Doing bad things

[Mossberg Shotty]

By your logic prostitution should be legal because an extremely small minority choose to do it willingly, as opposed to being forced into sex slavery? That's pretty flimsy logic. The bottom line is that prostitution is nothing but a detriment to society, spreading disease and dissent, and encouraging the notion that women are only valued as sex objects.

You're not really looking at the whole picture though - street prostitution is totally different from brothel-based prostitution, is totally different from high-class escorting, and there's all sorts of other stuff going on in between. I'd agree with what you say for the majority of street prostitution, but I'd agree with thaluikhain for some other types.

Also don't forget that not all sex workers are female. In fact, just this morning I heard an interview with two male prostitutes, both of whom seemed genuinely happy with their choices (and they were choices - these guys were well-educated, from normal, loving families, the lot. One of them was even an older guy who'd got into it in middle age). I've heard similar interviews with women in the past.

Not trying to dismiss the horrific experiences of a lot of prostitutes, but equally it's going way too far to claim that all prostitution is like that.

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to demonize prostitution, I am however demonizing the sex slave trade, because anyone would be hard-pressed to find an upside to that nightmare. I'm of the opinion that if you wanna have random, meaningless sex with strangers, that's fine. Promiscuity is a completely separate issue. Bang all the johns you want, whether you be male, female or whatever. But when money starts changing hands, that's when I get a little apprehensive about the whole thing.

Call me old fashioned, but I think certain things shouldn't be for sale. And I realize that some sex workers are men, and I know that some people enter into it of their own accord, for various reasons. But you have to acknowledge that it's a very, very small minority.

 

[Eamar]

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to demonize prostitution,

Ummmm... to quote you in the post I was responding to:

The bottom line is that prostitution is nothing but a detriment to society, spreading disease and dissent, and encouraging the notion that women are only valued as sex objects.

If you're not trying to demonize prostitution, you might want to re-word that, because as it stands that's exactly what you're doing.

I am however demonizing the sex slave trade, because anyone would be hard-pressed to find an upside to that nightmare.

Agreed, but that's not what anyone's been trying to do.

I'm of the opinion that if you wanna have random, meaningless sex with strangers, that's fine. Promiscuity is a completely separate issue. Bang all the johns you want, whether you be male, female or whatever.

Cool, but this isn't prostitution. "Johns" is a prostitution term.

But when money starts changing hands, that's when I get a little apprehensive about the whole thing.

So what you're saying is, the thing about prostitution that you start to feel uncomfortable with is... the whole fact that it's prostitution? You are aware of course that promiscuity is not the same as prostitution, and that the whole money changing hands thing is kinda the defining feature, right?

Call me old fashioned, but I think certain things shouldn't be for sale. And I realize that some sex workers are men, and I know that some people enter into it of their own accord, for various reasons.

Again, fine. But do you accept that just because you don't like something it doesn't necessarily mean it should be illegal (so long as everything's consensual as you just described)?

But you have to acknowledge that it's a very, very small minority.

Do I? It might very well be, but unless you have any actual statistics to hand I'd be hesitant to make any sort of guess as to the demographics of the sex industry. Just because something is overwhelmingly portrayed one way in the media doesn't mean that's an accurate representation of the overwhelming majority of cases. Or maybe it is. As I said, I have absolutely no idea, and I suspect you don't either.

 

[Mossberg Shotty]

Let me just clean that up a bit.

Ok, to start I think we have different definitions of the word 'demonizing'. I'm very clear about my opinion on the sex trade, i.e. dirty, devoid of meaning and exploitative, but that doesn't mean I'm running some kind of smear campaign. You won't see me protesting it in the street, not only because I don't feel that passionately about it but because it already is illegal. You realize that, right? I accept that something shouldn't be illegal just because I don't personally like, but in this case I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I know the term "Johns" usually denotes prostitution, but I was just talking about random sexual encounters at the time (where real names are often not given). Context is everything, so I urge you to pay attention. And I get that money changing hands is what makes it prostitution, don't need you to piece that one together for me, and I never said anything to the contrary. But you're right, I'm uncomfortable with the practice, if you haven't picked up on that already.

