One of the most important aspects of any joke you tell is the audience. I mean I wouldn't be caught dead telling dead baby jokes in a kindergarten, or sleazy lawyer jokes in front of a friend of mine who happens to be a lawyer[footnote]Though he might find one or two funny, but then he'd get ticked[/footnote].
On the other hand, my personal peeve is slapstick. I mean, what the hell, why does some poor sod have to go and get themselves mangled for your amusement!?
I will joke about anything. For me humor is how I react to absurd or tragic situations.
I'll also call anyone who takes issue or throws a fit about me doing so a **** who needs to mind their own gods-be-damned business. It's not like I'm announcing it on public television or purposely doing such things in a "sacred" place. You will find that all the examples listed above occurred within that particular comedian's "space". On their show, on their channel, or on their site.
The Dickwolves comic wasn't posted in a rape victims' care center, the Zero Punctuation "pantomime dames" thing wasn't played at Gaymer Con or whatever, and Tosh didn't make his rape joke at a rape victim's wake. Every single one of those scenarios required the audience to seek out that particular comic.
If the joke is made without malice then it's fine by me. Of course deciding if something was said with malice or not can be a difficult venture but I would always suggest erring on the side of caution and considering something someone said to not be malicious unless they prove it to be an opinion in context.
Rape, holocaust, Hiroshima & Nagasaki, dead babies, racist jokes, sexist jokes, trans jokes... it's all fair game. Just don't make those jokes in public or in areas where the focus is on the parties who would be directly offended.
I really don't like the whole demanding an apology for something someone found offensive, no you don't get an apology it's a joke, it's not serious it's that one person...or whatever that is taking it out of context throwing a hissifit and making it an issue when the joke is said and over and done with, move on.
No there's no real limit to jokes, if you're standing there mocking someone, in person with a group of friends and it's not really jokingly....that's ...really not a joke it's just being a dick, THEN there's a problem.
I heard jokes about 9/11 15 minutes after it happened, I live in NY, yeah it was offensive but whatever it was a joke.
I'm really not for censorship because again this falls under: Not liking the comedy routine? Leave, get your money back, change the channel and then let the rest who are enjoying, left to have fun.
I separate jokes into two categories: funny and not funny. Sometimes there is overlap between "not funny" and "offensive". On the other hand, Blazing Saddles is one of the most irreverent movies, with so many racial jokes, and is one of the funniest movies ever made, in my opinion.
Edit: Also, I've learned from personal experience that laughter truly does help with overcoming grief. Do I think disasters are funny? No. But if you can joke about it, it will help with overcoming the grief from that disaster, or death. It's much harder to do if it is a personal grief, so I wouldn't suggest even trying (at least, not out loud). That's why I don't mind jokes about the Holocaust, or 9/11. If we can joke about it, it shows that we will not be distracted by the past, and move on to learn from the mistakes made. Joking about school shootings shows that we will not get distracted and give the school shooters the seriousness they are going for.
While obviously humour has about ten million different shades of gray, if you really want a black and white answer, then I would have to say yes, you can joke about anything, and here's my personal reason for it.
Years and years ago back in university I remember having to write a paper about a commonly held (and more or less definitively proved) theory that people are more afraid of something (and therefore arguably more easily offended by it) if they have not experienced it. What that means is that someone who has never been mugged before will go far more out of their way (on average of course) to avoid being mugged than someone who has been mugged. Likewise, I myself was once raped. It was traumatic don't get me wrong, but I have been able to move on with my life and I can attest that I, and a group of eight other people who I was in a rape recovery therapy group with, absolutely loved to tell rape jokes. Now I'm not saying that we speak for all rape victims in the world, I'm not stupid, but I am saying that there was no way of pissing any of us off than to tell any one of us that we were being disrespectful to other victims by telling these jokes to one another. One time a good friend from that group and I were on a bus and we're just making small talk and I ask her how her boyfriend is doing and she answers that she's having problems since he called out the wrong name during sex. A concerned person sitting next to us decides to butt in and says that that is terrible, and asks what he said. So she replies that this is not the first time that this has happened and she finally told him that her name is Sam, not rape. I find that funny, the nosy person nearby did not. We are both entitled to our opinions of course but if I may be a little bit smug perhaps I am more qualified to decide what is offensive to a rape victim than someone who isn't?
