Does free will exist?

[Kiju]

Ugh. Philosophy.

Mmkay, here's my own personal opinion on your question, mister OP: Free will does exist. You make some valid points, I will not strike out against that. Yes our bodies will inevitably tell us to do something. However, it is entirely our choice on whether or not we really want to do it. Your body won't suddenly take control of itself and force you to eat, to take one of your examples for my own use.

But using your body as an example isn't really all that good, since half of the things our bodies do are on a subconscious level, and our minds aren't evolved enough to truly control what happens in that realm. For example, you can choose not to breathe, but you eventually will simply because your subconscious tells your body to just do it anyway.

A better example would be thus: We have free will, because we can choose the things we like and what we don't like. Inherently we will like certain things because of our background, upbringing, and familial surroundings. For example, one thing that really caught on when I was a kid was Tamagachi. But I didn't really want to get into it since it didn't sound fun to me.

This is a really deep subject, and not really something that should be discussed on a forum board for video games. If you want to talk about this topic, you would be muuuuuch better off going to a philosophy class in a university. Try it, it's a blast.

 

[JesterRaiin]

I find it difficult to understand why this is even a question. Free will is the ability to choose. If it's anything other than that it doesn't exist but it isn't.

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

Nope. There's no such thing as free will. Everything, every of our choices if determined by our configuration and surroundings.

I don't see how that negates free will. I answered this because I chose to. I chose to because I'm human. I don't see how step number two negates step number one.

Not exactly. Hmmmmmm, how to explain it.
Everyone understands "illusion of choice" scenario, however people seldom (i guess) think about different aspect of this matter - that we all often fail to understand our options.

Imagine that your body, mind and everything what makes you human is configured in that way that often you don't even see choice there where it is.

For example - take some caveman and place him in sci-fi environment. Let's say fully automated space battleship with Star Treki-ish, voice operated computer.

Technically, there are many choices to make. Someone with enough knowledge to interact with computer is capable of taking control over battleship, steer it to one of numerous solar systems, iginte war, become trader, mercenary, whatever.
What choices are availalbe for our primitive guy ? He can run around, make some "ugh, ugh", smack something with his bone-stone mace and that's all.

Is he free to make choices like you suggested ? Yes. No doubtly, nothing prevents him from doing whatever he wants.
Is he free to make as many choices as trained and experienced starfleet admiral ? No. He is capped by his body, intellect, lack of experience, understanding and environment.
Same thing with starfleet admiral. He is too experienced and sophisticated to walk through empty corridors, take a dump anywhere, scratch his hairy chest and ocassionaly roar like Tarzan.

Therefore, in my opinion they both aren't free willed. They are products of their surroundings, life, and basic (though evolving) configuration. Plenty of choices were "taken", "stolen" from both of them and now they operate only in narrow spectrum of their free will.

If i can ask, i'd like you to read this short text :
http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/mtwain/bl-mtwain-whatisman.htm

I am neither lazy nor thinking too highly about myself to explain what i think - simply, my english isn't good enough to defend my point of view and pretty every argument i could present is already covered in this masterpiece. So if you have spare minute or two...

 

[Soods]

I don't believe in free will, but this is a rather pointless question before we have a super computer that can calculate everything (even your thoughts!).

 

[J4RD]

Does it matter whether we have freewill or not?
If we do, that's great. Nothing changes.
If we don't, there's nothing we can do to change it.

When it comes down to it, I have a limited time on this Earth. Thinking about whether I have freewill or not isn't how I want to spend it.

 

[GLo Jones]

Snip

But you brain - your thoughts - determine WHICH CELLS transmit electricity at any given moment.

Well, from reading your debate, I see that this is the key point of which you're most likely both in disagreement. Rose, you are in the belief that your 'thoughts' determine the transmission of electricity and chemicals throughout the brain.

What I expect Biscuit would agree with me on though is that every one of your thoughts, and indeed your entire consciousness ARE those electrical and chemical interactions.

If you were able to take a snapshot of a person's brain. You would see a mass of electrical activity running through certain paths, and interacting in certain ways with other parts of the brain/body. These patterns of neural activity actually ARE the concepts in your mind at that exact moment. That electrical 'image' IS your consciousness at that moment.

