Does free will exist?

[Lukeje]

The ignorance of what determinalism is on this thread is staggering. It is not following "societies" rules. Its accepting physics is a fact. And that your brain follows it. Give my any scenario and i can hypothetically make a computer to predict what will happen. You throw a ball, you fly a spac eship, your brain releases a hormone, i can hypothetically track the motion of every brain cell you have, every message it sends. You are a machine, a slave to physics, accept it.

Quantum mechanics kind of slipped you by, huh?

You mean uncertainty theory? Ill grant that this along with the schrodingers cat paradox does imply we cannot 100% predict every action, but the fact that an atom can bouce one way or another depending on what we observe doesnt grant free will. It only means you are a slave to a few possible actions, none of which are in your control.

Uncertainty theory? That's not a term used in physics; what exactly do you mean by it?

I was referring to the fact that everything is in fact a probability distribution. There is a limit to how much one can predict; your hypothetical computer is a physical impossibility (this is of course ignoring the fact that such a computer would be impossible to build even if the universe were in fact classical; such a computer would have to be `outside' the system).

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Determinalism, nothing "magic" happens in the universe, only physics. 100% prediactable physics. So i can predict the motion, reaction and moves of your brain cells and predict every one of your actions. Google it.

You can "choose" to starve to death. But the atom that hits the receptor that sends the pulse to reject all food was set in motion a billion billion years ago when the big bang happened.

**googles it**

**laughs in your face**

You're kidding, right? Right?

If you aren't kidding, you clearly have no understanding of what you just googled. It's ancient philosophy, packaged in the terms of physics. Even the physicists who have theorized this don't actually believe it - it's one of those "in a perfect universe, you could etc" thing that admits that this is NOT something that actually works in THIS universe.

Also "atoms bouncing in my brain" have nothing to do with what they're talking about. Radiation from the big bang isn't involved. They're saying that if you could fully measure the current particles moving about in someone's head (ie, the electrical impulses of the brain), then you could predict what they are thinking.

That isn't predestination - that's mind-reading.

Anyway, it fails due to Schrodinger's Cat - as soon as you measure it, you change it, and thus render the measurement (and predictions) pointless.

So yeah, stop trying to use physics - and faulty physics at that - to argue philosophy. It just makes you look silly.

Edit: Since you apparently aren't joking, here's why you're an idiot:

Honestly unless you are a fundamental christian and believe all science is lies i dont understand how you can believe in free will. How does "random" happen in your brain? DId that electrical charge in yoru brain just HAPPEN? Did you just create energy? Well done, all thermodynamics is a lie! Unless you render all physics moot, you cannot just change the way an atom bounces in your brain by magic, you cant create electricity from nothing in your mind to "choose" something.

You cannot create electricity? Huh. I think the Hoover Dam might have some issues with that.

Your brain turns energy from the food you eat INTO electricity. The same way a the Hoover dam turns potential energy from the water in the electricity.

You've mis understood. Of couse you can make electricty. Also your cells mitochondria make electricy from ATP dyring respiration not in your brain, its everwhere. However this process is physics! And predictable. I mean create energy from NOTHING. And no you didnt just "generate" energy, you converted it from one type to another. Other than with fusion matter and energy are non interhchangable and can neither be created or destroyed.

 

[Princess Rose]

Im not kidding. Explain to me simply how, without the use of a god or magic force, you can randomly generate me a number from 1 to 10. The synapse that fires does so logically and from the reaction of molecules in your head. Does a molecule just change direction for no reason? Does electrity just become generated from nothing in your brain? All of which are moving under the laws of physics. Ill grant you schrodingers cat, but all that means is that even if radiation is a random force you have several possibilities of action, none of which you can actively choose.

Since you missed my edit, I'll put it here.

You cannot create electricity? Huh. I think the Hoover Dam might have some issues with that.

Your brain turns energy from the food you eat INTO electricity. The same way a the Hoover dam turns potential energy from the water in the electricity.