And that's my problem with people who get offended by jokes, they often don't say that they are offended, but rather that they are being offended for someone else. I find it very offensive and patronizing to be told that I must be offended by what other people say about me, I can decide for myself. If you are offended, fine that's your right. But if you tell someone that your being offended makes you some sort of hero who is just trying to stand up for those poor oppressed souls who need your enlightened guidance, then you're just being an ass who is trying to justify your hatred by making it into something bigger. If you don't like something, just say that you don't like it, we won't think less of you because you're not doing it for a cause, but we will think less of you if you decide to speak for others besides yourselves and those very close to you.
The way I see it (and I'm surprised nobody else here has said it yet) is yes you can joke about anything, it's HOW you joke about it that is important and what CONTEXT you are putting it in. A good rule is to make it clear that you are dealing with sensitive material and do not want or intend to cause harm through it nor are you trying to advocate negative actions, culture, attitudes, or ideas. That way, some of the people who would be offended will better understand and hopefully tune out if they know you'll be joking about something they care about. This is easier and more appropriate to do as literally as I state here when you're a professional comedian or advocating for your comedic series to get on the air or in print.
Here's an example: The backlash against rape jokes while usually justified sometimes gets a little extreme. Saying a player "raped" you in a video game match is something that is put into context and is compared to a serious, often violent physical action against another human being. It is used as a framing device, so unless the person joking is using a very bigoted tone or hasn't made things clear there is no good reason, in my mind, for people to say that the joke is inappropriate and should never have been said. It's not making light of rape the way other rape jokes might.
With humor like that, people do have every right to get upset about it, but chances are you're using the joke around similar minded people and if not you should have made what I said earlier about explaining intentions clear. Honestly, it's not even really a joke even when it has comedic undertones; the word gets used in that sort of situation (the example) because, with a lot of power behind it, it can better put in perspective how badly you lost the match and how much you stink at the game compared to to the other player. It's about shock value.
So, those are my guidelines for all encompassing humor.
My five cents: There I two roots of this problem, at lest as far as I can see.
-People still don't understand that "I'm offended" does not equal "it's offensive". Just because a joke offends one person in a community it doesn't mean that the entire community is offended or that the joke is generally offensive just as me not greeting a guy I barely know on the street might offend him doesn't make silence automatically offensive.
-Political correctness, or at least it's modern mutations that we still call "political correctness" while it is actually nothing more than a shield for white-knighting loudmouths and people who want to prove how sensitive (read: holier than thou) they are. The problem with PC is that it allows people not part of a community to be offended in stead of those guys as well, thus exponentially increasing the first issue I brought up.
Again, these are my five cents, feel free to disagree.
I think what matters is what the underlying attitudes are.
Jokes where the punchline is 'he is gay', or something like that are offensive because the underlying assumption is that just being gay is a reason for ridicule. Most rape-jokes have this problem. We are expected to laugh because it happens to a guy/a woman who 'deserves' it etc.
Humor is subjective, but we can look at the underlying attitudes, and what the joke is on.
And jokes on minorities especially can be damaging because they misinform people, and can be used to confirm attitudes.
Majorities, or at least people who openly interact with rest of the society and are well represented in media and entertainment, aren't as harmed by jokes on them and their stereotypes. Because if you, for example, make a joke about Christians in the US, it's pretty likely that won't be the only or main source of info on Christians for people.
GabeZhul said:
My five cents: There I two roots of this problem, at lest as far as I can see.
-People still don't understand that "I'm offended" does not equal "it's offensive". Just because a joke offends one person in a community it doesn't mean that the entire community is offended or that the joke is generally offensive just as me not greeting a guy I barely know on the street might offend him doesn't make silence automatically offensive.
-Political correctness, or at least it's modern mutations that we still call "political correctness" while it is actually nothing more than a shield for white-knighting loudmouths and people who want to prove how sensitive (read: holier than thou) they are. The problem with PC is that it allows people not part of a community to be offended in stead of those guys as well, thus exponentially increasing the first issue I brought up.
Again, these are my five cents, feel free to disagree.
It's also a problem that just criticising something gets people who are seeing PC-white knights everywhere to get offended and assume the critic wants censorship.
That's a bane on the discussion on sexism in video-games, you can't criticise something without the counter-reaction on imagined threats.
And absolutely you can be offended at stuff not making fun of you. I might not be Romani but I do find jokes about how they all steal kinda offensive. Although it can be said that I'm also offended that someone assumes that I would find that funny.
People have told me I have offended them, but given that their reasons were either based on a misunderstading, or views I actually hold (being gay is ok, Christianity is not the one true religion, robot hyenas are cool) I'm fine with that and see no reason to change the stuff where I express those views when I get complaints.
But if I accidentally made a joke about stuff I don't actually stand behind, I would change it just like I would change a typo.