You seem to refer to your mind as some kind of unidentifiable presence governing your brain's actions. THIS misunderstanding between you two is where I think any respectful discussion went downhill.

As for BiscuitTrouser, I've fought your corner so many times, but nowadays I pretty much see these debates as very similar to religious ones. No-one ever leaves them happy.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Snip

But you brain - your thoughts - determine WHICH CELLS transmit electricity at any given moment.

Well, from reading your debate, I see that this is the key point of which you're most likely both in disagreement. Rose, you are in the belief that your 'thoughts' determine the transmission of electricity and chemicals throughout the brain.

What I expect Biscuit would agree with me on though is that every one of your thoughts, and indeed your entire consciousness ARE those electrical and chemical interactions.

If you were able to take a snapshot of a person's brain. You would see a mass of electrical activity running through certain paths, and interacting in certain ways with other parts of the brain/body. These patterns of neural activity actually ARE the concepts in your mind at that exact moment. That electrical 'image' IS your consciousness at that moment.

You seem to refer to your mind as some kind of unidentifiable presence governing your brain's actions. THIS misunderstanding between you two is where I think any respectful discussion went downhill.

As for BiscuitTrouser, I've fought your corner so many times, but nowadays I pretty much see these debates as very similar to religious ones. No-one ever leaves them happy.

I agree, this spiraled poorly. I honestly wanted a fun dicussion, its a shame she got so angry at me... the hatred poured on me was intense. Electricity doesnt have content. It has presence. On and off. Nerve clusters form an image by triggering in an order. However i have to ask myself how does a 100% original image form, do i have synapses to display something new i have never coneaved or been inspired to make. For example a turtle headed rhino coloured red? This synapse combination must exist. Staggering.

Im glad she got a warning. Some of the things said were petty and spitefull and honestly the accusation of troll was hypocritical to the extreme.

Agreed. Which is why I said his argument was stupid. The guy clearly has no idea what he's talking about in regards to physics or biology. All this stuff about research - I bet he's getting it off of Wikipedia as fast as he can search it.

I'm getting pretty sick of this Biscuit Troll. I say we just ignore his obvious stupidity. Who's with me?

How contemptable. Im an A level student named Chris. I would not stoop to wiki such facts and the idea that somehow bismirching my name with other escapists would make her arguement stronger is utterly pathetic and beneath contempt. What a low petty scummy thing to do.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

Seeing as I chose to answer this question...yes.

If you want more proof just turn on a nature channel, you may have noticed that all animals act on impulse alone. Never will they really think about their choices, consider other possibilities. Place some food under a dogs nose it will always eat it. A human would choose to eat or choose to refuse it. This is what made us the dominate species.

 

[Fbuh]

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

Nope. There's no such thing as free will. Everything, every of our choices if determined by our configuration and surroundings.

But we can choose to ignore them if we want. MY answer is yes, we do have free will. However, most of the time, we use that free will to adhere to those configurations and surroundings. We choose to let life take us along, though any one of us could certainly break the mold if we wanted.

 

[Redingold]

A thought struck me while reading the replies on the thread about what makes us human. A few mentioned free will. But lately I've been wondering if that really exists.

Considering biology, society, language and history affect all of us, do we really have free will as such, or are we governed by everything around us? After all, we can choose not to eat, for a time, but eventually have to if we want to survive. And then it's our body that decides if we want something spicy, sweet etc.

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

(Yes, I realise this thread's been done before, but not for quite some time. This thread again, but with new opinions, hopefully.)

Of course free will exists. The fact that we can ask that and question it is the greatest evidence that it is the case.

After all, you CAN starve yourself to death. You CAN choose to not eat. You'll be really hungry, but you can choose to not eat until you die. Monks have done so. It's not the best example, perhaps, but it does address your question above.

Are we influenced by everything around us? Of course. But, while that does affect our psyche, we can still choose to go against those urges. We can choose which urges to embrace, and how we embrace them.

