Do you think The Witcher series is "mature?"

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The Wykydtron

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BrotherRool said:
The Wykydtron said:
Oh PLEASE tell me that's not in Witcher 2? That's just so, so bad if so :(
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Y'know the primary colour scheme in Persona 4? Guess? It's bright fucking yellow.
It's Witcher 1. -Also now I really want to play Persona
I think i'll join you. *boots up PS2* LET'S DO THIS!

Is it a first playthough or a re-run for you? I couldn't tell. I'll stop myself here before I end up writing an essay called Why Persona 4 is the Greated Game Ever Made. It randomly happens I swear XD
 

BrotherRool

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The Wykydtron said:
I think i'll join you. *boots up PS2* LET'S DO THIS!

Is it a first playthough or a re-run for you? I couldn't tell. I'll stop myself here before I end up writing an essay called Why Persona 4 is the Greated Game Ever Made. It randomly happens I swear XD
I still haven't had the chance of a first playthrough :( My PS2 KO'ed and I'm waiting for it to be released in the European PSN


EDIT: Wikipedia now says it's going to be released in Europe on the 22nd. This is going to be so good. My entire easter holiday is going to be spent on this one game now
 

mooncalf

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Mature? Only in the sense that you probably shouldn't show it to the little'uns. But it's an original, ambitious continuity that is trying hard to do right by people who don't want the cuss words bleeped, the nudey bits blurred or the choices black and white.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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They're mature in the sense that the plot is about political intrigue and deals with difficult topics such as racism, terrorism and political corruption, puts an emphasis on the consequences of player decisions, and includes ambiguous moral choices that are more about ideology than good and evil.

They're not very mature in their approach to sex.

What you encountered was just a standard fanboy who's a little insecure about the fact that there are serious RPGs made by developers who aren't Bioware. You shouldn't really trust anything said on the Bioware forums. Even Bioware's own staff thinks it's a toxic wasteland.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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JoesshittyOs said:
I recently bought the Witcher 2, and I have to say... I wouldn't call it a mature game.

I kinda set it down because it really wasn't holding my attention and was terribly written. Whoever wrote some of the dialogue options I feel really has never actually had a conversation with a woman before. It was a tad bit misogynistic.
Bwuh?

I think I summarised my response adequately and now I'm just trying to avoid a low content warning, but seriously - I'm interested in hearing what specifically put you off. The Witcher games are a bit sex-obsessed, but I'd never go so far as to call it misogynistic.
 

Batman

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Zhukov said:
Yes, what you encountered was just garden variety fanboyism. See, after Dragon Age 2 went down the gurgler and The Witcher 2 was a hit, there were some people hailing CDProject Red (developers of The Witcher) as "the new Bioware" or "like Bioware but better". To a hardcore Bioware fan, this would be akin to a needle under the fingernails, so they respond by hating on The Witcher games with all their might.

As for whether or the Wither games are mature.... hahahahahaaa... nope.

The first one was laughably immature. Surely we haven't forgotten the Gotta Bonk 'em All collectable sex cards.

The second one was a bit better. But it's the kind of maturity you'd expect from a 14 year old boy who wears his father's pants, desperately shaves his bumfluff and swears loudly in the schoolyard. "Hey, hey, have you noticed how totally mature I am? Here, have some more cussing! Ohh, and I'm dark too. See, here's implied rape scene number four!"
Hang on a sec here Zhukov I need to call you out on something. A random guy on the Bioware forums calls the Witcher games immature, which according to you are grounds for being a fanboy (and all the negative connotations that term carries with it). You then turn around and say "Yep, the Witcher games are pretty immature". Care to explain this morsel of double standardism? Or do you have something against Bbioware fans in general? :(

Sorry about going off rails here op but if you want my opinion: just enjoy a game if you find it entertaining, who cares if game X is mature or game Y is more grounded in reality at the end of the day it's a piece of entertainment and different people have different ideas of what's entertaining or meaningful for them. This dick swinging contest of game A was totally better than game D, and you must play game Z or your a moron gets nobody nowhere. Just a lot of butthurt comments and bitter rebukes.
wow... that argument degenerated fast.
 

endtherapture

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I don't get why people say the game is sexist?

