Does free will exist?

[captainwalrus]

Life is NOT random. I cannot make myself anymore clear on that. And because life is not random, humans are always given choices. When a person makes a choice they are guided by their own logic and reasoning, and their own logic and reasoning will determine every choice and future choices they make.

I think we both agree on this.

So in conclusion, free will does not exist because of restrictions and limitations created by previous choices we made and internal and external factors that guide a person.

This is where our opinions differ. I agree that the world is deterministic given natural laws that govern the universe. However, that kind of limitation does not indicate that free will does not exist, just that pure randomness does not exist.

Please correct me, if I'm wrong. You're saying that: If free will exists, then no internal or external factors may determine our actions. All actions happen for, essentially, no reason.

Of course, that's just inane.

So, let's go back to this:

People are not free to anything, because let's say you have the choice to either go movies or go swimming. You would weigh up every factor, your health, how you feel, are you energetic, is there anything good to watch, what's the weather like etc. Then hypothetically you chose to go to the movies. You chose to do that because of all those factors, and even if you went back 100 times to that exact point you would make that decision again and again because life is not random. The choices you made were guided by all those factors, and every choice you make in life is restricted by external and internal factors.

Would you agree that, given the current mental capabilities of the human mind and the current state of science and technology, a man cannot know the decision he will make for a choice before he considers the choice? For example, before I consider whether or not I want to go to the movies or go swimming, I do not know that I will decide to go to the movies. And certainly, determinism does not mean that I cannot weigh the options of swimming or going to the movies. Of course, I am determined to go to the movies. However, I do not know that I will go to the movies, prior to actually considering the choice.

Therefore, this brings me to my conception of free will: That, given our incapability of knowing what we are going to do before we actually do it, free will is the exercise of making rational choices, although those choices are already determined by natural laws. Rational choices being decisions I make because I want to do them.

An example of an irrational choice would be OCD behaviors, where one, let's say, obsessively cleans because he would really rather clean than do anything else, but because his compulsion overwhelms all other desires.

 

[Random Argument Man]

Yes, it does. However, every actions has results.

 

[Gitsnik]

That's absolute crap. Randomness does exist. Have you heard of the uncertainty principle? Chaos theory? All those things?

- If variable can have any value, why are things in natural balance? Everything ultimately goes through our logic. Even wikipedia says about chaos theory "the behavior of chaotic systems appears to be random." Well that's not much to say? The numbers my calculator gives with random(1,10) command seem to be random, though calculator's programmer knows what kind of deterministic process they're based on. I'd much rather accept that we're deficient in cognitive capabilities than that universe has randomness.

Your calculators random numbers are predictable (there is no way a calculator has a true random number generator) - even the computer based ones we have now are theoretically predictable (theoretically predictable in much the same way that you can theoretically brute force a 2042-bit RSA keypair - but practically impossible as we're more likely to suffer the heat death of the universe first with current tech and processing power). The best we have is a site that monitors atmospheric noise and uses that for random numbers - and even that should be theoretically predictable with enough sensors, data, and processing power (based off world I think because of the requirements to work around what the machine does etc.). The concept of chaos theory actually defies the logic of the laws of physics - although it sits nicely with a lot of peoples world and self views so it is not something we've completely ignored yet - it is just that we do not have the technology, power and/or cognitive capabilities to monitor and predict these things. Indeed I doubt if any race ever would or could.

 

[JC175]

We need our Gammas, Deltas, and Epsilons just as much as the Betas and Alphas!

...

Sorry, I've been listening to Brave New World on audiotape on my way to work and back..

I claim the right to be unhappy.

Great book.

 

[300ccs of medicine]

As concept, I would write off the discussion entirely as it serves no practical purpose.