Determinalism, nothing "magic" happens in the universe, only physics. 100% prediactable physics. So i can predict the motion, reaction and moves of your brain cells and predict every one of your actions. Google it.

You can "choose" to starve to death. But the atom that hits the receptor that sends the pulse to reject all food was set in motion a billion billion years ago when the big bang happened.

Honestly unless you are a fundamental christian and believe all science is lies i dont understand how you can believe in free will. How does "random" happen in your brain? DId that electrical charge in yoru brain just HAPPEN? Did you just create energy? Well done, all thermodynamics is a lie! Unless you render all physics moot, you cannot just change the way an atom bounces in your brain by magic, you cant create electricity from nothing in your mind to "choose" something.

Quantum mechanics says no.

Not that random unpredictability is the same as choosing between clear alternatives, of course, but quantum mechanics ensures determinism is false. Try causality, instead. That still provides the same lack of free will while being consistent with the quantum (unless there's some weird-ass quantum effect where the future affects the past, and even then that wouldn't cause free will).

 

[Giest4life]

A thought struck me while reading the replies on the thread about what makes us human. A few mentioned free will. But lately I've been wondering if that really exists.

Considering biology, society, language and history affect all of us, do we really have free will as such, or are we governed by everything around us? After all, we can choose not to eat, for a time, but eventually have to if we want to survive. And then it's our body that decides if we want something spicy, sweet etc.

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

(Yes, I realise this thread's been done before, but not for quite some time. This thread again, but with new opinions, hopefully.)

Of course free will exists. The fact that we can ask that and question it is the greatest evidence that it is the case.

After all, you CAN starve yourself to death. You CAN choose to not eat. You'll be really hungry, but you can choose to not eat until you die. Monks have done so. It's not the best example, perhaps, but it does address your question above.

Are we influenced by everything around us? Of course. But, while that does affect our psyche, we can still choose to go against those urges. We can choose which urges to embrace, and how we embrace them.

Determinalism, nothing "magic" happens in the universe, only physics. 100% prediactable physics. So i can predict the motion, reaction and moves of your brain cells and predict every one of your actions. Google it.

You can "choose" to starve to death. But the atom that hits the receptor that sends the pulse to reject all food was set in motion a billion billion years ago when the big bang happened.

Honestly unless you are a fundamental christian and believe all science is lies i dont understand how you can believe in free will. How does "random" happen in your brain? DId that electrical charge in yoru brain just HAPPEN? Did you just create energy? Well done, all thermodynamics is a lie! Unless you render all physics moot, you cannot just change the way an atom bounces in your brain by magic, you cant create electricity from nothing in your mind to "choose" something.

I hate to break it to you, but if you know anything about Cartesian, Kantian, or Nietzschean philosophy, you might change your statement. Not making a statement about will, but about the fact that there are legitimate philosophies which are no where near Christianity (Kant and Descartes were still Christian though), but still produce free will.

 

[JesterRaiin]

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

Nope. There's no such thing as free will. Everything, every of our choices if determined by our configuration and surroundings.

But we can choose to ignore them if we want. (...)

There are times that we are granted with some control over ourselves and, unfortunately, there are occurences when we can do jack sh*t (pardon my French) and everything, every choice seems to be made for us. :|

 

[Whateveralot]

There are things we cannot control; we are here, you have a heritage, people will judge you based on their own standards, chance, randomness and coincidence.

Then there's the things we DO control. That's our free will. It's the things you do, the ways you react, the things you want and the things you end up doing.

Some people feel like they don't have free will and everything is determined and out of their influence. I call bullshit. Your choice will affect the many, the choices of the many will affect you, but ultimately; you decide how to react to the things you do not control yourself. No-one else can do that for you. That is your free will, and it does excist.

 

[Giest4life]

Haha is this a fucking joke or what? Clearly someone had nothing better to do than thinking about BS like this. What if blah blah, we might bla bla blah blah.... the whole discussion is irrelevant, you can think about this forever and you will never find an answer, never! Thus it doesn't fucking matter, just live your life!

Indeed. Would you be so kind to explain to us, 'useless folk', what, exactly, do you mean by the imperative "live your life?"