It's full of really strong female characters who drive the plot forward: Triss, Ves, Philippa, Sile and Saskia?

It's better than the strange female characters in DA2 who only exist for fanservice such as Isabella and Merrill.

Batman said:
Sorry about going off rails here op but if you want my opinion: just enjoy a game if you find it entertaining, who cares if game X is mature or game Y is more grounded in reality at the end of the day it's a piece of entertainment and different people have different ideas of what's entertaining or meaningful for them. This dick swinging contest of game A was totally better than game D, and you must play game Z or your a moron gets nobody nowhere. Just a lot of butthurt comments and bitter rebukes.
wow... that argument degenerated fast.
What I saw in the forums were people discussing the DA games just completely writing off TW2 as "sexist" and "immature" and "mysogenist", when in fact DA could learn a lot from that series of games.
 

Legion

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BrotherRool said:
But on the subject of rape I would like to just add a reason why using it lightly like this isn't such a good idea.

Rape is such a violent and torturous act that it can leave it#s victims with scars for years to come as a normal response to something so abnormal and cruel. In particular, for some people, it being mentioned in media like this, or portrayed or described in particular circumstances or lights can trigger a flashback. So whenever you include rape in a fictional work, there's always going to be a chance that it#s going to cause someone playing your game/watching your film/reading your book to reexperience the feeling of being raped.
While I understand the sentiment, doesn't that mean you oppose modern military shooters in case they cause a reaction for a soldier suffering from Shell Shock/PTSD?

Should we have our media not portray anything that could negatively impact somebody suffering from an extreme level of trauma?

I don't see how one can be justified and the other not. Like how people claim that "Boobs promotes sexism" but very few will support the idea that "Violent games promote killing."

It just seems somewhat hypocritical to me.
 

Batman

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endtherapture said:
What I saw in the forums were people discussing the DA games just completely writing off TW2 as "sexist" and "immature" and "mysogenist", when in fact DA could learn a lot from that series of games.
Even if DA could learn a thing or two from the Witcher series would this necessarily be a good thing? Isn't the fact that they both present different takes on standard fantasy what drew in the fans in the first place? If the fans of franchise 'G' dislike franchise 'H' why must franchise 'H' be forced on them? The DA fans can turn around and say that the Witcher series can learn a thing or two from Dragon Age and they would be justified in doing so. Just as justified as you were with your statement.
Perspective is a ***** to deal with, eh ;)
 

BrotherRool

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Legion said:
While I understand the sentiment, doesn't that mean you oppose modern military shooters in case they cause a reaction for a soldier suffering from Shell Shock/PTSD?

Should we have our media not portray anything that could negatively impact somebody suffering from an extreme level of trauma?

I don't see how one can be justified and the other not. Like how people claim that "Boobs promotes sexism" but very few will support the idea that "Violent games promote killing."

It just seems somewhat hypocritical to me.
The first thing I'd reach for is that MMS' are more explicit about what their content is. No-one is going to be ambushed by the fact that soldiers get shot in CoD, whereas even I would be loathe to describe the Witcher as a rape simulator =D

On the other hand, I did think of violent assault and I have no answers to that as far as PTSD

On the bigger issues of rape/versus killing (because in every form of fiction the former is treated a lot worse than the latter and I imagine they're cues which you've probably experienced to, although intellectually you may not agree with it. Think of how villains are portrayed when they rape someone, versus straight up killing. Or the way revenge flicks contain violent death and sometimes even mild torture but almost never has the sympathetic protagonist raped someone. Or the Penny Arcade rape scandal, versus it's normal killery content). I think the big thing is that there is really no upside to rape. There are a lot of reasons, debatable but there, we've decided as a society it's acceptable to kill people. And war is generally not disapproved of as an end to a means, which is why we fund it and train people to do it. Whereas very few societies approve of rape as a means to an end. And rape almost exclusively involves a defenceless victim and a senseless crime, whereas the soldiers who die, on the first-world countries side at least, are normally in a superior position, bravely laying down their lives for something. I'm still thinking about it, it's not something I've fully understood and these are my best guesses so far, but thats the way I feel.