Random bouncing atoms don't cause thought - your brain turning glucose into electricity does. So yes, your brain creates electricity. With PHYSICS. Not magic.

It staggers me how you can think you know anything about this issue when you don't even understand basic biology.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

The ignorance of what determinalism is on this thread is staggering. It is not following "societies" rules. Its accepting physics is a fact. And that your brain follows it. Give my any scenario and i can hypothetically make a computer to predict what will happen. You throw a ball, you fly a spac eship, your brain releases a hormone, i can hypothetically track the motion of every brain cell you have, every message it sends. You are a machine, a slave to physics, accept it.

Quantum mechanics kind of slipped you by, huh?

You mean uncertainty theory? Ill grant that this along with the schrodingers cat paradox does imply we cannot 100% predict every action, but the fact that an atom can bouce one way or another depending on what we observe doesnt grant free will. It only means you are a slave to a few possible actions, none of which are in your control.

Uncertainty theory? That's not a term used in physics; what exactly do you mean by it?

I was referring to the fact that everything is in fact a probability distribution. There is a limit to how much one can predict; your hypothetical computer is a physical impossibility (this is of course ignoring the fact that such a computer would be impossible to build even if the universe were in fact classical; such a computer would have to be `outside' the system).

This is an interesting point. Its true the computer would have to be outside the system. When you roll a dice you cant predict it can you? Doesnt change the fact that phsyics determins what it will be, and if you repeated said roll over and over in exact conditions (force applied ect) it would be identical results. The computer is hypothetical, the fact that prediction or not the actions WILL happen is the point.

 

[Princess Rose]

You've mis understood. Of couse you can make electricty. Also your cells mitochondria make electricy from ATP dyring respiration not in your brain, its everwhere. However this process is physics! And predictable. I mean create energy from NOTHING. And no you didnt just "generate" energy, you converted it from one type to another. Other than with fusion matter and energy are non interhchangable and can neither be created or destroyed.

Yes, the process if physics.

Yes, the conversion of electricity is predictable.

But you brain - your thoughts - determine WHICH CELLS transmit electricity at any given moment.

Your brain cells don't just transmit electrical impulses willy-nilly - and when they do, you have a SEIZURE - it's called epilepsy.

Your mind - created by your brain - chooses what to focus on. You make a CHOICE about what signals are sent.

I can choose to think about whatever I want. I can think about Doctor Who, if I like. Or about mushrooms. Or I can think about the work I need to do later. And as soon as I make that choice, my brain starts firing electrical impulses to the correct part of my brain to reference that material.

If you're going to go shouting about science, make sure you understand it past a grade 8 level.

 

[Lukeje]

...and if you repeated said roll over and over in exact conditions (force applied ect) it would be identical results.

Again. Quantum mechanics says differently. Yes, you're right for the majority of dice rolls. However it is not too difficult to conceptualize a dice roll that hinges on a particular result of a wavefunction collapse.

 

[DRes82]

Of course free will exists. The fact that we can ask that and question it is the greatest evidence that it is the case.

After all, you CAN starve yourself to death. You CAN choose to not eat. You'll be really hungry, but you can choose to not eat until you die. Monks have done so. It's not the best example, perhaps, but it does address your question above.

Are we influenced by everything around us? Of course. But, while that does affect our psyche, we can still choose to go against those urges. We can choose which urges to embrace, and how we embrace them.

I think the point is, you CAN do those things...but you won't. You've been conditioned to a point that you won't starve yourself. Those monks, they were going to starve themselves anyways because that's just how life conditioned them.

The choice you make is the one you are supposed to make, it can't be any different.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Im not kidding. Explain to me simply how, without the use of a god or magic force, you can randomly generate me a number from 1 to 10. The synapse that fires does so logically and from the reaction of molecules in your head. Does a molecule just change direction for no reason? Does electrity just become generated from nothing in your brain? All of which are moving under the laws of physics. Ill grant you schrodingers cat, but all that means is that even if radiation is a random force you have several possibilities of action, none of which you can actively choose.