You think of a good joke. It will offend someone somewhere sometime. Maybe this instant, maybe tomorrow you find yourself with Messages (89) cursing and insulting and demanding sincere apologies (emphasis on SINCERE - they don't want you to apologize for offending them, because that can be twisted into some sort of patronizing - they want you to apologize for the joke itself, as well as your poor, poor taste). Can you or can you not make it, and be morally OK despite of it?
You think of a good joke. It will offend someone somewhere sometime. Maybe this instant, maybe tomorrow you find yourself with Messages (89) cursing and insulting and demanding sincere apologies (emphasis on SINCERE - they don't want you to apologize for offending them, because that can be twisted into some sort of patronizing - they want you to apologize for the joke itself, as well as your poor, poor taste). Can you or can you not make it, and be morally OK despite of it?
Suppose you think you know this person and don't think they'll find it offensive at all. That should cover up for you, right? Worst case scenario they turn out to be more sensitive than you thought they were.
Suppose you think you know this person and don't think they'll find it offensive at all. That should cover up for you, right? Worst case scenario they turn out to be more sensitive than you thought they were.
I'm of the opinion that your intent when telling the joke will usually cover you. If you were genuinely trying to be funny, then I couldn't really get mad. Exceptions obviously apply. Like if your sense of humour is so horribly off-colour that nobody could find it funny. Or if you're obviously trying to be funny, but at someone's extreme expense (See: bullying).
The example I usually give is making a dead baby joke to a woman who, unbeknownst to you, has recently suffered a miscarriage. Terrible faux pas, right? The appropriate response is not to then go "Fucken freedom of speech ***** I can say what I want!". Right?
But if your mission was to try and make the person laugh, I'm sure you'd immediately apologise. Which I think would be fine.
The Zero Punctuation's "Butthurt trans-brigade" demonstrated perfectly why this whole "Im SO offended by X."-Thing is stupid. The guy made regular jokes about Nazis, jews, dead babies, whatever. But one joke about transgender and _suddenly_ he crossed a line.
SimpleThunda said:
Jokes need to be made about EVERYTHING and no apology should be needed to anyone.
Not allowing certain jokes would mean censorship, and censorship is the worst thing that can happen to society.
Whether they're aids jokes, natural disaster jokes, WWII jokes, allah jokes. You should be able to write a joke about everything. No matter how many people you offend. It's their problem that they're offended by a joke.
Also this. You can certainly argue that a comedian makes jokes that you consider poor taste and thus you will not watch/listen to him any further. Thats something everyone can decide for himself. But demanding an apology, or "taking the joke back" is retarded. The "Im offended and demand an apology!"-shtick is just a way for butthurt attentionwh**es to...well be butthurt attentionwh**es. Noone cares that you're offended. Deal with it.
This whole thing of course applied to a situation where its comedy, and not some guy trying to deliberately piss off people. Going up to a rape-survivor and then announcing "lawl rape" is just stupid in itself, but i guess thats something most people will agree on by default.
It was allready mentioned, but for a perfect example on "butthurt audience", read up on the Dickwolves thing. Not only the comic itself, the "answer-comic" by the two guys from Penny Arcade had me on the floor. And the ensuing shitstorm is worth reading as well.
Nothing's beyond humor; to say otherwise is to completely miss the point. The whole point being that it's a positive experience, not a negative one. It's great for conflict resolution and as a coping mechanism or, at the very least, an easy way to make the best out of a bad situation. Those who would denounce it are actually contributing to the net negative experiences in the world. Good job, miserable hypocrites!
It's also worth stating that morality is a stupid, obsolete idea from the days when we thought naked guys with beards were responsible for lightning. We now know better about the one; there exists no valid excuse to hang on to the other. See, morality is just a normative description for the average but still wholly subjective feels evoked in response to stimuli. There's nothing at all to back it up besides what essentially amounts to bandwagon fallacy and appeal to emotion. Perhaps evolutionarily favorable emotion, which is... appeal to emotion by way of appeal to nature? Heh. Either way, the world belongs to the people who enjoy "insensitive" humor just as much as the people who decry it, and nothing Up There says you have to kowtow to their unreasonable demands. There isn't even enough to say that you should.
The sad thing is that the people who need humor the most are the ones who reject it. See, another thing for which it is good is reminding us that our subjective experiences aren't really all that big of a deal. All our joys, are sorrows and all things in between ultimately amount to precisely dick. Life itself is a joke and missing the punchline is, itself, a source of enormous angst.