I kinda wish people think hard before they include sexual violation, maybe because, unlike death and violence, it#s something that's very easy to avoid if you don't want to tackle it head on. But I'm not calling for censorship. I do think we can agree that taking a dark and painful theme and using it in a superficial manner because you want your game to be recognised as dark and painful isn't a sign of maturity in a game, and is something we often look down upon. It's like 90's comics, instead of embracing more complex themes, they've substituted the same simple campy plots with blood instead of sparkles and to my mind this is definitely how the Witcher uses rape (although not at all how it uses politics and racism. Hence this weird thing where half the game is legitimately mature and half the game is aping maturity in a juvenile fashion). I really don't think many people would describe the Witcher as exploring the difficult situation of rape in any kind of deep way.

...so in conclusion. I guess the main thing is, because you can not have a rape scene in an action film fairly easily without impacting the overall enjoyment of the product, I prefer it when the directors only choose to include it for a very deliberate and important reason because it's an easy way of avoiding some people pain and it's one less subject to be mistreated, with very little advantage to using it in a superficial way (without being exploitative), whereas with death and war it's much harder to avoid them without changing the action film nature, so its more reasonable to want to include it. I think that#s probably why I feel the way I do
 

endtherapture

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Batman said:
endtherapture said:
What I saw in the forums were people discussing the DA games just completely writing off TW2 as "sexist" and "immature" and "mysogenist", when in fact DA could learn a lot from that series of games.
Even if DA could learn a thing or two from the Witcher series would this necessarily be a good thing? Isn't the fact that they both present different takes on standard fantasy what drew in the fans in the first place? If the fans of franchise 'G' dislike franchise 'H' why must franchise 'H' be forced on them? The DA fans can turn around and say that the Witcher series can learn a thing or two from Dragon Age and they would be justified in doing so. Just as justified as you were with your statement.
Perspective is a ***** to deal with, eh ;)
The thing is, I don't instantly address Dragon Age as awful. I think TW could've don with developing Triss, Zoltan and Dandelion more, maybe have some personal quests, in the way, that DA does.

DA was supposed to be dark fantasy in the vein of A Song of Ice and Fire - morally ambigious, dark and forboding - Bioware said this themselves - they could take a lot of inspiration and ideas from TW because it is that dark setting that DA tried and failed to be.
 

Gearhead mk2

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It's not mature, it's just got a high age rating. Spec Ops: The Line is mature. The Dark Knight is mature. Avatar: The Last Airbender is mature. Why? Because they dive into serious isusses with good writing and intelligence. The Witcher is just a porno with a thin layer of extreme bloodshed, generic dark fantasy, awful gameplay and glorious PC master race propoganda thrown over it.
 

Gearhead mk2

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MacNille said:
Let me guess. You have not played it right? It is so much more then just a "porno" as you describe it.
I have not played it, but the porno stands out from what I've seen about it because it's the only thing in the game worth remebering. Everything else I've seen or heard about the series makes it seem like boring, generic, grimdark fantasy. I admit trying to splice together some stuff was cool (like the main character being genetically altered by alchemy) but if I wanted a dark fantasy setting with a mixture of tech and magic and without a single likeble character, I'd just go play Warhammer 40K or something. The fact that The Witcher gets so much hype from PC elitest snobs is just icing on the cake.
 

voltair27

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Well, if I were to compare the Dragon Age Series to the Witcher series, I'd say that The Witcher series is a hell of a lot more "mature" in that it deals with darker themes and such in a very straightforward manner. The gray morality it enforces makes it a lot darker than Dragon Age but Dragon Age was much more "fantastical" on the whole. However, DA2 tried to really enforce their themes in a pretty ineffective manner, so nothing really seemed to matter to me. The Witcher makes you look at the world as it relates to Geralt and that results in you seriously considering your choices rather than choosing the default "good" choice.

