Does anybody prefer lock-on cover systems over passive cover systems in third person games?

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,475
5,290
118
I've had better experiences with soft cover than with hard cover, but I think hard cover can work well. The Last of Us was generally a slow moving game, so it didn't really require fast, snapping cover gameplay.

Having played the Uncharted 4 multiplayer beta, the cover snap is excellent. One of my best strategies in games like that whenever I'm chased by someone is to leap over the nearest cover, snap into it at the press of a button, and then just blindfire the sucker to death as he tries to come around me.
 

B-Cell_v1legacy

New member
Feb 9, 2016
2,102
0
0
Vendor-Lazarus said:
No cover system.
If I want to take cover I'll go behind something and crouch/prone.
I want to decide when to crouch, take cover, shoot and why.
No streamlined auto-cover/fighting/acrobatics. It's a no sale.

I remember a mod for half-life that implemented "cool effects" whereby you could vault all over the place and implement slow bullet/matrix time whenever you chose to.
Can't remember the name sadly but if they could do it in a mod then triple-A gaming sure as hell should be able to come up with something equally good.
Not making the new generation of gamers dependent on the game playing itself..
Thats very intellectual comment my friend. There is no such thing as good cover system.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

Censored by Mods. PM for Taboos
Mar 1, 2009
1,201
0
0
DoPo said:
Vendor-Lazarus said:
I remember a mod for half-life that implemented "cool effects" whereby you could vault all over the place and implement slow bullet/matrix time whenever you chose to.
Can't remember the name sadly but if they could do it in a mod then triple-A gaming sure as hell should be able to come up with something equally good.
There was The Specialist mod which ran wild with the idea. It was awesome. You could roll, plunge and do other acrobatics and it all depended on a single button. Some powerups allowed you to also execute very enhanced actions, like the bullet time[footnote]everybody else was just REALLY slow, while you had more control, also you'd be using it when it was advantageous to YOU, so the rest of the players would probably have the effect wasted[/footnote], akimbo guns (so you could do dual uzis or shotguns), or enhanced acrobatics which both enhanced your stamina meter and allowed your dodges and rolls to cover more ground and in general be more awesome. The Specialist focused on making the entire match into a John Woo movie.
The name doesn't really ring a bell but from the descriptions I found and the images (especially the map that resembles the matrix lounge, complete with destructible tiles) The Specialists must have been The One.. <.<
This was 10-15 years ago so that might be why I can't seem to recognize the name.
So many good (and bad) mods with varied, inventive and unique play-styles.
*Puts on spectacles* Those were the good days.

Thanks for the name!
 

Elfgore

Your friendly local nihilist
Legacy
Dec 6, 2010
5,655
24
13
I'm fine with both, so long as they aren't badly implemented. *cough* Mass Effect 1 *cough* That one was just god-awful and makes the first game a total chore.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,475
5,290
118
Elfgore said:
I'm fine with both, so long as they aren't badly implemented. *cough* Mass Effect 1 *cough* That one was just god-awful and makes the first game a total chore.
I don't even use it in Mass Effect 1. I just strafe it.
 

suitepee7

I can smell sausage rolls
Dec 6, 2010
1,273
0
0
Definitely lock on. Passive cover systems usually end up with me getting frustrated with it because it doesn't do what I tell it to. I can tolerate it for 3rd person shooters, however for games with stealth mechanics I really dislike passive systems.
 

09philj

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 31, 2015
2,154
949
118
Button press controlled. I find it much easier to switch between cover and free movement if it's toggled by me. Deus Ex Human Revolution has a great cover system (and a great combination of first and third person mechanics).
 
Oct 22, 2011
1,223
0
0
DoPo said:
MrCalavera said:
I had bad experience with passive cover system, and contextual controls in general.
And I've had very bad experiences with lock-on cover systems.

I think it would only be fair to compare the two on equal terms, though - every concept could be implemented poorly, however, I don't see people denouncing, say, Euro Truck Simulator just because Big Rigs exists.
Nuh uh, my experience is the worst, though...
Look, by "always" i didn't mean that passive cover should be eradicated. It's just that in games that gave me passive cover system, so far it mostly fell clunky, and absolutely infuriating whenever i got stuck to a cover i didn't plan to. I much prefer when game gives me a choice in that matter, so i can decide if i want to stick to a cover or just move behind it.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
8,665
0
0
Vendor-Lazarus said:
So many good (and bad) mods with varied, inventive and unique play-styles.
*Puts on spectacles* Those were the good days.
Indeed. When I started playing back in ~2000 some of my best experiences from video games came from mods. Half-Life mods were rampant and a lot of good ones, as well.

