Doctor Who has lost something very special.

TimeLord

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Warning, spoilers for Series 9 episode 1 below

As is evident by my name and general cosplay attitude, I love Doctor Who, I really do. But it's getting harder and harder to hang on to a series (or rather a writer) that to an outside observer, hates his own audience and would rather just throw darts at a wall full of post-it notes to make an over aching storyline.

Now that seems harsh, and maybe it is slightly. Let's go back to the most famous episode Moffat has ever written, 'Blink'. The stakes are high, the Doctor is a background character as best and irrelevant until the final 10 minutes at worst. The human characters are interesting, the Weeping Angels are fresh, something different and a genuine threat to everyone involved. Awesome, like everyone else, I love 'Blink'.
Then RTD left and I started hyperventilating over the next 5 years.

My main points of contention with 'The Magician's Apprentice' boil down to this;

How is Davros even alive? That explosion in season 4 was fairly big. Ok, teleportation, escape pod, etc I can get behind that, but for god sake explain it to the audience how he still lives.

How is Missy alive? "Was dead, now I'm not, get over it"



Seriously. The explanation behind two major characters returning when one flat out dies on screen is "They are alive now, deal with it"? I could maybe go along with it if the Doctor cared, but he doesn't. He neither asks Missy or Davros how they survived. He just accepts it and moves on.
Beyond those issues, the original reason for this episodes characters coming together is the Doctor dying. Again.
You can't just keep saying it and expect it to mean the same thing is did 5 years ago. It doesn't work like that. Moffat can write single episodes great, but can't write an over-arching plot to save his life.

That's not to say I would write off the entire episode, the second half is glorious Doctor-ness. Medieval arena, creepy snake creature, rebuilding of Skaro and the actual Daleks themselves are brilliant. They don't hold back before flat out killing Clara, Missy and making firewood out of the TARDIS. Brilliant! Credible threat restored. I'm even looking forward to how the Doctor travels back to the young Davros without the TARDIS or a vortex manipulator. Part of me know that young Davros isn't going to die. It complicates too many thing to kill him and erase everything he's done. It would take out the Daleks, his threats to every previous Doctor and the general mayhem the Daleks have caused over the years. Even the validity of the Time War itself. On top of that, I loved the call back to 'Genesis of the Daleks'; "If someone who knew the future pointed out a child to you and told you that child would grow up totally evil, to be a ruthless dictator who would destroy millions of lives... could you then kill that child?"
It's all very well to raise the stakes by killing off a character such as Davros in this way. But I don't think Moffat has the guts to pull the trigger. Or maybe he does, and then where would we be?

In general I feel Doctor Who has lost something very special since it began. Things change; writers, actors, the BBC. But watching an episode today compared to series 1s 'Dalek' or 'The Parting of the Ways', I don't feel the same emotion in the characters, the thought put in the story or the excitement to sit down and watch an episode every Saturday. It's not the same as it once was, and while that's not a bad thing, it's not the same program I sat down and drooled over 10 years ago.
I have nothing against any of the actors, companion or Doctor, but I flat out didn't bother making time to sit down and watch the series 9 premiere on Saturday. I watched it on Tuesday on iPlayer.
 

Thaluikhain

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TimeLord said:
the actual Daleks themselves are brilliant. They don't hold back before flat out killing Clara, Missy and making firewood out of the TARDIS. Brilliant! Credible threat restored.
Yeah, only we know that they didn't.

The Doctor goes "oh no", and we are supposed to care, but we know very well that Clara, Missy and the Tardis will be ok.

I'd love it if they (not the Tardis, obviously) were killed off for reals and not brought back, then it'd mean something. But it won't.
 

FalloutJack

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My opinion is no. This is a show that's gone through many iterations. Asking it to please everybody over the course of its entire run is pointless. You have one opinion on the matter, I have another. I like it, and I'm generally a little more forgiving of things in general. (And sometimes a member of the Department of Redundancy Department, sorry.) Where you say it lost something, I say things just got changed around somewhat, as they always have. This will continue to be the greatest show in the galaxy.
 

Ambient_Malice

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I'm really not a fan of post-reboot Doctor Who. It has featured some of the worst writing I have ever seen on a television program, and the show has repeatedly resorted to gimmicky, try-hard visual effects which destroy the tone of the show. Not to say modern Who hasn't had the occasional moment of brilliance, but the writing is just awful.
 

Queen Michael

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I dunno, I like current Doctor Who fine. I'm more like a kid when it comes to liking the show than an adult. I don't watch an episode and go "Worst. Episode. Ever," while crating a mentla list of all that was wrong with the ep. I'm more the kind of guy who goes "A new episode tonight! Whizzo!"
 