Oh but it is a very important distinction. A huge number of decisions are made every day, by people at all levels of society, based on OTHER IDEAS that completely hinge on the existence of free will. Take for example, religion. And from religion, take christianity. Or any other major religion, and most of the minor ones, for the most part. Christianity completely hinges on the concept that you have a free will and you can use it to do such and such. Now, regardless of which side of christianity or the free will debates you fall on, the postulate of free will, if false, undermines a great many of ideas that are in many parts of the world central to policy making.

Or at least that's how I see it.

 

[4RT1LL3RY]

Random isn't random. Chaos is false. Everything has order to it if you understand what is happening. What makes something look a certain way is how you perceive it. When you look at something you are always missing a very large chunk. There are lots of parts of the laws of physics we don't understand yet or that are just theory. Quantum mechanics is ridiculous to comprehend. Higgs bosin and dark matter are still unproven, so they are still theory.

Religion can be dangerous thing. When you stop just believing in something and make it a religion it changes. A belief can be changed, a religion cannot so easily. Beliefs are personal, while religion is all the persons. Every one sees parts of religion different ways, its all up to interpretation just like everything else, that is why radicals exist. Beliefs aren't based on free will, they are based on what some one perceives as the right thing. Your frame of reference is always just the tip of the iceburg, there is so much more you don't get to see.

 

[300ccs of medicine]

I'm going to quote myself because on the internet, nobody can see you blush.

"People keep looking at physics and math to give them the answers to the universe. They'll never find it there because that's not where it is. The human brain contains, by sharp contrast, the answers to why we're asking those questions."

 

[thedo12]

Ive proven the idea of free will by simply clicking on this thread unless your definition of free will is different then mine.
to me free will means we have choices and we choose from the avaiable options, I could have left this thread alone or I could of clicked on the title and posted (which im doing now) .


"we dont,t choose the cards were dealt but only how we play them"

 

[4RT1LL3RY]

Our brain can be understood though. We just don't yet, we look to math and physics to explain how things work. Once we figure out how "we" work we gain a greater understanding of everything. The universe is made up of perceptions and truths, we use math and science to find the truths. But we need to know our perceptions most, because those skew the truths that we find.

 

[Gitsnik]

To an extent, free will exists, the paths in life are endless, but it not always your choice what path you take.

It all matters on why you do things.

Behavioristo you jack off because it feels good, and you like feeling?
Evolutionisto you jack off because it'll help you become a better lover, and possibly have more seeds
Cognitiveo you jackoff because it feels good man

Existentialist: Should you be asking those questions as a woman

Sorry, couldn't help myself

 

[Ignignoct]

As concept, I would write off the discussion entirely as it serves no practical purpose.

Oh but it is a very important distinction. A huge number of decisions are made every day, by people at all levels of society, based on OTHER IDEAS that completely hinge on the existence of free will. Take for example, religion. And from religion, take christianity. Or any other major religion, and most of the minor ones, for the most part. Christianity completely hinges on the concept that you have a free will and you can use it to do such and such. Now, regardless of which side of christianity or the free will debates you fall on, the postulate of free will, if false, undermines a great many of ideas that are in many parts of the world central to policy making.

Or at least that's how I see it.

Shame you didn't read past that first part, it seems, as I clearly stated that for all practical purposes of existing as a human on the planet earth during our current century, free will does exist and matters very very much. It's just the debate that is so far above the lofty clouds that it serves no PRACTICAL purpose as the minutiae is so... blech... I'm rambling.

So...

No matter how much someone doesn't believe in free will... He'll still have to choose if he wants to have the McChicken combo meal, or the 10-pc chicken nuggets with honey and BBQ sauce.

 

[Ignignoct]

To an extent, free will exists, the paths in life are endless, but it not always your choice what path you take.

It all matters on why you do things.

Behavioristo you jack off because it feels good, and you like feeling?
Evolutionisto you jack off because it'll help you become a better lover, and possibly have more seeds
Cognitiveo you jackoff because it feels good man

Existentialist: Should you be asking those questions as a woman

Sorry, couldn't help myself

Good thing women can't masturbate.

