Do you think The Witcher series is "mature?"

[TheRookie8]

I would propose that maturity is tightly interwoven with how much a game is willing to commit to the seriousness of its own world. If that is the case, then I find that while both games have very mature elements (a politically motivated plot, characters with believable personalities and motivations), both also suffer from immature elements, albeit in different ways.

For "The Witcher" series, my problem is in the NPC's. With consideration of the the medieval backdrop where the game takes place, I find too often that the majority of the NPC's (human, mostly) are bumbling, immature fools. The world "plough" as a sexual expletive is used so often that I think I'm watching an episode of Deadwood. BUT, and I stress, BUT...this is not enough to call the entire game "immature". Everything fits into the context, so I would call "The Witcher" series very mature (aside from "lesbomancy").

For "Dragon Age", I find the NPC's more believable by comparison. They're focused less on being assholes and more focused on specific tasks (a balance between rationality and irrationality). There was a little too much focus on sexual exploits in the second game, but the first handled sex tastefully (albeit, with more clothes). My problem is that the violence in "Dragon Age" is immature (it is). The actual gameplay was fine, but the bloodstains and the impossible feats of athleticism reduced the emotional impact of the violence. But these elements are never addressed, as if the characters refuse to acknowledge it, or it's some kind of joke we, the player, aren't in on. Aside from that, I still find "Dragon Age" very mature for its thematic elements (aside from "apostitutes")

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

I'm a pretty big fan of the series myself and usually cite it as an example of a "Game for Grown Ups," so I would say I'm definitely in the camp of it being fairly mature as opposed to... childish? Nah, Juvenile... like a Fart Joke... that's the opposite number there isn't it. But at the same time a lot of the mature nature of the game may have come from the fact that I played my Geralt as quite straight arrow, he didn't really bang anyone but Triss, treated women as equals and frowned on most of the sexist douche-bags in the rest of the world.

Spoiler

I let Roche kill Hensalt because he's a monstrous rapist, for example

But the fact that the game lets you make a lot of those choices makes its maturity variable I guess.

 

[Milanezi]

Yes and no. For the western audience, and maybe oriental audiences, it is. It doesn't shy away from discussing rape with a certain disdain because, sadly, it's the sorta shit that simply happens in a medieval scenario (fantasy as it is), it totally adores the culture of drinking shitloads of alcohol, it has drugs being used in a "common way"instead of the ususla "HEY! DRUGS! SEE! DRUGS! I'M MATURE I DO DRUGS" we usually see, it has nudity, profanity, sex, the mythology itself is pretty brutal.
BUT, the game is from Poland, it draws from THEIR culture, which is similar to Russian culture, it merely reflects their society, which is, with all due respect, darker than what we're used to, they don't really see naked women as something to be horrified about, same with sex, and drinking alcohol is something sorta natural, it's not about getting drunk and retarded, they're just used to that, and scandinavian mythology as a whole... Well, that's a matter of its own, it's very rich, very dark, and extremely complex. So, with a few exceptions, such as rape and profanity, there's a lot of "mature" that is simply "Eastern Culture", but to us westerners, it causes a shock, so much so that some people don't feel bothered by the subjects themselves, but fail to grasp the mood of the game and quit it. Play Metro, you'll see an underlying tone to it, in terms of mood and character behavior that is similar to The Witcher.
I believe it's similar to some Western countries, such s USA and Brazil being sorta cool with guns in games (forget the late controversy) but not allowing nudity at all, while western Europe has a deep hatred for even plastic guns in games and is totally cool with the nudity lol It's culture, it doesn't change easy, and sometimes it causes misunderstandings... Okay, many times...

 

[BoTTeNBReKeR]

I cannot quite grasp why you guys are soo obsessed with having strong female characters and claiming the game is mysoginistic. Ofcourse it's mysoginistic. It's supposed to be! It's clearly based on central/western Europe during the late medieval period. Guess what? Women were nobodies back then but breeding machines or nuns. Yet you guys can't seem to grasp the fact this game does not want to have equality between genders cause it would not fit the setting.

 

[mateushac]

Oh right so it's totally impossible that they could approach things in different ways. Because there has never been games like that...gotcha.

Something tells me you would just feel all grouchy if we could play as Triss. It's meant to be YOUR game after all.

I'm really sorry for coming into the discussion out of nowhere, but how do you expect a game to tell Geralt's story (it's called The Witcher, after all) and at the same time let you play Triss?

I guess we should follow Skyrim's cue and dump the plot in order to make it possible for you to play a character devoid of personality, backstory and even gender. (Seriously, if you play it in 1st person, you won't even know you're a female. I don't believe they even use gender specific pronouns, such as "she")

Frankly, I wouldn't mind them making a game about Triss (Granted your powers would need to be nerfed. The girl is a monster!). What I don't understand is why The Witcher 1 and 2 are inherently sexist just because the protagonist is Geralt.