Do I? It might very well be, but unless you have any actual statistics to hand I'd be hesitant to make any sort of guess as to the demographics of the sex industry. Just because something is overwhelmingly portrayed one way in the media doesn't mean that's an accurate representation of the overwhelming majority of cases. Or maybe it is. As I said, I have absolutely no idea, and I suspect you don't either.

Yes, you do. Unless you're so arrogant as to ignore the overwhelming evidence. I'll provide a link, but here's an excerpt that I think you would find enlightening.

"In over 100 arrests, most of the women expressed that prostitution was not their career of choice. In a 1998 study, 88 percent of the prostituted women surveyed stated that they wanted to leave the sex trade industry.1 The majority of prostitutes interviewed by APD vice investigators believed that selling themselves was their only alternative for survival. Further investigation showed that these women shared similar circumstances that led them to prostitution. Many came from dysfunctional homes, had few friends or family members who cared about them, and were drug addicts or alcoholics. Arrest and contact data indicated that most of these women were between 18 and 29 years old. Unfortunate situations and poor choices made them vulnerable."

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/2013/March/prostitution-and-human-trafficking

From what I've read of your other posts on the Escapist in the past, you're a fan of random sexual encounters. Which is fine. But just because you don't care who you go to bed with, don't assume that none of these men/women don't.

 

[Eamar]

snip

I was about to say "no need to get sarky", but of course I threw the first stone on that front so that would be hypocritical. I apologise for that, I mostly knew what you were getting at but your wording was somewhat ambiguous in places and I may have poked fun at that.

I do take issue with the bit about "Johns" though. I assure you I was paying attention, and I'm aware context is important, but that doesn't mean you get to assign new meanings to words and expect me to catch on. Call me paranoid, but the fact that you've hinted at my own sexual activity several times now and then used a prostitution term in relation to such activity sure does make it look like a veiled insult. If that wasn't intentional, maybe you should pay more attention to context.

Yes, you do. Unless you're so arrogant as to ignore the overwhelming evidence. I'll provide a link, but here's an excerpt that I think you would find enlightening.

"In over 100 arrests, most of the women expressed that prostitution was not their career of choice. In a 1998 study, 88 percent of the prostituted women surveyed stated that they wanted to leave the sex trade industry.1 The majority of prostitutes interviewed by APD vice investigators believed that selling themselves was their only alternative for survival. Further investigation showed that these women shared similar circumstances that led them to prostitution. Many came from dysfunctional homes, had few friends or family members who cared about them, and were drug addicts or alcoholics. Arrest and contact data indicated that most of these women were between 18 and 29 years old. Unfortunate situations and poor choices made them vulnerable."

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/2013/March/prostitution-and-human-trafficking

Again, you miss my point (the first point I made in this conversation actually): the overwhelming majority of arrests are for street prostitution, which is not the sum total of all prostitution. I agreed with you about street prostitution in my first post.

And "arrogant"? Really? I made it clear what I was talking about (other types of sex work besides street prostitution) and you ignored me.

From what I've read of your other posts on the Escapist in the past, you're a fan of random sexual encounters. Which is fine. But just because you don't care who you go to bed with, don't assume that none of these men/women don't.

Ok, here's where I really start to have a problem with you. First off, sure I post about sex when it's relevant, but if that of all things is what you've picked up from "my posts on the Escapist" you've clearly only been reading certain types of thread. Most people go with "has an unhealthy Tolkien obsession" or "feminist." (<---- Because tone doesn't carry well on the internet - this part was typed with my tongue firmly in my cheek. If that's what you've gathered, that's what you've gathered.) In all seriousness though, trying to paint me as some sex-obsessed person who's unable to see things from other people's point of view is cheap and easily disproved by actually reading "my other posts on the Escapist."

