resources and expertise into a gameplay model that's not necessarily more repetitive, but a tightly focused system of a few concepts.

For example, Assassin's Creed. Probably an unpopular opinion, but I still regard the first one as the high watermark, although I also loved 2, dropped off after Brotherhood etc. Not a perfect game, but nothing is. Everything Brotherhood and such added I feel led to the decreasing enjoyment of the games by me. The traversing rooftops I liked, the counter-based and often overwhelming-for-one-man combat I liked, the simple yet engaging stealth elements I liked. There we go, three concepts.

Add on top of that the money/upgrades/a million gadgets/assassin's guild stuff and then you're losing my interest.

I suppose it's a matter of necessity. Now, I don't want to curtail ambition, because there are obvious exceptions; but when you approach these things, you think, 'did they really need to add so many features to make a decent sequel? Does Sleeping Dogs really need gunplay? Do Elder Scrolls games really need so many dull quests to pad out the length? Does any shooter ever need RPG elements when it's not Borderlands or a first person RPG?

Simple enough, I advocate focused design over feature creep. To me, allowing the kind of flexibility that's achieved through careful and thoughtful design as opposed to weight of features allows for this emergent gameplay that rewards planning, creativity and thought.
 

Salus

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Pink Gregory said:
Salus said:
Well I was talking about gameplay possibilities more than anything, so I think you may have misinterpreted me. I'm not much of a lorehound, really something like Dishonored is enough for me, and I loved that, so...

Don't really know where the OLD GAMES GOOD NEW GAMES BAD came from just then; I'm not making any inferences about you, I'm just tired of that - I feel - reductive ideology.

It's just a matter of downgrading the scope and re-allocating the resources and expertise into a gameplay model that's not necessarily more repetitive, but a tightly focused system of a few concepts.

For example, Assassin's Creed. Probably an unpopular opinion, but I still regard the first one as the high watermark, although I also loved 2, dropped off after Brotherhood etc. Not a perfect game, but nothing is. Everything Brotherhood and such added I feel led to the decreasing enjoyment of the games by me. The traversing rooftops I liked, the counter-based and often overwhelming-for-one-man combat I liked, the simple yet engaging stealth elements I liked. There we go, three concepts.

Add on top of that the money/upgrades/a million gadgets/assassin's guild stuff and then you're losing my interest.

I suppose it's a matter of necessity. Now, I don't want to curtail ambition, because there are obvious exceptions; but when you approach these things, you think, 'did they really need to add so many features to make a decent sequel? Does Sleeping Dogs really need gunplay? Do Elder Scrolls games really need so many dull quests to pad out the length? Does any shooter ever need RPG elements when it's not Borderlands or a first person RPG?

Simple enough, I advocate focused design over feature creep. To me, allowing the kind of flexibility that's achieved through careful and thoughtful design as opposed to weight of features allows for this emergent gameplay that rewards planning, creativity and thought.
I'm including lore in this but it's mainly gameplay. I find that when lore goes gameplay follows, strangely enough, I don't know what that means. Maybe talent leaves a sinking ship?

I also hold AC1 to be the best of the series, at least in gameplay. Hell, it was the only one where they trusted you to plan the assassinations. In the later games you could only plan out the optional mercenary contract sidequests, the story assassinations were all scripted. They wanted you to be in a particular spot, then a big elaborate cutscene, then the guy turns around, "now you can kill him."

AC2 I enjoyed for the atmosphere. The rest of the series devolved from there. Once Jesper Kyd left, the games went very bad.

I too believe "feature creep" is stifling games, I'm a staunch advocate on focusing on your core gameplay. Whenever a dev promoting their sequel starts spouting all the things they're adding to the game, I get a sinking feeling. I don't know the dynamics of keeping your investors pleased, but if THAT isn't it, could the developers be so shortsighted as to squander their additional funding on ridiculous additions like multiplayer in Bioshock or an elaborate character customization system? Why would they compartmentalize the improvements? The best developers (the ones I admire) stick to what they know and do it better and better, adding depth, not breadth.
 