Your argument is almost like saying Batman is sexist because it doesn't have Catwoman as the protagonist. (good news, they have a catwoman movie out there)

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I didn't actually check if you changed it, if you didn't, no need to do so now. And for what it's worth, I didn't bother reporting you. (Still not that sensitive.)

Oh...I changed it. Worry not.

(Oh, by the way, I can't resist adding this - can you guys see why I went out all guns blazing at Moonlight from the get go now? Because this is the exact way she has always acted in any Witcher thread she has shown up in. I'll admit it, I'm way easier to piss off than most people and when I'm pissed off, it shows, and that's my problem, but I think my attitude might be slightly more understandable now.)

It does indeed seem to be a contentious issue for her. I'm hesitant to pile on as I just spent 2 pages coming to a truce with her, but she does have an axe to grind with the series, there's no question.

Of course, CD Projekt is partly to blame for putting those goddam cards into the first game. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and all that.

Any people from Eastern Europe up in this *****? I'd like to hear their input on this.

My girlfriend is Polish (more Canadian really, but born in Poland, and her family is VERY Polish) and there's definitely a culture divide there. This is the country that gave us the Decalogue, after all. I don't think Eastern European/Russian culture is QUITE as grim as the western perception of it (which is downright comical), but they're definitely a little more...frank...about certain things.

She loved The Witcher 2, btw, although it took some wrangling to get her to try it after the card collection fiasco from the first game.

 

[A Weakgeek]

Yes and no. For the western audience, and maybe oriental audiences, it is. It doesn't shy away from discussing rape with a certain disdain because, sadly, it's the sorta shit that simply happens in a medieval scenario (fantasy as it is), it totally adores the culture of drinking shitloads of alcohol, it has drugs being used in a "common way"instead of the ususla "HEY! DRUGS! SEE! DRUGS! I'M MATURE I DO DRUGS" we usually see, it has nudity, profanity, sex, the mythology itself is pretty brutal.
BUT, the game is from Poland, it draws from THEIR culture, which is similar to Russian culture, it merely reflects their society, which is, with all due respect, darker than what we're used to, they don't really see naked women as something to be horrified about, same with sex, and drinking alcohol is something sorta natural, it's not about getting drunk and retarded, they're just used to that, and scandinavian mythology as a whole... Well, that's a matter of its own, it's very rich, very dark, and extremely complex. So, with a few exceptions, such as rape and profanity, there's a lot of "mature" that is simply "Eastern Culture", but to us westerners, it causes a shock, so much so that some people don't feel bothered by the subjects themselves, but fail to grasp the mood of the game and quit it. Play Metro, you'll see an underlying tone to it, in terms of mood and character behavior that is similar to The Witcher.
I believe it's similar to some Western countries, such s USA and Brazil being sorta cool with guns in games (forget the late controversy) but not allowing nudity at all, while western Europe has a deep hatred for even plastic guns in games and is totally cool with the nudity lol It's culture, it doesn't change easy, and sometimes it causes misunderstandings... Okay, many times...

This guy has an interesting point.

Any people from Eastern Europe up in this *****? I'd like to hear their input on this.

While being from finland, which is a much more western country culturally than Poland or Russia, I can still say nudity and ESPECIALLY consumption of alcohol is alot more natural and has less of a shock factor here than it seems to have in good ol 'merica.

 

[Seneschal]

I'd say it's both mature and immature.

As was previously mentioned, both The Witcher and Game of Thrones occasionally like to show some skin purely for the sake of titillation or marketing. But, honestly, both series are quite tame, and much of the nudity is justified, e.g. establishing the relationship between Triss and Geralt as intimate, as opposed to the flirtatious-friends-thing that they had in the first Witcher.

As for maturity, the Witcher is "low fantasy" because it has a relatively subdued, pragmatic approach to fantasy tropes; all that is "fantastical" is exploited or monetized, there's racism, xenophobia, class struggle, moral ambiguity, and a main character that's actually progressive and more open-minded than most, but because of the world he inhabits, he's become a bit misanthropic and opportunistic. It's why I wouldn't really compare it to Dragon Age - it's like comparing Star Wars to Asimov's Foundation series.

In addition, The Witcher 2 in particular has many plot-central and well-developed female characters (ok, all are sorceress except Saskia, but that's merely the easiest way for a woman to become a big-league player in the setting, and the plot tends to revolve around big-leaguers struggling for power).

 

[Zeldias]

I don't think so, but I think of "mature" as being something interesting, thought-provoking, etc; basically something making interesting commentary on a topic. Shutter Island was mature, Yellow Back Radio Broke-Down was mature, Spec Ops: The Line was mature (or to use a less constantly abused example of maturity in gaming, Catherine, Antichamber, or maybe Bastion). The Witcher is dark, but dark isn't mature. That's not to say the series doesn't have it's moments of maturity, but overall, I just don't find the Witcher to be thoughtful or challenging enough for me to call it mature.

