Does anybody prefer lock-on cover systems over passive cover systems in third person games?
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Definitely lock on. Passive cover systems usually end up with me getting frustrated with it because it doesn't do what I tell it to. I can tolerate it for 3rd person shooters, however for games with stealth mechanics I really dislike passive systems.
Nuh uh, my experience is the worst, though...DoPo said:
Look, by "always" i didn't mean that passive cover should be eradicated. It's just that in games that gave me passive cover system, so far it mostly fell clunky, and absolutely infuriating whenever i got stuck to a cover i didn't plan to. I much prefer when game gives me a choice in that matter, so i can decide if i want to stick to a cover or just move behind it.
Indeed. When I started playing back in ~2000 some of my best experiences from video games came from mods. Half-Life mods were rampant and a lot of good ones, as well.Vendor-Lazarus said:
I remember some that had an entirely new campaign which were really good. I really can't remember the name of one I liked but it...had a number in it. It might have been 481, as in the Fahrenheit temperature, but there as another word associated with it. At any rate, it told the story of what happened immediately after the Black Mesa incident in the rest of the world - you played as...somebody - can't even remember if they were a random guy or a significant one but you were going through almost fresh post-apocalyptic levels to do stuff. I do remember it being really good, though - I liked it a lot.
There was also Natural Selection which was AMAZING. It is now rightfully an entire game, however, back in HL days they had the base building and the alien metamorphisis and everything. I was absolutely floored the first time I played it - I had never actually seen anything like that as a mod before. The game was now completely different - it was Alien vs Predator..only without the Predator and it also added some StarCraft for good measure.
They Live was some single player zombie mod that I remember was quite popular for a time. I didn't actually play it, but I do recall a lot of people enjoyed it.
Counter-Strike is just a one of the most influential game systems produced ever and it started as a HL mod.
While Team Fortress did not start off in Half-Life land, it was commemorated there which eventually lead to Team Fortress 2 - another really big hit since.
I remember playing Worms as a mod for Half-Life as well. It was 3D, though, and an FPS. It wasn't that good - sort of average but at least it was funny and different. On the other hand, I've tried to find it in the following years but it didn't seem to exist. However, I do vividly remember playing it, and it wasn't Worms 3D - that was in third person. Bizarre. There is this mod [http://www.moddb.com/mods/wormshl/downloads/wormshl-beta-32], however, I think it's more recent than the one I played back in ~2005.
Fire Arms may just be my favourite Half-Life mod ever. I just really like it - it was a team based military shooter (in that you played soldiers) which added a dash of realism. Being shot hurt - if you survived it, you could end up bleeding until you bandaged the wound or, failing that, until you bleed to death (a feature in Action Half-Life as well). There were different classes that specialised in different things, like demolitions, medics, snipers, heavy weapons and so on. As you killed more people, you "levelled up" and unlocked more and more perks of the class - medics could not only apply bandages but also heal a bit, demolitionists could deploy more sophisticated explosives and more of them as well, etc, etc. What really got me was the realistic weapon handling - hold down the fire button and you wouldn't be hitting anything, however, if somebody is hiding behind a wall, you could shoot to hit them through it. If it's thin enough - thicker walls and covers would not be penetrated. However, what I really liked is that bullets bounced. It's not a reliable mechanic to use, not easily, but if you fire at the right angle, you'd get bullets ricocheting and possibly hitting other enemies. Or allies. Basically, there as an extra tactical side of shooting. The mod was sort of a mix between Team Fotress in terms of teams and classes and Counter-Strike in terms of realism. Really well done, as well.
I think my point is that I've enjoyed a lot of Half-Life mods.
Came in to say this, but with reference to ME2 instead.Elfgore said:
If you want a sticky cover system, that's fine - just don't have a single fucking button control vaulting, switching, and exiting. Whoever made that decision should be shot.
What was bad about the system in ME1?Elfgore said:
Press against cover to stick to it, pull away to exit. While in cover you fire just like in the next two games and gain an accuracy bonus. The ability to crouch means you can make use of low cover without the need to be pressed against it.
I find that to be a far better implementation that in Mass Effect 2 and 3 where your options were limpet or exposed.
For me it responded about as well as trying to drive a car with flat tires... so not well. You can do it, but it sucks something major. I remember having to hold the forward button for a solid three to five seconds for Shepherd to actually go into cover. At times it didn't even seem to work at all. It honestly just lead to me running and gunning my way through the game.votemarvel said:
I found Mass Effect 2 to be a massive improvement.