They NEED us men to keep em warm at night, AMIRITE?

Edit:

Pragmatist: Because I'll wake up with sticky blankets and get random erections if I go too long without jackin'.

 

[Ignignoct]

Random isn't random. Chaos is false. Everything has order to it if you understand what is happening. What makes something look a certain way is how you perceive it. When you look at something you are always missing a very large chunk. There are lots of parts of the laws of physics we don't understand yet or that are just theory. Quantum mechanics is ridiculous to comprehend. Higgs bosin and dark matter are still unproven, so they are still theory.

Religion can be dangerous thing. When you stop just believing in something and make it a religion it changes. A belief can be changed, a religion cannot so easily. Beliefs are personal, while religion is all the persons. Every one sees parts of religion different ways, its all up to interpretation just like everything else, that is why radicals exist. Beliefs aren't based on free will, they are based on what some one perceives as the right thing. Your frame of reference is always just the tip of the iceburg, there is so much more you don't get to see.

Thank you for making the case for randomness and chaos existing for all practical intents and purposes.

 

[Gitsnik]

Good thing women can't masturbate.

They NEED us men to keep em warm at night, AMIRITE?

Oh yeah, too bad electric blankets and dildo's haven't been invented yet.

Where would you be without our sandwhiches?

Starved.

That's what.

There is another case against free will here - the hormonal drive and desire behind men and the desire to have one man take care of her in women (generalisation) are quite strong in a lot of people - their choices might make them still fussy, but ultimately they are heading towards a single goal - partnership and coupling.

There are other aspects of the human "condition" that drive people as well, the want/need to eat, drink, sleep and breath, as well as many of the choices they are driven to make because of these needs.

On the other hand, you can choose not to get laid if you wish, monks do it all of the time - but I can't help but wonder what the monks would do if they thought they (and a couple of females) were the last people on the face of the earth - does the human urge to repopulate and propagate the species overrule their mental choice of being celibate? What of a catholic priest who has a strong belief in his system of faith (no little boy jokes please)?

 

[MoganFreeman]

If free will didn't exist, there would be no justification for punishing people for their actions.

 

[300ccs of medicine]

If free will didn't exist, there would be no justification for punishing people for their actions.

If someone does something that harms someone else or breaks a law (or both I guess) then they should be punished for their actions. Period. If free will exists then they should be punished for making that choice, if free will does not exist then they should be punished a) to attempt to modify the behavior and b) to keep them from doing it again, because they have now proven that they are capable of doing so.

 

[JC175]

To an extent, free will exists, the paths in life are endless, but it not always your choice what path you take.

It all matters on why you do things.

Behavioristo you jack off because it feels good, and you like feeling?
Evolutionisto you jack off because it'll help you become a better lover, and possibly have more seeds
Cognitiveo you jackoff because it feels good man

Existentialist: Should you be asking those questions as a woman

Sorry, couldn't help myself

Haha
I just thought that example would be the easiest/best to understand example for this forum.
I have yet to see another girl here =/

There are a few, you just have to look around. Labyrinth would be one, she's pretty well esteemed around here.

"Women's rights?"
"No, that's more of a man's thing, isn't it? My father's a women's rights activist."
"Not your mum?"
"No, no. Dad wouldn't allow that."

Kudos if anyone gets the reference.

 

[Gerafin]

The big bang started it off...

Particles crashing against each other. Nothing random, everything governed by physical laws.

Particle A strikes Particle B at this angle at this speed. Particle A goes this way. Particle B goes this way.

Gravity. Gravity pulls them together. Planets form.

Again, nothing random. Laws. The only truly trustworthy force on this planet, operating on such a small scale that we cannot comprehend how they truly work. Physical laws determine EXACTLY what happens. To everything. You can use these laws to predict how a car will go down a ramp. You can use them to predict what will happen when a plane crashes. Complex physical laws are being used to simulate climate change and other natural events. Chemical laws, electrical laws, physical laws, laws of gravitation... all of these laws affect each and every particle in existence, in completely predictable ways. There is no room for electrical signals to take a different path - there is no room for their freedom. WE are NO EXCEPTION.

