Does Dark = Good?

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Soviet Heavy

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Ieyke said:
I'd argue that that is just another way of looking at it, much like how every faction in 40K can be interpreted differently.

The way I always saw it, Pius being there and laying down his life held more weight than a supersoldier doing the same thing. To me, it not only gave a glimmer of hope to Humanity, but it was the sacrifice of someone a complete stranger to the Emperor that made him realize just how important it was that Emprah should win.

The difference between a buddy laying down his life for the Emperor and a complete stranger is really what divides it for me. Fighting to avenge a buddy makes the Emprah out to be more of a ponce and a jackass, and it is probably more true to the universe that way.

Fighting for the sacrifice of a complete stranger and all the symbolism behind it had more emotional impact for me, but it seems a little too ideal for the setting.

It's all in the way you look at it.
 

IamLEAM1983

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Aug 22, 2011
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I figure we'll eventually get over this Grimdark fetish of sorts, but it won't really be gradual. Just as we more or less sharply veered into pretty angsty stuff over the last thirteen years or so, we'll eventually get tired of it all and start slapping bubblegum happiness everywhere.

I know, it's a little cynical on my part, but I tend to think that best-selling mediums don't thrive on subtlety. They need and want the biggest immediate emotional impact, ergo the Disney ending or the general tone of the Warhammer 40K universe.

Oh, and I absolutely agree about the 40K universe having space for depth, but most of what comes out of Games Workshop and the companion novels is just more of the same murky sludge of despair and fury. I figure that any chapter that doesn't go "EAT, SLEEP, CODEX, WAKE UP, CODEX, EAT, CODEX, FIGHT, CODEX, SLEEP, CODEX, WAKE UP, CODEX" could offer some emotional leeway and set the stage for more human characters - but the bulk of the universe isn't focused on that.

40K is and probably always will be Power Armor Porn interspersed with fairly occasional moments of lucidity. It mostly depends on the studio's writers, really, and how willing they are to break out of the basic juvenile mold of "War all the time".

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Ieyke

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Soviet Heavy said:
Ieyke said:
I'd argue that that is just another way of looking at it, much like how every faction in 40K can be interpreted differently.

The way I always saw it, Pius being there and laying down his life held more weight than a supersoldier doing the same thing. To me, it not only gave a glimmer of hope to Humanity, but it was the sacrifice of someone a complete stranger to the Emperor that made him realize just how important it was that Emprah should win.

The difference between a buddy laying down his life for the Emperor and a complete stranger is really what divides it for me. Fighting to avenge a buddy makes the Emprah out to be more of a ponce and a jackass, and it is probably more true to the universe that way.

Fighting for the sacrifice of a complete stranger and all the symbolism behind it had more emotional impact for me, but it seems a little too ideal for the setting.

It's all in the way you look at it.
It's not that The Emperor is a ponce/jackass, it's simply that he has perspective on what a single human life actually means in the greater scheme of things. You have to look at it this way, by the time of the Horus Heresy, The Emperor has already experienced something like 380,039,000 years of life (minimally....despite being only ~231,000 years old....or ~39,000 years old, depending on how you're counting). This guy has seen it all. He has seen countless humans die by every method. He's seen heroes, cowards, tyrants, greed, selflessness, etc etc etc. A single man stepping up against impossible odds and dying for a gloriously noble cause is nothing he hasn't seen a million times. What The Emperor has had few and far between of are friends who last any amount of time. People who have truly incredible power and the discipline never to abuse it over looooong periods and stand the tests of time like no ordinary man ever could.
His Shaman brothers and sisters, if any survived independent of him (Grammaticus?, Malcador?, Pius?) would've been the very few "humans" that could've sustained any meaningful relationships with up until he created the Space Marines, Custodes, and Primarchs. After all, what is a 50-100 year long life to a being who has already experienced 3,800,390x that span of time. Days must go by in a blink. Years must seem like hours to him.
Despite their much longer lives, his Thunder Warriors and Space Marines are nothing to get attached to, he created them to serve and fully expects them to die violently in battle. The Primarchs would've been the first of his creations he could actually be close to and expect them to keep surviving and not grow old and die....but they were made to lead the Marines, always out in the galaxy at the forefront of the Great Crusade.
This leaves the Adeptus Custodes, his personal bodyguards. More powerful and longer lived than his Marines, and intended to always be at his side (well, the 200 Custodes of The Companions, anyways). These are warriors of titanic physical and mental ability, compared to humans. Men who are only a few steps away from him all day, every day. They witness basically everything that he experiences and does, and they will unwaveringly stand by him until they die...likely in an effort to protect him, a man who basically needs no protecting. If The Emperor were to interact with other creatures as friends and come to admire and respect them, the Custodes would easily be among those who would earn it.
He KNOWS these men. Their loyalty, their bravery, their discipline, their devotion, their personalities.
To have one of THEM die is to take away from The Emperor one of the very few things in the galaxy that he has a short supply of, trusted, respected, familiar, friends.
THAT is how you hit The Emperor where he feels it. THAT is why Horus' betrayal hurt him so bad. Why he was so loathe to believe that Horus was irredeemable. Aside from maybe Malcador, Horus was probably the person closest to The Emperor. His most trusted. His right hand. His family and son, no less. If The Emperor were to ever finally step down from personally ruling the galaxy, his Primarch sons would've been the leaders to take his place with Horus at their head.

One selfless human dying for The Emperor? Certainly The Emperor would probably make sure his noble sacrifice was noted (simply because not much slips past his notice, and he seems like the type to make sure credit is given to those who earn it), but it wouldn't be a deed that would break through The Emperor's utter denial at the idea that he had lost Horus irrevocably to betrayal, of all horrific things.
 

CrimsonBlaze

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What kind of ending (happy, dark, or edgy) shouldn't be the main focus of the ending. An ending that is both satisfying and delivers closure to the narrative is what constitutes a fitting ending.
 

TehCookie

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Making things dark makes it appeal to an older audience because they think it's more mature. That way you can completely take a dude dressed up as a bat and chasing a guy wearing clown makeup seriously and say it's for adults. I don't like that kind of dark so I can't explain why people like that more than a dude running around in spandex with a little boy fighting crime. Though dark being a broad term I like cheerfully dark stories. It can be a dark story that breaks up the tension from time to time with some comedy, or just a plain psychopathic story where there is so many things that are morally wrong and disturbing in it but it is still upbeat and bright.