I used to prefer button-press, but looking back on Mass Effect 3, The Last of Us, Tomb Raider, and the Uncharted games, I couldn't tell you which games had which. So as long as it is well done I can go for either
When it's bad it's very memorable, though, I can distinctly recall smashing the button multiple times in Mass Effect 1, only to realize I couldn't use that particular rock as cover.
When it's bad it's very memorable, though, I can distinctly recall smashing the button multiple times in Mass Effect 1, only to realize I couldn't use that particular rock as cover.
I prefer to either hold down the button to take cover, like in Deus Ex: Human Revolution or to walk up to cover crouched, like in TLoU. It felt more organic in TLoU but in Human Revolution, it felt much more secure and I wasn't really concerned with accidentally leaving the cover for some reason. Pressing a button to enter cover and pressing it again to leave seems really tedious and clunky to do.
What's bad is that's not how it worked in practice. See, take cover and vault over cover tend to do slightly different things. Like, the exact opposite. And the way you do either of these is by pressing THE SAME BUTTON. What made the problem even worse was that the sprint button was again THE SAME BUTTON you'd use to take cover and vault over. So, if a fight breaks out, you would, quite naturally, want to get to cover as fast as possible. However, if you are sprinting towards cover you vault over it, you don't immediately stick behind it. but vault over. I don't think I've ever found myself thinking "Gee, maybe instead of hiding from enemy fire, let me try catching all of it with my face.". I probably haven't thought about this because it makes no sense. Exactly like the control overloading.votemarvel said:
So, when the shooting starts, in order to go into cover, you need to just slightly pick up your pace but then sort of stop and shuffle over for the last few meters, just in case Sheppard decides it's jump obstacle day today. Completely normal and natural. When you are under fire. Which is to say, looks and plays completely ridiculous.
Then there is another problem: some times what I really want to is to exit cover then sprint to a new cover which would be more advantageous. I'm willing to take the risk of being shot for the short jog that I need to do from point A to point B - that's what shields are for, after all. Remember that to exit cover you need to press the One Button to rule them all, One Button to find them, One Button to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them. The One button is also responsible for sprinting and vaulting. So, you press the One Button and then...what happens? Well the game "tried" to be "clever" by guessing your intention based on the vector of movement. If you haven't guessed, those are scare quotes because the game fails on both accounts - if you're, like, 1 degree off of what the designers decided to be The One True Way For This Game To Be Played If You Want To Exit Cover, it did the completely wrong thing. Again. Shepard decides that that survival is for the weak - "Fuck that - my face needs some more enemy fire NOW!" Shepard would go and then vault over to receive a portion of future hot lead in the front of the head.
In other words, the system didn't work, like, at all.
What system are you playing on? Tried it on my PC and it doesn't even take Shepard a second to enter cover, the same on my Xbox 360. It certainly takes no longer than manually entering cover in 2 and 3.Elfgore said:
Are you sure you are thinking of Mass Effect 1, the first game with your post? As the first game didn't provide the option to vault over cover. The only occasion that springs to mind of Shepard being able to vault over cover in the first game under combat conditions is while climbing the outside of the Citadel Tower.DoPo said:
In regard to the following 2 games. While it is true that you need to press the awesome button enter cover, you can exit it in the same manner as in the first game, by simply pulling away with the analogue stick.
I absolutely hate passive cover systems. After dealing with Mass Effect's horribly cover mechanics, I almost cried tears of joy when Mass Effect 2 told me to press a button to go into cover.
Passive cover is not natural in any way. I don't smooch with a wall if I want to put my back up against it. I don't suddenly get pulled into a wall because my butt happened to graze it while I was crouch walking (then again, I don't crouch walk so maybe walls are magnetically attracted to butts sticking out from a crouch). I also have never experienced a wall trying to hold onto me while I attempt to get away or push me away while I'm trying to lean against it.
Sure, I also don't press a button, but it at least isn't any less natural than magnetic butt attraction. And at least I have more control when button pressing rather than hoping I smooched the wall enough for the game's logic to determine that I want to use it. So if you want "organic" cover, then make it truly organic: I put cover between myself and the enemy and there's no making out with a wall involved. It's worked marvelously for Saints Row, Call of Duty, Halo, DOOM, and plenty of other games. However, if making out with a wall is necessary, then at least give me control over it with a button press.
Passive cover is not natural in any way. I don't smooch with a wall if I want to put my back up against it. I don't suddenly get pulled into a wall because my butt happened to graze it while I was crouch walking (then again, I don't crouch walk so maybe walls are magnetically attracted to butts sticking out from a crouch). I also have never experienced a wall trying to hold onto me while I attempt to get away or push me away while I'm trying to lean against it.