I remember some that had an entirely new campaign which were really good. I really can't remember the name of one I liked but it...had a number in it. It might have been 481, as in the Fahrenheit temperature, but there as another word associated with it. At any rate, it told the story of what happened immediately after the Black Mesa incident in the rest of the world - you played as...somebody - can't even remember if they were a random guy or a significant one but you were going through almost fresh post-apocalyptic levels to do stuff. I do remember it being really good, though - I liked it a lot.

There was also Natural Selection which was AMAZING. It is now rightfully an entire game, however, back in HL days they had the base building and the alien metamorphisis and everything. I was absolutely floored the first time I played it - I had never actually seen anything like that as a mod before. The game was now completely different - it was Alien vs Predator..only without the Predator and it also added some StarCraft for good measure.

They Live was some single player zombie mod that I remember was quite popular for a time. I didn't actually play it, but I do recall a lot of people enjoyed it.

Counter-Strike is just a one of the most influential game systems produced ever and it started as a HL mod.

While Team Fortress did not start off in Half-Life land, it was commemorated there which eventually lead to Team Fortress 2 - another really big hit since.

I remember playing Worms as a mod for Half-Life as well. It was 3D, though, and an FPS. It wasn't that good - sort of average but at least it was funny and different. On the other hand, I've tried to find it in the following years but it didn't seem to exist. However, I do vividly remember playing it, and it wasn't Worms 3D - that was in third person. Bizarre. There is this mod [http://www.moddb.com/mods/wormshl/downloads/wormshl-beta-32], however, I think it's more recent than the one I played back in ~2005.

Fire Arms may just be my favourite Half-Life mod ever. I just really like it - it was a team based military shooter (in that you played soldiers) which added a dash of realism. Being shot hurt - if you survived it, you could end up bleeding until you bandaged the wound or, failing that, until you bleed to death (a feature in Action Half-Life as well). There were different classes that specialised in different things, like demolitions, medics, snipers, heavy weapons and so on. As you killed more people, you "levelled up" and unlocked more and more perks of the class - medics could not only apply bandages but also heal a bit, demolitionists could deploy more sophisticated explosives and more of them as well, etc, etc. What really got me was the realistic weapon handling - hold down the fire button and you wouldn't be hitting anything, however, if somebody is hiding behind a wall, you could shoot to hit them through it. If it's thin enough - thicker walls and covers would not be penetrated. However, what I really liked is that bullets bounced. It's not a reliable mechanic to use, not easily, but if you fire at the right angle, you'd get bullets ricocheting and possibly hitting other enemies. Or allies. Basically, there as an extra tactical side of shooting. The mod was sort of a mix between Team Fotress in terms of teams and classes and Counter-Strike in terms of realism. Really well done, as well.

I think my point is that I've enjoyed a lot of Half-Life mods.
 

distortedreality

New member
May 2, 2011
1,132
0
0
Elfgore said:
I'm fine with both, so long as they aren't badly implemented. *cough* Mass Effect 1 *cough* That one was just god-awful and makes the first game a total chore.
Came in to say this, but with reference to ME2 instead.

If you want a sticky cover system, that's fine - just don't have a single fucking button control vaulting, switching, and exiting. Whoever made that decision should be shot.
 

votemarvel

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 29, 2009
1,353
3
43
Country
England
Elfgore said:
I'm fine with both, so long as they aren't badly implemented. *cough* Mass Effect 1 *cough* That one was just god-awful and makes the first game a total chore.
What was bad about the system in ME1?

Press against cover to stick to it, pull away to exit. While in cover you fire just like in the next two games and gain an accuracy bonus. The ability to crouch means you can make use of low cover without the need to be pressed against it.

I find that to be a far better implementation that in Mass Effect 2 and 3 where your options were limpet or exposed.
 