Since you missed my edit, I'll put it here.

You cannot create electricity? Huh. I think the Hoover Dam might have some issues with that.

Your brain turns energy from the food you eat INTO electricity. The same way a the Hoover dam turns potential energy from the water in the electricity.

Random bouncing atoms don't cause thought - your brain turning glucose into electricity does. So yes, your brain creates electricity. With PHYSICS. Not magic.

It staggers me how you can think you know anything about this issue when you don't even understand basic biology.

Yes they do actually.

Let me get technical. Your brain is made from gray matter, all made of collected nerve cells that carry a change by ion movement over the membraine to create a potential difference that then opens the ion channels further down and thus move the charge around. The receptors on brain cells are made to connect such signals back to your various organs and limbs. FOr example the vagus nerve handles information carried from heart to brain and visa versa using the same system of carrying. You cannot MAKE energy from nowhere, it is RELEASED from a stored source - glucose. This is predictable because it follows the laws of physics. Stimuli cause ion channals to open and thus send messages to your brain. Thus i can predict when your synapses will fire, release the acetylecholine to reach the receptors that cause an action and thus your action. Ive tried to simplify my biological knowlegde to make my posts easier to understand.

I am no fool. I udnerstand biology very well, better than you id venture. I take a heavy interest in physics. Please dont assume to insult me. Ive asked questions and attempted to be civil. Your aggression is unncessessary.

Energy is RELEASED from respiration NOT CREATED. Im well aware of glycolosis and the kreb cycle. I study this at university. Biomedical microbiology. If you dont understand that energy RELEASE from compounds being broken and reformed is physics and thus predictable.

 

[2xDouble]

A thought struck me while reading the replies on the thread about what makes us human. A few mentioned free will. But lately I've been wondering if that really exists.

Considering biology, society, language and history affect all of us, do we really have free will as such, or are we governed by everything around us? After all, we can choose not to eat, for a time, but eventually have to if we want to survive. And then it's our body that decides if we want something spicy, sweet etc.

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

(Yes, I realise this thread's been done before, but not for quite some time. This thread again, but with new opinions, hopefully.)

Of course free will exists. The fact that we can ask that and question it is the greatest evidence that it is the case.

After all, you CAN starve yourself to death. You CAN choose to not eat. You'll be really hungry, but you can choose to not eat until you die. Monks have done so. It's not the best example, perhaps, but it does address your question above.

Are we influenced by everything around us? Of course. But, while that does affect our psyche, we can still choose to go against those urges. We can choose which urges to embrace, and how we embrace them.

Determinalism, nothing "magic" happens in the universe, only physics. 100% prediactable physics. So i can predict the motion, reaction and moves of your brain cells and predict every one of your actions. Google it.

You can "choose" to starve to death. But the atom that hits the receptor that sends the pulse to reject all food was set in motion a billion billion years ago when the big bang happened.

Honestly unless you are a fundamental christian and believe all science is lies i dont understand how you can believe in free will. How does "random" happen in your brain? DId that electrical charge in yoru brain just HAPPEN? Did you just create energy? Well done, all thermodynamics is a lie! Unless you render all physics moot, you cannot just change the way an atom bounces in your brain by magic, you cant create electricity from nothing in your mind to "choose" something.

Obviously you need to take a few more classes in biology, to understand the processes of where chemical energy and bioelectricity come from, and where it goes once expended. Then a class or two on neurochemistry to understand a little more about how the brain actually works. I guarantee you, nothing physics-defying there. Then take a few more computer science classes, to understand the ability to process data and what all is involved in decision-making. Nothing "magic" about it. Oh, and while you're at it, you should take a look at mathematics, specifically game theory and decision theory. You'll be amazed.

Here's a little more research material for you, it deals with what exactly is choice. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/choice-and-conflict

 

[Volodanti]

I'm not a fundamentalist Christian, but I believe in some free will, at least to some extent.