While neither series is entirely "mature," The Witcher is on the whole more "mature."

EDIT: In a sense, The Witcher is a more realistic portrayal of the fantasy genre. Swearing, sex, and such are seen in real life and your average person either takes it with a grain of salt or makes jokes. Dragon Age is serious and very clean cut. It has themes it wants to push but it doesn't do it in a very realistic fashion. Dragon Age feels like High Fantasy while The Witcher feels like Dark Fantasy.
 

voltair27

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Gearhead mk2 said:
MacNille said:
Let me guess. You have not played it right? It is so much more then just a "porno" as you describe it.
I have not played it, but the porno stands out from what I've seen about it because it's the only thing in the game worth remebering. Everything else I've seen or heard about the series makes it seem like boring, generic, grimdark fantasy. I admit trying to splice together some stuff was cool (like the main character being genetically altered by alchemy) but if I wanted a dark fantasy setting with a mixture of tech and magic and without a single likeble character, I'd just go play Warhammer 40K or something. The fact that The Witcher gets so much hype from PC elitest snobs is just icing on the cake.
If you haven't played it then your opinion has no weight whatsoever.

And The Witcher is NOTHING like 40K. If you had played it, you would know that.
 

BloatedGuppy

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The Madman said:
FINALLY someone else that's familiar with Scott Lynch. It's been getting damned frustrating how little known he is despite being such an amazing author. He deserves more attention.
Lynch is probably my least favorite of my most favorite branch of fantasy...that being aggressively grey-scale low fantasy. I prefer Martin's obsessive world building (although he's starting to get lost in his own details) and Abercrombie's verve and wit to Lynch's floral prose. Still...good books. Better than most.

Bara_no_Hime said:
Many people who dislike fantastic elements in stories prefer Low Fantasy because it doesn't require as much suspension of disbelief. Because it is less fantastic and often more bloody and gritty, many people consider it more "mature".

However, like with all things, maturity and quality have nothing to do with genre. Some people pretend that they do because they want to seem mature while enjoying the things that they enjoy, and they want to make fun of people who enjoy what they don't enjoy, but that is just people being pretentious jerks and has nothing to do with the quality of the actual work being looked at.
I'll generally agree with this, with the caveat that it is my experience with low fantasy that it tends to (not universally, but tends to) tackle more "adult" themes and plot elements than high fantasy, which seems to routinely fall into the honey trap of plucky heroes vs ultimate evil. It's very rare to find high fantasy that doesn't aggressively ape Tolkien, as well, making it a highly incestuous sub genre.

The problem with "mature" is that it's something of a value judgment, and thus highly subjective. While I don't think the politics and dark worlds of games like The Witcher or books like GoT would appeal to the very young (hence the "adult" tag), magic and flights of fantasy have an ageless appeal. When I dismiss a game like Dragon Age as being for young adults, it's not the spells and orcs doing it, it's the binary morality, Boy's Own Adventure plotting and PG-13 presentation. In fairness to Dragon Age, it does take some wild stabs at (extremely broad) racism and prejudice metaphors, but it has difficulty weaving them into the subtext, and unlike the Witcher it's pretty clear about whom it considers to be on the side of the angels.