The big bang shot out these particles, and they're still moving, still bouncing against each other. The conditions were set, and now the particles are playing out their parts according to these basic laws...

My arm shoots out of the big bang and my fingers wrap around a can. Signals from my head fly out of the past, electric signals bounced around the universe that now run from my head into my arm, telling it to pick up the can. Signals that are transmitted by particles. Particles that were set in motion by an event so massive we can still hear the echoes today. Particles that followed very specific laws in order to reach my head, and particles that followed very specific laws to transmit that signal to my arm. My brain didn't decide to pick up the can. The particles just happened to be moving in that direction.


The understanding of these laws has led to incredible technological achievements... but we're just basic molecular structures, too. Mostly water, really.

Build me a computer powerful enough to map out every atom in this universe. Then, write a program that would teach it exactly how each one of those particles reacts with the others. Then tell it which way they're moving now.

Hit play.

I know where you'll be in 12 years. I know when the Earth will end. I know whether or not I'm going to drink this can of Monster. I know everything.

Everything.

Right-oh. I'm going to shut up now. Yes, I drank the Monster, how did you guess?

 

[Ignignoct]

The big bang started it off...

Particles crashing against each other. Nothing random, everything governed by physical laws.

Particle A strikes Particle B at this angle at this speed. Particle A goes this way. Particle B goes this way.

Gravity. Gravity pulls them together. Planets form.

Again, nothing random. Laws. The only truly trustworthy force on this planet, operating on such a small scale that we cannot comprehend how they truly work. Physical laws determine EXACTLY what happens. To everything. You can use these laws to predict how a car will go down a ramp. You can use them to predict what will happen when a plane crashes. Complex physical laws are being used to simulate climate change and other natural events. Chemical laws, electrical laws, physical laws, laws of gravitation... all of these laws affect each and every particle in existence, in completely predictable ways. There is no room for electrical signals to take a different path - there is no room for their freedom. WE are NO EXCEPTION.

The big bang shot out these particles, and they're still moving, still bouncing against each other. The conditions were set, and now the particles are playing out their parts according to these basic laws...

My arm shoots out of the big bang and my fingers wrap around a can. Signals from my head fly out of the past, electric signals bounced around the universe that now run from my head into my arm, telling it to pick up the can. Signals that are transmitted by particles. Particles that were set in motion by an event so massive we can still hear the echoes today. Particles that followed very specific laws in order to reach my head, and particles that followed very specific laws to transmit that signal to my arm. My brain didn't decide to pick up the can. The particles just happened to be moving in that direction.


The understanding of these laws has led to incredible technological achievements... but we're just basic molecular structures, too. Mostly water, really.

Build me a computer powerful enough to map out every atom in this universe. Then, write a program that would teach it exactly how each one of those particles reacts with the others. Then tell it which way they're moving now.

Hit play.

I know where you'll be in 12 years. I know when the Earth will end. I know whether or not I'm going to drink this can of Monster. I know everything.

Everything.

Right-oh. I'm going to shut up now. Yes, I drank the Monster, how did you guess?

So again, for all practical reasons that one might apply to living day to day...

Free Will is painfully obvious and necessary.

Don't drink the Monster! YOUR GENERATION IS BEING MARKETED TO AND SOLD SUGAR, WATER AND CAFFEINE WITH A TRENDY MARKETING CAMPAIGN! Don't feed your own predators!

Just buy the B-vitamin and caffeine pills for 10 cents a pop and have yourself a ball.

 

[300ccs of medicine]

I've got a bone to pick.

From whence did the idea come that nerves in the central or peripheral nervous system carry electricity? I've heard people saying it here, and elsewhere. They do not. They conduct a wave of depolarization. Not the same thing. AT all.

Anyone know where this is coming from?