I also resent the implication that I "don't care who I go to bed with". You've made it clear you don't approve, despite your insistence that it's "fine", but there's no need to say stuff like that.

Finally, your "you engage in a behaviour I don't like, therefore I can discredit your opinion" logic is pathetic. At no point did I bring my sexual preferences into this (in fact, I was careful NOT to conflate promiscuity with prostitution), and at no point did I claim to know the preferences or motivations of any prostitutes besides those who'd made that information available through interviews. Don't put words into my mouth, and don't you dare imply that just because I enjoy casual sex I automatically project my attitudes onto others.

 

[Mossberg Shotty]

snip

I was about to say "no need to get sarky", but of course I threw the first stone on that front so that would be hypocritical. I apologise for that, I mostly knew what you were getting at but your wording was somewhat ambiguous in places and I may have poked fun at that.

If you're going to set a precedence, don't get upset when I stick to it. But at least you're showing a bit of self-awareness.

I do take issue with the bit about "Johns" though. I assure you I was paying attention, and I'm aware context is important, but that doesn't mean you get to assign new meanings to words and expect me to catch on. Call me paranoid, but the fact that you've hinted at my own sexual activity several times now and then used a prostitution term in relation to such activity sure does make it look like a veiled insult. If that wasn't intentional, maybe you should pay more attention to context.

I'll concede to that, maybe I should've specified a bit more. But really, I've made references to your sexual activity "several times"? I think I brought it up once, and it seemed strangely relevant. I'm not persecuting you for that, I've been known to share my sexual exploits with The Escapists as well, though not so much recently.

Ok, here's where I really start to have a problem with you. First off, sure I post about sex when it's relevant, but if that of all things is what you've picked up from "my posts on the Escapist" you've clearly only been reading certain types of thread. Most people go with "has an unhealthy Tolkien obsession" or "feminist." (<---- Because tone doesn't carry well on the internet - this part was typed with my tongue firmly in my cheek. If that's what you've gathered, that's what you've gathered.) In all seriousness though, trying to paint me as some sex-obsessed person who's unable to see things from other people's point of view is cheap and easily disproved by actually reading "my other posts on the Escapist."

I guess I regret that you "have a problem with me" but there's no helping that. I don't just frequent certain types of threads, I would like to think I'm pretty varied. Sure I occasionally find myself in a sex-centric topic, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with that. Just because I oppose prostitution doesn't mean I have some kind of aversion to sex (I enjoy it quite a bit) and I don't think anyone would describe my appearance or demeanor as prudish, I hope that's not the impression I was giving off. Though I would never have pegged you as a feminist, I've never seen one that was such a huge advocate of prostitution.

I also resent the implication that I "don't care who I go to bed with". You've made it clear you don't approve, despite your insistence that it's "fine", but there's no need to say stuff like that.

Finally, your "you engage in a behaviour I don't like, therefore I can discredit your opinion" logic is pathetic. At no point did I bring my sexual preferences into this (in fact, I was careful NOT to conflate promiscuity with prostitution), and at no point did I claim to know the preferences or motivations of any prostitutes besides those who'd made that information available through interviews. Don't put words into my mouth, and don't you dare imply that just because I enjoy casual sex I automatically project my attitudes onto others.

Ok, maybe I went a grain of sand too far with that comment, and I apologize.

I don't recall using that logic, and I never said I disapprove of your supposed lifestyle. I only recall using an article to discredit your opinion, not my actual opinions, though they do seem to agree with each other. As far me assuming that you're projecting, well, I'm pretty sure you are. It's kind of hard not to see a pattern there. I didn't mean to be overly-aggressive, and I think we got off on the wrong foot.

I'll admit that prostitution isn't an all-consuming force for malevolence if you can admit that maybe the sex trade has it's flaws?

 

[Eamar]

Though I would never have pegged you as a feminist, I've never seen one that was such a huge advocate of prostitution.