 

[nobleee]

I have not actually read through everything on this entire thread, so please point out if it already been mentioned. Now to the point; when it comes to whether free will exists or not, one only really have to consider interpreting Quantum Field Theory (QFT). Keep in mind though, at this point in physics we cannot really experimentally test it, at least not for now, seeing as to do this we need to achieve energies of around 10^19 eV. For this, at today's rate, we need an accelerator about the size of the known universe. Back to the point, the Hidden-Variables interpretation would make a deterministic universe, but considering the results of this paper [http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.5087] I personally do not believe in this interpretation. Yes, we have already established before that the universe is non-local, but still.

On the other side of the interpretations we have the Copenhagen interpretation, which would make a universe non-deterministic, since we only consider probabilities. However, the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment makes even less sense from this stand point.

And as you have maybe noticed I make it a point not to try explaining the interpretations themselves, since my explanation to would be biased, so for those who have never heard of these things before, google it or borrow a book from your local library.

P.S. I think I saw someone in this thread saying that the uncertainty principle is not experimentally tested. As a response I have to say that this can easily be done with two NaI-detectors and a sample of Co60 D.S

// nobleee

 

[Dinosaur_Face]

maybe we have it, maybe we don't. i think we have a free will but its easily affected by those around us

 

[Twilight_guy]

Depends on if you believe in quantum theory. If you don't then everything is deterministic and nothing can be free will, if you do then there is inherently some randomness in the universe and thus some room for choice.

 

[scar_47]

Yes of course free will exists, you don't have to survive its a choice. Granted we do have certain biological along with sociaitle pressure that can influence choices but again we are free to ignore these.

 

[Princess Rose]

What I expect Biscuit would agree with me on though is that every one of your thoughts, and indeed your entire consciousness ARE those electrical and chemical interactions.

If you were able to take a snapshot of a person's brain. You would see a mass of electrical activity running through certain paths, and interacting in certain ways with other parts of the brain/body. These patterns of neural activity actually ARE the concepts in your mind at that exact moment. That electrical 'image' IS your consciousness at that moment.

You seem to refer to your mind as some kind of unidentifiable presence governing your brain's actions. THIS misunderstanding between you two is where I think any respectful discussion went downhill.

That's just it - I am fully aware that the mind is made of those electrical impulses.

And, that massive electrical network, unlike any other kind of electrical network, can CHOOSE to alter itself.

The intelligent, conscious mind, created by that network, can choose which of those pathways get activated, and which do not. It can choose to think about Pink Elephants. It can choose to imagine them. Why? Just because.

That isn't predetermined. It isn't random either. It's chosen - something that doesn't normally occur in nature. Our neural network is so complex because it has the ability to affect itself - to change itself - to control itself.

That is free will, right there.

 

[BabySinclair]

There are two camps, neither of which can be proven correct.

Option 1) I chose to write this

Option 2) I am writing this because of the line of events that set this in motion, I cannot control the neurons firing in my brain and they are a spoke in the turning cog of our universe.

I find myself in camp 1 most the time but there are without a doubt instances in which free will doesn't apply and the way things are take over (usually instinctive reflexes.)

 

[GLo Jones]

What I expect Biscuit would agree with me on though is that every one of your thoughts, and indeed your entire consciousness ARE those electrical and chemical interactions.

If you were able to take a snapshot of a person's brain. You would see a mass of electrical activity running through certain paths, and interacting in certain ways with other parts of the brain/body. These patterns of neural activity actually ARE the concepts in your mind at that exact moment. That electrical 'image' IS your consciousness at that moment.

You seem to refer to your mind as some kind of unidentifiable presence governing your brain's actions. THIS misunderstanding between you two is where I think any respectful discussion went downhill.

The intelligent, conscious mind, created by that network, can choose which of those pathways get activated, and which do not. It can choose to think about Pink Elephants. It can choose to imagine them. Why? Just because.

It isn't 'just because' though. Nothing is 'just because'. There is a reason, a cause for everything.

I'm not going to argue this because I know that we will never agree. I simply ask that you not be so obnoxious when a simple "I disagree, because" will suffice.