Kae

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I think it did and that Moffat is not very good at writing Dr. Who, I didn't even pay attention to who was writing the episodes but around the last David Tennant series I stopped caring and had a real hard time watching it and I only watched like 3 Matt Smith episodes, I don't exactly what it lost but considering how into it I used to be it's kinda weird that my interest just petered out at what I later found out was the time Moffat took over, which is weird because I also really liked Moffat's Sherlock, it was fantastic and then Series 3 happened and my interest petered out once again... Maybe you're right the man can't do over-arching since the first 2 series were very episodic and the third one was the one with more emphasis on the over-arching plot.
 

Albino Boo

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TimeLord said:
How is Davros even alive? That explosion in season 4 was fairly big. Ok, teleportation, escape pod, etc I can get behind that, but for god sake explain it to the audience how he still lives.

How is Missy alive? "Was dead, now I'm not, get over it"

Seriously. The explanation behind two major characters returning when one flat out dies on screen is "They are alive now, deal with it"? I could maybe go along with it if the Doctor cared, but he doesn't. He neither asks Missy or Davros how they survived. He just accepts it and moves on.
You think this in new? Davros was killed at the end of Genesis of the Daleks on his first appearance. They brought him back and killed him again later in old Who. So this the third time Davros has been killed and brought back. From memory its also the 3rd time the master has died and been brought back. I have been watching the show for 42 years and they have always done it.

 

Hawki

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I pretty much agree with what the OP said. As cool as it is to see Davros, and Missy, it doesn't change the fact that their presence makes no sense. Missy is indeed representative of everything about Moffat's run. Cool, yes. But it requires you to suspend your disbelief to the nth degree.

IMO, Moffat is a great writer for individual episodes. But as a showrunner, not so much. Maybe it's unfair to pin it all on him, but for me, there was a sharp decline in quality since the beginning of Matt Smith's run, and I can't point that all on nostalgia.
 

Thaluikhain

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albino boo said:
You think this in new? Davros was killed at the end of Genesis of the Daleks on his first appearance. They brought him back and killed him again later in old Who. So this the third time Davros has been killed and brought back. From memory its also the 3rd time the master has died and been brought back. I have been watching the show for 42 years and they have always done it.

Davros was killed off once in the original series, and him not being dead was a big part of his next story. One other time it's not clear if he dies or not, in the others it's clear he got away.

The Master was killed once in the original series (being burned to death), and that was handwaved very lazily next story.
 

Silvanus

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TimeLord said:
My main points of contention with 'The Magician's Apprentice' boil down to this;

How is Davros even alive? That explosion in season 4 was fairly big. Ok, teleportation, escape pod, etc I can get behind that, but for god sake explain it to the audience how he still lives.

How is Missy alive? "Was dead, now I'm not, get over it"



Seriously. The explanation behind two major characters returning when one flat out dies on screen is "They are alive now, deal with it"? I could maybe go along with it if the Doctor cared, but he doesn't. He neither asks Missy or Davros how they survived. He just accepts it and moves on.
Yep, this is a big problem with the series. Death in Dr. Who is even more meaningless than it is in comic books, to the point where it's assumed that a death will be undone in short order. It barely even counts as a retcon, because I'm fairly sure the death was never planned to last very long even when it occurred-- which is even worse, even cheaper.

This is one facet of the main issue I have with Dr. Who, which is that events have no gravitas when they occur. A death will not last. An invasion will not last. An entire species taking over a planet or galaxy will, with no doubt, last thirty minutes and then be entirely undone, with no lasting consequences of note. Even the Time War, the only real element of the Doctor's past to involve deathly consequences, was rewritten in The Day of the Doctor [http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Doctor_(TV_story)] so that everyone lives, nothing of note happened after all. That was criminal.

A related issue is the failure to hold any lasting coherence with the internal rules they've established. Even if they spell out an in-universe rule, even if they're very clear telling us how important and unbreakable this rule is, it doesn't matter. They'll just as easily break it in a couple of episodes' time. Big examples are the death of the Doctor at Lake Silencio, or the regeneration limit. Both were bigged up as highly important; both meant less than nothing.

The world has so many interesting elements, and so much potential. It would be done so much more justice if they remained coherent-- kept rules they established, did not rely so heavily on deus-ex-machinas, gave us a reason to consider threats credible. As it is, it's a mess. On a side-note, I'd consider RTD a bigger culprit for this than Moffat. By far.
 

Silverbane7

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i thought everyone had guessed that Missy never died at the end of the last season?
surely it cannot just be me?
there is no way that the master would ever give the doctor something to use against him, something that could kill him. its justnot in his nature.
becoming a woman would not change that. being even more (visably and vocaly) insane would also not change that.
the one thing i have learned in all the years of watching the show (and reading the books, and watching the vids/dvd's) is that a timelord or timelady never ever tells the 100% truth, and is allways a few moves ahead of everyone and everything.
hell, you cant even trust a simple Gallifreyan not to be slightly ahead of the game. (saying this to diferentiate the difference between the residents of Gallifrey and a timelords as a whole, because there are differences)

as for Davros being alive....again.... and the Doctor not asking....i think he's finaly realised that in some part, the universe likes to play with him. and villans like the daleks and davros not being dust by now is just his lot in life lol.
it seems inevitable that villans like these survive somehow. (we know its because they are so loved to be hated that they can never realy be written out)
 

vare

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I really hope the Witches familiar will be better then this episode.
I mean, there were a lot of stuff that was pretty cool in it - Missy especially, actually threatening Daleks, Davros and all the Skaro stuff. And the clips from and references to the Classic series was a nice touch. And the return of the Shadow Proclamation!