Sure, I also don't press a button, but it at least isn't any less natural than magnetic butt attraction. And at least I have more control when button pressing rather than hoping I smooched the wall enough for the game's logic to determine that I want to use it. So if you want "organic" cover, then make it truly organic: I put cover between myself and the enemy and there's no making out with a wall involved. It's worked marvelously for Saints Row, Call of Duty, Halo, DOOM, and plenty of other games. However, if making out with a wall is necessary, then at least give me control over it with a button press.
It's not a passive cover system in ME1, you have to push Shepard into cover. Shepard won't enter cover automatically as Lara does in the reboot Tomb Raiders.MysticSlayer said:
For me it gave me manual control of taking cover without the system being bound to the same button as several other functions.
Edit: I guess I should have mentioned that I prefer a manual cover system to a passive system where the character automatically does it for me.
I'd rather enter and exit cover with a button prompt than do it by accident.
I suppose if passive cover is done right, it'd be better, but I can't think of a game where I thought "I'm glad I don't have a cover button here."
I suppose if passive cover is done right, it'd be better, but I can't think of a game where I thought "I'm glad I don't have a cover button here."
I hate it so much, so very very much. Like others here, I prefer it either to be a very good context sensitive thing, or best of all, a "Hold it down" system. For something as important as taking cover from death, I want total control. Better yet...
...Fuck cover! We have the tech to do better how. Lets fly around, get vertical, dodge in three dimensions! Lets have more fun, than just huddling behind virtual walls under fire from virtual gunfire. I'd rather fly around and cast spells, or shoot lightning bolts.
...Fuck cover! We have the tech to do better how. Lets fly around, get vertical, dodge in three dimensions! Lets have more fun, than just huddling behind virtual walls under fire from virtual gunfire. I'd rather fly around and cast spells, or shoot lightning bolts.
Different games require different types. If it's a 3rd person shooter like GoW, then hard lock, or hold down to cover is fine. Makes it less messy. However in stealth games, the soft-lock is better, less chance for arbitrary button presses or getting stuck when you don't want to (games like Last of Us, or Batman Arkham games).
I know this thread is about the top two which I feel both have their place, but my favorite? Lean modifier keys. When you are in a firefight, that's what you're supposed to be doing anyway isn't it? To reveal the least of your body to go in and out of cover? But maybe because I play shooters primarily with KB&M.
I know this thread is about the top two which I feel both have their place, but my favorite? Lean modifier keys. When you are in a firefight, that's what you're supposed to be doing anyway isn't it? To reveal the least of your body to go in and out of cover? But maybe because I play shooters primarily with KB&M.
Assassin's Creed II/Brotherhood/Revelations had cover mechanics? Wasn't Unity the first to have cover mechanics?tippy2k2 said:
OT: Dammit this thread was meant for me, and now I'm stuck on the second page.
Anyway, yes, I much prefer an actual cover system. It makes the game feel more rhythmic to me. Like Splinter Cell Conviction, the cover system felt really smooth. In contrast, I was never ever able to do a proper over-the-chest-high-wall takedown in Ground Zeroes. I hate it when the game decides whether or not you are in cover.
But I understand people' frustrations with it, so I would like it better if a game both had a cover system and a movement system that is good enough to compensate for not using the cover system.
Technically speaking, it isn't fully covered in either from the OP. However, if you had read what I said after the comment about the transition between Mass Effect games, you'd realize Mass Effect falls very comfortably inside what I hate with incredible passion.votemarvel said:
At least in Mass Effect 2 and 3, it would be very hard to actually cause any ambiguity on what the player wants. The fact is, it wasn't just mapping a bunch of actions to one button and then relying on some complicated, obscure game logic to figure things out from context (similar to what the first game had). Directional input, tap vs. hold, and number of taps all gave well-defined, easy-to-learn ways to control the context. If you have trouble getting Shepard to do what you want, then that is completely on you not giving the correct input.
In contrast, the first Mass Effect required the game to determine if you actually wanted to enter/leave cover or not. This could often lead to delays between hitting and entering cover, taking too long to leave cover, entering cover because Shepard happened to graze it on their way past, and/or entering spastic dancing for who knows what reason. All of these could easily lead to unfair deaths, poor "game feel" with regards to movement, and general annoyance. And the worst part is that there was very often little the player could do to avoid it.
Sure, you could probably argue that Mass Effect worked "most" of the time, but the amount of control players had in the latter games and the amount of correctly interpreted actions were significantly improved in Mass Effect 2 and 3 compared to the first.