I think saying we have no free will is taking it a bit far, certainkly I think we are pre-inclined to make certain choices, but ultimately we can chose to deny these. Simply saying 'yes' or 'no' is oversimplifying things, because we often make descisions based on peer presure, but at the same time we occasionally do the opposite of what is expected.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

...and if you repeated said roll over and over in exact conditions (force applied ect) it would be identical results.

Again. Quantum mechanics says differently. Yes, you're right for the majority of dice rolls. However it is not too difficult to conceptualize a dice roll that hinges on a particular result of a wavefunction collapse.

Ill give you that one, however this seemingly random function doesnt mean we have a complete choice on our actions, rather that our actions are a random selection of a few possibilities.

 

[loc978]

I've always looked to the available option of apathy, inaction and eventual slow death as absolute proof of the existence of free will. After all

we can choose not to eat, for a time, but eventually have to if we want to survive.

^that right there is a choice, no matter how hard anyone wants to believe it isn't^

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

A thought struck me while reading the replies on the thread about what makes us human. A few mentioned free will. But lately I've been wondering if that really exists.

Considering biology, society, language and history affect all of us, do we really have free will as such, or are we governed by everything around us? After all, we can choose not to eat, for a time, but eventually have to if we want to survive. And then it's our body that decides if we want something spicy, sweet etc.

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

(Yes, I realise this thread's been done before, but not for quite some time. This thread again, but with new opinions, hopefully.)

Of course free will exists. The fact that we can ask that and question it is the greatest evidence that it is the case.

After all, you CAN starve yourself to death. You CAN choose to not eat. You'll be really hungry, but you can choose to not eat until you die. Monks have done so. It's not the best example, perhaps, but it does address your question above.

Are we influenced by everything around us? Of course. But, while that does affect our psyche, we can still choose to go against those urges. We can choose which urges to embrace, and how we embrace them.

Determinalism, nothing "magic" happens in the universe, only physics. 100% prediactable physics. So i can predict the motion, reaction and moves of your brain cells and predict every one of your actions. Google it.

You can "choose" to starve to death. But the atom that hits the receptor that sends the pulse to reject all food was set in motion a billion billion years ago when the big bang happened.

Honestly unless you are a fundamental christian and believe all science is lies i dont understand how you can believe in free will. How does "random" happen in your brain? DId that electrical charge in yoru brain just HAPPEN? Did you just create energy? Well done, all thermodynamics is a lie! Unless you render all physics moot, you cannot just change the way an atom bounces in your brain by magic, you cant create electricity from nothing in your mind to "choose" something.

Obviously you need to take a few more classes in biology, to understand the processes of where chemical energy and bioelectricity come from, and where it goes once expended. Then a class or two on neurochemistry to understand a little more about how the brain actually works. I guarantee you, nothing physics-defying there. Then take a few more computer science classes, to understand the ability to process data and what all is involved in decision-making. Nothing "magic" about it. Oh, and while you're at it, you should take a look at mathematics, specifically game theory and decision theory. You'll be amazed.

Here's a little more research material for you, it deals with what exactly is choice. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/choice-and-conflict

Please read my extra posts. I actually study chemistry computer science, biology and maths for A level. So far im going quad A on my grades. Im not an idiot. I understand what im talking about, i know nothing magic happens, thats my point. Surely if it is not randomised at all it is predictable no? I also understand the pseudo random numbers computers generate are actually made from a seed and a complex algorithm, ive written a few in python actually. I understand the process behind conduction in nerves both mylinated and not, and i understand how the ion gradiant makes message transfer predictable and physics based. Thus determinalism.

 

[6unn3r]

Go to work, send your kids to school
follow fashion, act normal
walk on the pavements, watch T.V.
save for your old age, obey the law
Repeat after me: "I am free"

Somtimes i do wonder if we arnt all sheeple from time to time but then again i can just get up from my seat and go out into the world and do whatever the fuck i want, would there be consequences? Probably, but i cant still try, and thats what makes it free will. The WILL to try and do it.