Muspelheim

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It is a very fair point, and I felt very underwhelmed by the puzzles (unusually obtuse door handles) in Skyrim, too. But to throw them a bone, they did give a reason to the simplistic puzzles in the lore.

The thing is, the mechanisms in the old Nord barrows were not intended to keep living adventurers out, they were mainly intended to keep the Draugr locked inside. The locks are easy enough to guess for the living, allowing Nord priests and grave tenders to come and go, while the Draugr have lost their abilities to reason, and can't grasp how to work the mechanism. Owl-moth-bear is beyond their intelligence, for the most part.

It's still an obvious handwave put in by neccessity, but it is something, at least. It'd still have been better to make the puzzles a bit more in-depth, but I imagine it was commands from the marketing department. Presumably, a test group failed to solve a puzzle within one minute or so.
 

Alterego-X

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The thing about the Lowest Common Denominator, is that it doesn't mean dumbing down the game to the average user's level of knowledge, but about dumbing it down to the level of the overall userbase's shared knowledge.

The average Elder Scrolls player might be quite a smart person, competent at solving a number of high level puzzles. So is some other average Elder Scrolls player, who is competent at solving some other high level puzzles. And another average Elder Scrolls player. And another.

When they are put together as a group, it turns out that none of them can solve the majority of the puzzles designed for the other one.
 

ExtraDebit

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Do modern games underestimate player's intelligence? Absolutely, sometimes to a downright insulting level. I speaking of the tutorial of some of these games, "push forward to move forward", "when your health depleted you die", "duck to crawl under the hole" is a few examples.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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Modern AAA game design is dictated by the publishers who want to minimize risk and maximize profit. Unfortunately for people who consider themselves to be hardcore gamers, or real gamers depending on who you ask, developers have to take orders from the suits upstairs who care only about the bottom line. They think that clever games will scare away most people. And it's not about intelligence. It's about the attention span of an average working class citizen. Average person who plays video games doesn't want a challenge. They don't want to solve puzzles and think about the universe and whatnot. They want to relax. They take games casually.
 

Salus

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Charcharo said:
Well...
They OVERESTIMATE the average gamer. By a lot. No, I am serious.
If you only knew what I have seen on World of Tanks and its forums... the cosmic horror... the emptiness.
Oh my god, the World of Tanks forums... Hell does exist.

To be fair, a lot of the people there (even the most obnoxious) are very intelligent, just completely insane. Why a game about tanks has to generate so much elitism, loathing, hatred and vile obscenities is beyond me. I had to quit because people were so weird about that game.

Again, plenty of people who were good at the game (and it's a hard game), but probably some of the most despicable examples of gamers on the internet. Social services should intervene or something.
 

Someone Depressing

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It would have been nice if they had something like a seperate difficulty for puzzles and dialougue that you couldn't change (eg; if you picked easy-hard, battles would still be simple, but puzzles would be harder, for example) like Silent Hill used to do.

All in all, it's just "don't want those kids getting stuck in the beggining of the game", but they don't need to completely flip off.. well, anyone above the age of 9.
 

barbzilla

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Salus said:
Pink Gregory said:
Personally, speaking of AssCreed, I'd like to see games like that - being very little challenge, very linear, lacking in consequence but with ever increasing scope; especially compared to the first two (which I still think are great) - condensed into something more focused and with more emergent gameplay possibilities. But large developers and publishers only seem to be able to go up and not down in terms of scale and spectacle with their IPs. Probably because for reasons of budget they're tied to shareholders etc etc businessmen in their suit and tie etc etc.

Nothing that hasn't been said before.
What kind of model would you suggest to foster the kind of games that pose thinking challenges?

Back in the 80's, games were made to be nigh-unbeatable, so players would continuously put coins in the arcade machine, which let them get just a little bit farther every time, but didn't stop them cold and make them lose their interest. (I hate this type of game by the way.)