Elfgore

Your friendly local nihilist
Legacy
Dec 6, 2010
5,655
24
13
votemarvel said:
Elfgore said:
I'm fine with both, so long as they aren't badly implemented. *cough* Mass Effect 1 *cough* That one was just god-awful and makes the first game a total chore.
What was bad about the system in ME1?

Press against cover to stick to it, pull away to exit. While in cover you fire just like in the next two games and gain an accuracy bonus. The ability to crouch means you can make use of low cover without the need to be pressed against it.

I find that to be a far better implementation that in Mass Effect 2 and 3 where your options were limpet or exposed.
For me it responded about as well as trying to drive a car with flat tires... so not well. You can do it, but it sucks something major. I remember having to hold the forward button for a solid three to five seconds for Shepherd to actually go into cover. At times it didn't even seem to work at all. It honestly just lead to me running and gunning my way through the game.

I found Mass Effect 2 to be a massive improvement.
 

DrownedAmmet

Senior Member
Apr 13, 2015
683
0
21
I used to prefer button-press, but looking back on Mass Effect 3, The Last of Us, Tomb Raider, and the Uncharted games, I couldn't tell you which games had which. So as long as it is well done I can go for either

When it's bad it's very memorable, though, I can distinctly recall smashing the button multiple times in Mass Effect 1, only to realize I couldn't use that particular rock as cover.
 

Ryallen

Will never say anything smart
Feb 25, 2014
511
2
23
I prefer to either hold down the button to take cover, like in Deus Ex: Human Revolution or to walk up to cover crouched, like in TLoU. It felt more organic in TLoU but in Human Revolution, it felt much more secure and I wasn't really concerned with accidentally leaving the cover for some reason. Pressing a button to enter cover and pressing it again to leave seems really tedious and clunky to do.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
8,665
0
0
votemarvel said:
Elfgore said:
I'm fine with both, so long as they aren't badly implemented. *cough* Mass Effect 1 *cough* That one was just god-awful and makes the first game a total chore.
What was bad about the system in ME1?

Press against cover to stick to it, pull away to exit.
What's bad is that's not how it worked in practice. See, take cover and vault over cover tend to do slightly different things. Like, the exact opposite. And the way you do either of these is by pressing THE SAME BUTTON. What made the problem even worse was that the sprint button was again THE SAME BUTTON you'd use to take cover and vault over. So, if a fight breaks out, you would, quite naturally, want to get to cover as fast as possible. However, if you are sprinting towards cover you vault over it, you don't immediately stick behind it. but vault over. I don't think I've ever found myself thinking "Gee, maybe instead of hiding from enemy fire, let me try catching all of it with my face.". I probably haven't thought about this because it makes no sense. Exactly like the control overloading.

So, when the shooting starts, in order to go into cover, you need to just slightly pick up your pace but then sort of stop and shuffle over for the last few meters, just in case Sheppard decides it's jump obstacle day today. Completely normal and natural. When you are under fire. Which is to say, looks and plays completely ridiculous.

Then there is another problem: some times what I really want to is to exit cover then sprint to a new cover which would be more advantageous. I'm willing to take the risk of being shot for the short jog that I need to do from point A to point B - that's what shields are for, after all. Remember that to exit cover you need to press the One Button to rule them all, One Button to find them, One Button to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them. The One button is also responsible for sprinting and vaulting. So, you press the One Button and then...what happens? Well the game "tried" to be "clever" by guessing your intention based on the vector of movement. If you haven't guessed, those are scare quotes because the game fails on both accounts - if you're, like, 1 degree off of what the designers decided to be The One True Way For This Game To Be Played If You Want To Exit Cover, it did the completely wrong thing. Again. Shepard decides that that survival is for the weak - "Fuck that - my face needs some more enemy fire NOW!" Shepard would go and then vault over to receive a portion of future hot lead in the front of the head.

In other words, the system didn't work, like, at all.
 

votemarvel

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 29, 2009
1,353
3
43
Country
England
Elfgore said:
For me it responded about as well as trying to drive a car with flat tires... so not well. You can do it, but it sucks something major. I remember having to hold the forward button for a solid three to five seconds for Shepherd to actually go into cover. At times it didn't even seem to work at all. It honestly just lead to me running and gunning my way through the game.

I found Mass Effect 2 to be a massive improvement.
What system are you playing on? Tried it on my PC and it doesn't even take Shepard a second to enter cover, the same on my Xbox 360. It certainly takes no longer than manually entering cover in 2 and 3.