I myself don't see any issues in making jokes about things people would see as immoral, I do it a lot myself.
But it's really a case of who is your audience? Are they people close to you that you know would accept that sort of thing or people you've just met and don't know if it would offend them?
Which is exactly why jokes that cross lines don't always come across well when told in a public environment, because you are telling them to many people with different standards and beliefs.
I agree with several of the things you said about humor and comedy. Similar to what you said, I liken a sense of humor to the ability to enjoy all that life offers. To further that, one of the greatest aspects of comedy is its ability to approach subjects/topics and otherwise taboo in general; therefore, comedy can bring attention to generally sensitive issues and topics in a way people can enjoy. Really, nothing beats comedy as the best form to discuss an issue. It's a miracle of human behavior but it's hampered by those that are unwilling to allow "certain" topics to be made fun of (and thus enjoy).
As for jokes being offensive or not, as you said, there's nothing morally wrong about telling a joke that was not meant to offend. Execution is crucial in the department of joke delivery; but when the nigh-entirety of the audience got the joke while only a handful of people feel offended, then these handful of people were already in the mindset to take offense. They were not there to have fun or at the very least, they will not allow such topics to be made fun of . These kinds of people, personally, are the actual, "No Fun Allowed" guys on the Internet.
Maybe a slight tangent, but despite the Internet being (arguably) an emerging source of social justice, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that there's some people so enveloped in the social justice scene that they can't escape that mindset, forgetting that the Internet can be a place to go find humor and that not everyone is out to offend or deride them. They'll watch a video they already know is made by people like yahtzee or a webcomic that they'd otherwise enjoy for the flavor of comedy being presented but they're still in social justice -mode (mindset). Thus, they'll paradoxically find something that will very likely offend them or bizarrely enough, they will feel offended in a person or person's stead they absolutely believe would be offended by what they just saw and/or heard...how fascinating.
I don't hate these people or have anything personal against them, hence why I am trying to understand them, but I hate how this mindset, however it came about, is destroying the range of (accepted) humor and expression typically found online. We're losing more and more people and places that would provide alternative brands of humor to petty misunderstandings by pressing unfortunate humorists to hand in their figurative license to joke about "certain" topics. (Internet) Censorship anyone?
As a footnote, I wish for the life of me I could remember the standup routine where George Carlin explained all of this better. So, I highly recommend any and all of George Carlin's amazing standup you can find online where he, among many other things, had a series of things to say about defending humor and comedy - and related (as a bonus), the danger of censorship and the many forms it comes in.
People should have the right to say (and joke) about anything they damn well please, and equally the right to respond to statements and jokes they find offensive and/or wrong. "It's just a joke" is NOT a blanket protection from critical responses. I certainly find the "how many niggers does it take to steal a bike?" jokes unpleasant as hell, and while I can take a few gay jokes in good humour they do get old rather quickly.
I think "tasteless jokes" are definently a thing, but it also very much depends on the person telling the joke, and how it is told. When someone apologizes for a joke they told it may just be to get the heat off their backs, and it may be the joke wasn't all that carefully considered, and when they think about it they realize it was in fact in poor taste and an apology is in order. I'd also like to add that I'm generally far too conflict-shy and not easily enough offended to actually want to confront someone when they make a joke I find unpleasant, though I imagine they are able to tell when I only smile polightly rather than laugh.
I think it's possible to joke about most subjects, but if it's going to be good or bad taste depends on who you're offending. Your rape joke makes who feel ridiculous? The victim or the rapist? Your jokes about racism makes the racist seems ridiculous or you stomp again on the heads of people who already suffer prejudice everyday? That's my filter when telling a joke: don't make someone miserable even more miserable.
Following this principle, whenever I make a joke that offends someone without a real good cause, I apologize soon after. I don't think that jokes exist in a vacuum, they carry moral values, political statements, judgements. The listener doesn't have a obligation to ignore it just because it's meant to be funny to another group. This is not censorship, I'm still free to joke about whatever I want after, but free speech carries responsabilities and consequences.
Just before reading this thread, I had read a news article about a joke incident here. A woman who was the biggest breast milk donor in the country was the target of a joke from a famous comedian. The joke was "She's almost breaking Kid Bengala's milking record!". Kid Bengala is a porn actor. The joke made her famous in her town and people started calling her "milking cow" in the streets. "Cow" is a very strong word here, with the same meaning of "*****". She's still donating milk, but much less than before because she became the town laughing stock and is ashamed of getting out of home.
So... if you want to throw shit in the fan just for the laughs, you better think really well. Silly jokes can have very real effects on people's lives.
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