This model somehow extended to the early consoles even though that model didn't make sense anymore, since you already paid for the game.

In the 90's lots of games were being designed as high quality front-loaded games, that is, you paid, you got the experience, and you told your friends about it. Patching after release was viewed as something to be avoided. You got a lot of solid, complete games like the point-and-click adventure games that weren't afraid to make it hard on you.

In the 2000's you got games being released half-finished and then patched to completion, relying on pre-order sales and game sales to provide the stimulus to get the last half done.

In the late 2000's/2010's you got the "DLC" model, where you include enough content to get players hooked, then sell the rest in installments, created on-the-fly as demand continues.

The indie model, being based on selling to niche markets, keeping development costs low and relying on word-of-mouth instead of media-blitz advertising like AAA titles do... So far it looks like this is where the "thinking games" have to be made for now, although these developers don't have the resources to include multiplayer or even co-op in their games, which are usually relegated to being a clever but simple yarn of a story that wraps up in a few hours.

I'm thinking, why can't we get a few real, live authors into the development rooms, and just let them loose on the lore and on making the world function as its own entity. Enough with the lazy backdrop worlds that exist only to say loudly "We are being true to the realities of pirate life and history in this game, that's something we take very seriously here at Ubisoft." Oh, is that so? I apologize, I must have played the wrong game.

It's easy to tell when a game isn't going to make you think, then power down your brain and just get the rest of it done at 20% capacity.
The second to last paragraph (or last paragraph if we exclude the sentence at the end). I am quite honestly amazed that more game developers haven't hired P&P RPG designers for world design, character design, mechanical design, and just general writing. Especially when the few examples you hear of it being done, have been done to a fair level of success or higher. But, what should I expect in the day and age when a AAA game developer decided that they were at least qualified enough to write the end of a major trilogy themselves instead of hiring a professional author.

To the OP: Yes, I feel that games have been altered to adjust to the ever growing player base (and the ever growing need these publishers seem to have to make more and more money). I'm not going to go as far as to say I feel that it insults me, as I know I'm not the demographic they are thinking about when it was made, but I will say that it has limited my perspective on the number of games I feel inclined to purchase. Games in general have always been a gamble though, no matter what era you were in. I think Devs have just moved on to trying to take safe bets, and as such they end up restricting the design of the game in question.
 

kilenem

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I don't know if moderen games are easier or if Inavation has made things easier like things like more buttons and save files.
 

Racecarlock

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We get it, games shouldn't be playable by people who haven't been playing for 11 years already.

I don't like forced tutorials, but on the other hand puzzles which don't require 10 years of sherlock holmes detective training is something I'd prefer to being stuck at one puzzle for 6 hours.
 

Salus

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Racecarlock said:
We get it, games shouldn't be playable by people who haven't been playing for 11 years already.

I don't like forced tutorials, but on the other hand puzzles which don't require 10 years of sherlock holmes detective training is something I'd prefer to being stuck at one puzzle for 6 hours.
I'm not advocating for super-hard puzzles. I wouldn't mind a few as optional sidequests, but what I'm pointing out is these puzzles (like the Skyrim puzzle) are just sad, sad excuses for a puzzle that honestly make me wonder why they even put them in the game. It's like they're not even trying. For all Bethesda harps on about "passive storytelling" and "letting the world tell the story by itself" this puzzle is wrong on like 10 levels. Besides the points mentioned, how and why was a keystone pulled out and smashed into the ground? When they present Skyrim they're keen to point out skeletons holding a bottle and saying "we'll let the player figure out that little story," but there are so many instances where they just didn't care enough to even think twice about what they were doing when they were designing something. Like the claw puzzle. "You hold the key in the palm of your hand. Huh, I never figured out what that meant. Anyway, here you go, just an old relic, not important."

As a side note, I have no problem with forced tutorials. Honestly I'm not even a puzzle guy, I don't like solving too many puzzles. But jeez, if you're going to include them, at least don't shatter the immersion with them.