What does the Witcher do that is challenging? I mean, is there anything in the Witcher that makes demands of the player, forces some examination (self or otherwise), or does it just lull you into solipsism with the same old medieval European setting? I'm not saying the Witcher is a bad series; I like it a whole lot. But it's definitely not what I'd call mature; it doesn't force me to think, it coaxes me to accept. And that's also not to say the story is bad or anything, but I just don't think it's pushing anyone to think of anything differently.

A work being serious, or dark, or low fantasy, or whatever doesn't make it mature to me. It needs to express some wisdom, make me uncomfortable or reveal something to me that I hadn't considered or get me to look at something in a different way. It's for that same reason that Dragon Age is so immature to me: that shit is medieval X-Men (mages are mutants, Templars are sentinels, and I've just seen it all before). The Witcher isn't quite like that, but it's still not doing anything thoughtful or interesting. It's just being a good game, which is fine, but not what I'd call mature.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's a damn shame too, because the first game had so much to offer in terms of story and characters. A lot of people just called it quits when they saw or heard about the sex cards (no wonder) and missed the rest.

Although to be fair, even if the majority had gotten past the sex cards, theres still that fucking second chapter to get past before shit gets real.

There were a lot of interesting story/tone elements in the first game that got utterly lost for me, because I was so infuriated with the clunky game play. I finally got fed up of wrangling the awkward interface and listening to the excruciating voice acting and dubiously translated dialogue and said "fuck it". It's a pity, because it sounds like it stepped up its game towards the end.

The cards didn't fully put me off it, but I do recall saying "Seriously?" aloud when they first appeared.

 

[Darken12]

It has mature and immature elements. To me, the immature elements completely sink the work to "not mature" category, but I understand how others might value the mature elements more.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Of course, CD Projekt is partly to blame for putting those goddam cards into the first game. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and all that.

I know why the cards would have put some players off, but to be honest I don't hold it against CD Projekt at all. They delivered a really good game, supported it after release free of charge, and never bogged me down with DRM.

As far as I'm concerned, the sex cards are a silly little thing that CD Projekt put in the first game as a joke and a nod to the novels. They said themselves that they didn't think it would offend anyone, and in fact most of the scandal at the time was about the naked boobs and not the objectification.

They still think it's about the boobs - just recently I read an interview [http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/02/02/cdp-on-cyberpunks-trailer-social-commentary-in-games/] on Rock Paper Shotgun where Nathan Grayson really heavily pushed the question of whether the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y9711pvZkc] was sexist because it had a lady in her underpants, and the poor guy he was interviewing thought the scandal was about American prudishness and not the relatively recent obessession with gender equality.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I know why the cards would have put some players off, but to be honest I don't hold it against CD Projekt at all. They delivered a really good game, supported it after release free of charge, and never bogged me down with DRM.

Well. It was a game, anyway. In fairness to The Witcher I did come to it fairly late in its life. In fairness to me, though, I was playing the EE, and I found the dialogue/acting hard to take, and apparently it was much improved.

As far as I'm concerned, the sex cards are a silly little thing that CD Projekt put in the first game as a joke and a nod to the novels. They said themselves that they didn't think it would offend anyone, and in fact most of the scandal at the time was about the naked boobs and not the objectification.

I don't know. It was...what's the best word for it...skeevy? It felt like a definite misread, at least for a NA audience. I don't know that I was offended so much as deeply, deeply embarrassed to be playing it at that point.

They still think it's about the boobs - just recently I read an interview [http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/02/02/cdp-on-cyberpunks-trailer-social-commentary-in-games/] on Rock Paper Shotgun where Nathan Grayson really heavily pushed the question of whether the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y9711pvZkc] was sexist because it had a lady in her underpants, and the poor guy he was interviewing thought the scandal was about American prudishness and not the relatively recent obessession with gender equality.

I have no issue with either gender in their underpants. As long as we don't run around fucking lady cyborgs with the express intention of checking them off our in-game list and getting a cheesecake titty shot of them for our stash.

Or maybe they can release that in the form of Day One always online DLC and create the perfect storm of controversy.

 

[Vegosiux]

Or maybe they can release that in the form of Day One always online DLC and create the perfect storm of controversy.

I'd pay to see that!

I mean, I'd pay to see that happen. I would not actually pay for the said DLC, just for the commotion it would provoke.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Your opinions?

Jerks will be jerks. The only proper response when immature people begin to throw around their opinion on what is or isn't mature is to laugh at them. I believe there are two hallmarks to maturity. The first is to accept that not all people will share your opinion, and the second is to put the needs of the family and friends that are good to you before what you want but do not need yourself.

Neither of which as you'll notice are particularly applicable to video games.