(Also, I've heard that the episode so far doesn't mess up the extended universe (the I, Davros in particular), which is nice.)

I just felt that it was, for all the things that happened, very lightweight storywise, more style then substance etc.
More of an
"so how is the Doctor gonna get out of this one and get his wife tardis and friends back"
then
"omg, is he going to die? is this the end of the doctor? so exciting"


thaluikhain said:
The Master was killed once in the original series (being burned to death), and that was handwaved very lazily next story.
Well, he was blown to pieces by the daleks in the movie
and then became a snake and possessed an american and then fell into the eye of harmony and... sort of died?
At least he dressed for the occasion. :D
 

Thaluikhain

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vare said:
thaluikhain said:
The Master was killed once in the original series (being burned to death), and that was handwaved very lazily next story.
Well, he was blown to pieces by the daleks in the movie
and then became a snake and possessed an american and then fell into the eye of harmony and... sort of died?
At least he dressed for the occasion. :D
Oh, right, yeah, forgot about the movie. Actually, why did you have to remind me? :(
 

Selucia

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Im fine with the modern doctor who but like the MCU they treat death to lightly which has taken away any suspense or impact behind it how many times do they expect us to care if the overall story arch involves the doctors death only when they will /handwave in a random deus ex resolution like the doctor at the lake was just a robot replica.

As for clara and the master i'm sure they are alive and missy is just trying to mess with the doctor so that he breaks in principles much like the joker and batman, After All i don't recall dalek weaponry not leaving bodies and their was a red flash during their deaths which make me thing they just teleported away using the wrist thing missey put on clara.
 

vare

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thaluikhain said:
Oh, right, yeah, forgot about the movie. Actually, why did you have to remind me? :(
Well, I keep forgetting that some people would rather not remember it. (also because I watched it recently, but that's beside the point :p)

capcha: "too late"
yes capcha, what has been done here can not be undone.
 

DudeistBelieve

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Sometimes it's worth keep continuity, but at the same time do I really care how Missy survived? How Davros survived? It'll never be a satisfying answer so no.
 

Something Amyss

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The strange thing is, a lot of these complaints are nothing new to Doctor Who. It's like people selectively remember only what they want.

Many of the problems people complain about with Moffat existed under Davies, and many of the problems people complain about with Davies originated in Classic Who. The complaints that Doctor Who has gone downhill because of reason X, when reason X was almost certainly present in whatever flavour of Who you liked, rings hollow.

I'm kind of waiting for the day people start blaming Moffat for inventing the Sonic Screwdriver or "fixed points in time" or something like that. Oh wait, I saw that second one with Daleks Take Manhattan.

Silverbane7 said:
i thought everyone had guessed that Missy never died at the end of the last season?
surely it cannot just be me?
I assumed it as well.
 

Rylot

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Silvanus said:
The world has so many interesting elements, and so much potential. It would be done so much more justice if they remained coherent-- kept rules they established, did not rely so heavily on deus-ex-machinas, gave us a reason to consider threats credible. As it is, it's a mess. On a side-note, I'd consider RTD a bigger culprit for this than Moffat. By far.
I don't disagree that both show runners have relied heavily on deus ex and bent their own rules but at least RTD gave some technobable reason or hand-waved it away, Moffat won't even bother to lift a finger to explain how impossible things have happened. Look at how the Tennant's Master was reincarnated as opposed to Capralidi's 'hey, I'm back'. Not to mention Moffat's annoying habit of completely invalidating entire seasons of even his own run (i.e. spending an entire season building up to the confrontation with Missy, killing her, then bringing her right the fuck back in the next fucking episode)

Moffat works best when he's writing self-contained episodes. He seems to write cool scenes and then tries to find a way to get the doctor into them and this leads to the plot driving the characters around. At least that's how I see us getting to 'The Amazing Adventures of Clara and Some Old Cranky Scotsman'.

Not to mention Moffat's all consuming obsession with Daleks. Granted RTD used them and Cybermen pretty heavily in Tennant's run, but Smith couldn't open a fucking broom closet without tripping over six or seven of the fucking things. I get that they're a staple of Doctor Who, but they've lost any and all threat at this point.

If anyone's interested in old Who BBC America is reshowing Tom Baker's run every morning at 10.