DoPo said:
What's bad is that's not how it worked in practice. See, take cover and vault over cover tend to do slightly different things. Like, the exact opposite. And the way you do either of these is by pressing THE SAME BUTTON. What made the problem even worse was that the sprint button was again THE SAME BUTTON you'd use to take cover and vault over. So, if a fight breaks out, you would, quite naturally, want to get to cover as fast as possible. However, if you are sprinting towards cover you vault over it, you don't immediately stick behind it. but vault over. I don't think I've ever found myself thinking "Gee, maybe instead of hiding from enemy fire, let me try catching all of it with my face.". I probably haven't thought about this because it makes no sense. Exactly like the control overloading.

So, when the shooting starts, in order to go into cover, you need to just slightly pick up your pace but then sort of stop and shuffle over for the last few meters, just in case Shepard decides it's jump obstacle day today. Completely normal and natural. When you are under fire. Which is to say, looks and plays completely ridiculous.

Then there is another problem: some times what I really want to is to exit cover then sprint to a new cover which would be more advantageous. I'm willing to take the risk of being shot for the short jog that I need to do from point A to point B - that's what shields are for, after all. Remember that to exit cover you need to press the One Button to rule them all, One Button to find them, One Button to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them. The One button is also responsible for sprinting and vaulting. So, you press the One Button and then...what happens? Well the game "tried" to be "clever" by guessing your intention based on the vector of movement. If you haven't guessed, those are scare quotes because the game fails on both accounts - if you're, like, 1 degree off of what the designers decided to be The One True Way For This Game To Be Played If You Want To Exit Cover, it did the completely wrong thing. Again. Shepard decides that that survival is for the weak - "Fuck that - my face needs some more enemy fire NOW!" Shepard would go and then vault over to receive a portion of future hot lead in the front of the head.

In other words, the system didn't work, like, at all.
Are you sure you are thinking of Mass Effect 1, the first game with your post? As the first game didn't provide the option to vault over cover. The only occasion that springs to mind of Shepard being able to vault over cover in the first game under combat conditions is while climbing the outside of the Citadel Tower.

In regard to the following 2 games. While it is true that you need to press the awesome button enter cover, you can exit it in the same manner as in the first game, by simply pulling away with the analogue stick.
 

MysticSlayer

New member
Apr 14, 2013
2,405
0
0
I absolutely hate passive cover systems. After dealing with Mass Effect's horribly cover mechanics, I almost cried tears of joy when Mass Effect 2 told me to press a button to go into cover.

Passive cover is not natural in any way. I don't smooch with a wall if I want to put my back up against it. I don't suddenly get pulled into a wall because my butt happened to graze it while I was crouch walking (then again, I don't crouch walk so maybe walls are magnetically attracted to butts sticking out from a crouch). I also have never experienced a wall trying to hold onto me while I attempt to get away or push me away while I'm trying to lean against it.

Sure, I also don't press a button, but it at least isn't any less natural than magnetic butt attraction. And at least I have more control when button pressing rather than hoping I smooched the wall enough for the game's logic to determine that I want to use it. So if you want "organic" cover, then make it truly organic: I put cover between myself and the enemy and there's no making out with a wall involved. It's worked marvelously for Saints Row, Call of Duty, Halo, DOOM, and plenty of other games. However, if making out with a wall is necessary, then at least give me control over it with a button press.
 

votemarvel

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 29, 2009
1,353
3
43
Country
England
MysticSlayer said:
I absolutely hate passive cover systems. After dealing with Mass Effect's horribly cover mechanics, I almost cried tears of joy when Mass Effect 2 told me to press a button to go into cover.
It's not a passive cover system in ME1, you have to push Shepard into cover. Shepard won't enter cover automatically as Lara does in the reboot Tomb Raiders.

For me it gave me manual control of taking cover without the system being bound to the same button as several other functions.

Edit: I guess I should have mentioned that I prefer a manual cover system to a passive system where the character automatically does it for me.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,759
0
0
I'd rather enter and exit cover with a button prompt than do it by accident.

I suppose if passive cover is done right, it'd be better, but I can't think of a game where I thought "I'm glad I don't have a cover button here."