Gearhead mk2 said:
I have not played it, but the porno stands out from what I've seen about it because it's the only thing in the game worth remebering. Everything else I've seen or heard about the series makes it seem like boring, generic, grimdark fantasy. I admit trying to splice together some stuff was cool (like the main character being genetically altered by alchemy) but if I wanted a dark fantasy setting with a mixture of tech and magic and without a single likeble character, I'd just go play Warhammer 40K or something. The fact that The Witcher gets so much hype from PC elitest snobs is just icing on the cake.
Having elaborate opinions on games you've never played, shows you've never watched, books you've never read, etc, is probably something you want to keep to yourself. It doesn't reflect well on you, is what I'm saying.

Neither does the axe you are grinding about PC gamers, while we're on the topic.
 

oRevanchisto

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BrotherRool said:
The Witcher isn't mature in terms of sex, women and NPC dialogue. In fact, it's incredibly immature and half the dialogue has been written by a 13 year old. There's a whole gameplay mechanic that would give people who know what a female is migraine's just thinking about the design of it.

'I couldn't sleep last night over the sound of my neighbour beating his wife' as NPC dialoge is something that belongs in Saints Row, it is the purple dildo of maturity and is only fitting in a game which doesn't understand the words it's using.


However I think once you get over the fact the writers have giggling fits whenever they hear the word 'whore', I think the politics and grey morality is fairly mature. Overall there was too much juvenile crud for me, but fantasy is often famously airy fairy and bringing in some grit is a gesture I can understand a lot of people getting behind. And the racism stuff was done pretty well.


So not Planescape: Torment, and pretty darn juvenile in some aspects, but a decent job in others
Pretty much this. There is this tendency for people to believe that "Mature" means dark and a lot of sex, Game of Thrones for example has this same idea. But that is not something that makes a game or story "Mature", it's all about the subject matter. Dealing with the various political factions and the subject of racism towards non-humans is what makes the game mature, someone shouting out "whore" or showing their titties is not.

Dragon Age: Origins for example is a mature story and the way BioWare deals with relationships is also very mature, and yet they dont have to have constant cursing or nudity to show that they are a "big boy" game. Now, I'm not saying a game can't have cursing and nudity and still be considered good and serious but it has to be within context. Showing off nudity or having lots of cursing just for the sake of having it doesnt make the game any more mature, it just comes off as some little kids idea of "mature".
 

Gearhead mk2

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voltair27 said:
If you haven't played it then your opinion has no weight whatsoever.
No. If I hadn't studied it, then my opinion would have no weight whatsoever. I don't just blindly hate on stuff. If I hear something that piques my interest, for better or worse, I investigate it. Even for stuff tht evryone and their mother knows is bad, like Twilight, I always look it up before I start praising/raging. Like I said, there are some aspects of it The Witcher I like, but from what I've seen of it the series as a whole comes off as fairly pretentious when it's main claims to maturity seem to be constant swearing, generic dark fantasy and a sex card collecting minigame as opposed to anything actually deep.
 

Legion

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BrotherRool said:
Hmmm, that's very well put, and I can see your point. I can see where you are coming from, and I more or less agree on all the points you made.

That's not to say that I think censorship is a good idea, but I can certainly agree that people should think deeply before including things such as rape in their fiction, and I am completely against the idea of including it purely for the case of trying to be dark and edgy.

I do feel that sometimes, when it comes to sexual matters people tend to see what they want to see though. For example I was flicking through an Xbox magazine today and came across their article on the new Tomb Raider game. They showed a picture of Lara Croft climbing a tower and the caption underneath sarcastically said "Nope. There's nothing phallic about this at all..." which I personally felt was ridiculous. Nobody thinks it's sexual when it's Ezio in Assassins Creed, or Jason Brody in Farcry 3, but as it's a female, it's "got" to be a sexual innuendo.

As for how this relates to rape or sexual violence, I think some people see it to be used as a tool to be "dark" in games even when it isn't. Nobody seems to think The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo has rape for the sake of it, but games seem to have this almost unique criticism where serious issues are automatically assumed to be controversial for shock value rather than adding to the story itself.