 

[trooper6]

I think in many ways, this question is not all that useful. Because we can never truly know the answer as this question is being debated (a billion years ago the big bang happened so it was inevitable that Debbie Gibson would become a pop star in the 1980s).

I'm a pretty practical person and think it is important to think through the implications of which position you are about to argue.

If you argue that there is no free will, that all of our actions are out of our control, then we can not then punish people for murder or crimes...because it wasn't them who did it, it was the big bang that caused those people to commit those crimes.

I think the idea that we have no control over our actions, including actions that oppress or harm other people, is socially dangerous...indeed anti-social.

Whether or not we have free will, I prefer to live in a society that believes in free will and also recognizes the effects of social environment on the possibilities we can inact our will upon. This allow us to do social justice work to try and improve the social environment of people to allow them more and better choices, but also gives us the ability to take action against members of our society making what we see as bad choices to rape, kill, rob, etc.

I don't want to live in a society where someone might walk up to me punch me in the face and say, "Sorry, I punched you in the face, it wasn't my fault, I had no choice but to do that. You know, the big bang."

 

[AngryPants]

Determinalism, nothing "magic" happens in the universe, only physics. 100% prediactable physics. So i can predict the motion, reaction and moves of your brain cells and predict every one of your actions. Google it.

You can "choose" to starve to death. But the atom that hits the receptor that sends the pulse to reject all food was set in motion a billion billion years ago when the big bang happened.

Honestly unless you are a fundamental christian and believe all science is lies i dont understand how you can believe in free will. How does "random" happen in your brain? DId that electrical charge in yoru brain just HAPPEN? Did you just create energy? Well done, all thermodynamics is a lie! Unless you render all physics moot, you cannot just change the way an atom bounces in your brain by magic, you cant create electricity from nothing in your mind to "choose" something.

This. Given enough information about every sub-particle in the universe, having the ultimate knowledge of how they interact (which we don't, but hypothetically it's possible), one may predict every event and every action of any person on small and insignificant planet as Earth.

The fact that ever-growing ego of human kind prevents individuals from recognizing it, by posing themselves (the human kind) as something special, that doesn't follow the ultimate rules of the universe, doesn't cancel the fact that we are only the very small part of it and are not special (or exceptional) in any way.

 

[Vivi22]

Anyway, it fails due to Schrodinger's Cat - as soon as you measure it, you change it, and thus render the measurement (and predictions) pointless.

Uncertainty theory simply means that we can either measure the position or velocity of subatomic particles, but not both simultaneously. Finding the answer to one introduces energy into the system which changes the value of the other, making it impossible to predict the motion of sub-atomic particles with certainty. But we're not talking about being able to predict the forces which act within us to determine our action, but whether we have any say to begin with.

I'd argue no since the motion of particles and distribution of energy in the Universe was set in motion the moment the Universe was created, and is not governed by random chance according to any scientific theories I know of (perhaps you know otherwise?). Predictability has nothing to do with the question of whether we have free will.

 

[zarguhl]

Well, if you have 100% unquestioning faith in the absolute correctness of contemporary physics, obviously there is no free will.

Let me know how that works out for you... You know, if you've been predetermined to do so.

 

[Lukeje]

...our actions are a random selection of a few possibilities.

Sounds like free will to me.

 

[2xDouble]

Please read my extra posts. I actually study chemistry computer science, biology and maths for A level. So far im going quad A on my grades. Im not an idiot. I understand what im talking about, i know nothing magic happens, thats my point. Surely if it is not randomised at all it is predictable no? I also understand the pseudo random numbers computers generate are actually made from a seed and a complex algorithm, ive written a few in python actually. I understand the process behind conduction in nerves both mylinated and not, and i understand how the ion gradiant makes message transfer predictable and physics based. Thus determinalism.

Message transfer, not message content.

So why are you here?