I'm a huge advocate of women being free to do whatever they please with their own bodies and sexualities, including prostitution (and other forms of sex work) if that's what they choose. It's really quite a common position in third wave feminism and it's something that gets discussed a lot in feminist circles.

I'll admit that prostitution isn't an all-consuming force for malevolence if you can admit that maybe the sex trade has it's flaws?

But... I've been doing that all the way through this discussion! Do you honestly not see that? My original point (which I've repeated several times now) is that while sex slavery is obviously abominable and there are massive problems with a lot of street prostitution, there are other forms of prostitution that aren't so black and white. I'll ask again: do you actually have any information on the number of street prostitutes vs the numbers of escorts, brothel-based prostitutes (this is legal in some parts of the world, including Nevada in the US), and others? I'm not claiming those others would all be happy or be a majority, and I never have, I just don't think they necessarily represent such a "tiny, tiny fraction" as you claim.

Seriously, if either of us has been showing a less black and white attitude towards prostitution, it's me.

 

[Fox12]

Good and bad is a matter of perception.

I'm glad you noticed that. Part of my interest in making this thread was to see what various people considered "bad."

Because we know "bad." It's the opposite of "good." Doing something bad is doing something not good. We all do things that are bad, but which of our actions would we directly classify that way?

Hey, man, as long as you aren't hurting anybody, I don't really care. You mentioned avoiding the prostitution thing because you didn't want to support a corrupt system, so you don't seem to want to hurt people. I don't really care one way or the other about victimless crimes.

That said, you also have to be willing to accept responsibility for your actions, whatever they are. Do I think Lord Byron was a bad person for partying hard, and sleeping around with people? Not really, but several of his lovers committed suicide, and he basically abandoned his children, because he couldn't be bothered to change his lifestyle. That brand of hedonism is pretty shitty. Just bare that in mind when people bring up the whole "evil is a point of view" bit.

 

[Cerebrawl]

While I agree that women should be allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies, including prostitution, the sad fact of the matter is that a lot of the time it's human trafficing behind it, actual slavery, and even when it's not, there's often force, threats and drug addiction involved as well.

Happy prostitutes are few and far between.

Personally I've stayed away from using them for moral reasons, even those that seem happy or are obviously doing it of their own free will(I've been to Thailand 3 times). Part of that is because I ascribe to the idea that thinking of people as commodities instead of persons is a step towards evil.

Oh and OP, is this your song?

Spoiler: Danko Jones - I Think Bad Thoughts

 

[Ambitiousmould]

Well I don't do bad things, but ultimately, I am a bad person. For instance, I do everything my mother asks of me, but I tend to be a dick to people who try to talk with me, like the person who noticed I was on the Games Workshop site at college and said "Oh cool, I like Warhammer too" so I said "Oh good, common ground for us not to talk about" and promptly left.

You know how there's that saying 'every group has that one guy who's a dick, and you keep meeting up with him because every time you think he might have changed, but never does. And if you don't think your group has one, you're it'.
I'm that guy. It's a wonder I have any friends at all.

 

[Ieyke]

Good and bad is a matter of perception.

That being said, i'm a terrible person. But as the kids these days say " you only live once" ( or yolo if you're a hipster).

^The motto of people who should be shot.


Anyhow,
I'm the best person you can know.
And I'm a merciless, "terrible" person.
Depends on the situation and the people involved.

 

[Padwolf]

I have to say, OP, I feel sorry for your tourmate. Having been around so many "badasses" and such, I grow tiresome of the same tales day in and day out. "Oh my god you should have seen how smooth I was taking this from the shop!" and "Oh my god I'm doing this illegal thing and that!" I'm sorry but it doesn't impress me in the slightest and the constant talking about it just makes me sigh with boredom and a little mixture of pity. It's like a teenager saying "Hahahaha I dropped out of school just because I didn't like it!" and boasting about it, no one cares, no one is impressed and more importantly, really, we're meant to praise and encourage such behaviour?

Maybe I'm just too old for this thread. Kind of sad since I'm only 22.