Mr. Croshaw, you should know by now that trying to do anything to improve the quality of the gaming community is a futile and wasted effort.
Don't Use the Word "Gamer"
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
I have no problem with the term to be honest. The complaint that Yahtzee seems to be making is that the label is accurate, and that's not fair to the non-nerd population that also play games and don't want to be lumped in with them.
I do understand where he's coming from though. Truthfully the term "gamer" for most of my life was mostly spent referring to people who played paper and pencil RPGs. For a long time it was something of a badge of honor and empowerment because you were dealing with a lot of very smart people. The industry started dumbing things down and trying to go increasingly mainstream. You wound up getting people involved who were not "smart nerds" but simply social rejects, this dragged things down. Kids were being brought into the hobby by differant marketing, and you even saw shifts from a situation where kids were a minority in the hobby (and mentioned in say the Forum of Dragon Magazine as one of the issues), to where they made up the majority of PnP gamers (and this of course also became a topic of discussion in things like the Forum of Dragon Magazine). At some point we got away from a collegiate level hobby where you might have one player out of a thousand (in the then much smaller community) who was a kid able to do it and see respect, to a situation where PnP RPGs became a stereotypical refuge for especially reject-worthy high school freshmen who couldn't even be redeemed by their relative intelligence. Compare say the current edition D&D books to the first edition of AD&D and the language that was used. That says a lot about the people that played and the requirements to understand one of these games.
As someone who rode the PnP bus as it went down in flames, watching as things changed, I can say that there was a lot of resentment similar to what Yahtzee seems to be feeling. A desire to differentiate yourself from the guys who got into the hobby when it expanded. I started gaming young, and had a lot of problems (as I've mentioned before), but I will say that I have met gamers that can almost inflict physical pain on me just by hearing them talk about gaming, and as much of a wreck as I am can sit there and go "that's what I've been associated with?".
It might be a passing distinction, but someone with a big huge brain (even if they are not smart in any practical way), who tends to be slobbish and socially awkward has some redeeming issues because he's ridiculously smart and knows all kinds of stuff. In many cases being like that because they are operating on a somewhat differant level from the norm. On the other hand someone who is like that and dumb, or simply of average intelligence, with no real base of knowlege, practical or otherwise, is simply a slob. To a lot of those people gaming is a way to try and justify themselves by latching on to a similar seeming group of people.
This is similar when it comes to video gaming, the current use for "gamer" in that the industry has also dumbed down, and gone mainstream. You have bucketloads of people streaming into the hobby, and acting like there is something to be proud of in being a "gamer" when any pride that could have come from that was washed away in lowering the bar to the point where they could be one.
To sort of put things into perspective, let's look at my favorite genere: RPGs. I love deep RPGs with tons of cutomization, items, stats, skills, and massive networks of spreadsheet like menus and sub-menus. All the stuff Yahtzee hates ironically given this message. I get a ridiculous amount of enjoyment out of tweaking variables and then watching what happens when I hit the "attack" button or whatever. I also like large, complex game worlds that take a lot of time and effort to get everything out of. However, today look at how most RPGs are simplified. Most of the games of the genere get by as being "challenging" or "hardcore" purely on length. Sometimes with an epic RPG I feel like the biggest challenge is being able to stick with it for 100+ hours of gameplay which no sane person would endure, with little going on to justify that. I mean, heck half the RPGs today basically play themselves (like the last two Final Fantasy games), and in a lot of cases the stats aren't much more complicated than playing "Rock Paper Scissors" where you can see what your opponent is going to throw ahead of time (ie use X, to counter Y... repete ad infinium), with that being not an aspect of combat, but the entire principle it's based on. Rock, Paper, Scissors never being a really intellectual passtime.
Truthfully I will also say that I think the term "gamer" exists to exclude normal guys like Yahtzee mentions. I mean that's because they are normal guys, not hobbyists. Above and beyond the quality of gamers the point is that those who "wear" that label good or bad are not involved in gaming as a passing amusement. The label "gamer" is used by those who employ it to diffentiate themselves from the mainstream. Right now you have divisions within the "gamer community" looking for sub labels.
At any rate, I guess all of this amounts to yet another expected "I am gamer, here me whine" rant.
I also can't complain too much because face it, I'm a broken unit physically and mentally. I fit every negative stereotype about gamers. I'm fat, have glasses, live at home, and others assorted things. I do however shower daily and don't smell of anything, and am clean shaven whenever I go out of the house.
I do understand where he's coming from though. Truthfully the term "gamer" for most of my life was mostly spent referring to people who played paper and pencil RPGs. For a long time it was something of a badge of honor and empowerment because you were dealing with a lot of very smart people. The industry started dumbing things down and trying to go increasingly mainstream. You wound up getting people involved who were not "smart nerds" but simply social rejects, this dragged things down. Kids were being brought into the hobby by differant marketing, and you even saw shifts from a situation where kids were a minority in the hobby (and mentioned in say the Forum of Dragon Magazine as one of the issues), to where they made up the majority of PnP gamers (and this of course also became a topic of discussion in things like the Forum of Dragon Magazine). At some point we got away from a collegiate level hobby where you might have one player out of a thousand (in the then much smaller community) who was a kid able to do it and see respect, to a situation where PnP RPGs became a stereotypical refuge for especially reject-worthy high school freshmen who couldn't even be redeemed by their relative intelligence. Compare say the current edition D&D books to the first edition of AD&D and the language that was used. That says a lot about the people that played and the requirements to understand one of these games.
As someone who rode the PnP bus as it went down in flames, watching as things changed, I can say that there was a lot of resentment similar to what Yahtzee seems to be feeling. A desire to differentiate yourself from the guys who got into the hobby when it expanded. I started gaming young, and had a lot of problems (as I've mentioned before), but I will say that I have met gamers that can almost inflict physical pain on me just by hearing them talk about gaming, and as much of a wreck as I am can sit there and go "that's what I've been associated with?".
It might be a passing distinction, but someone with a big huge brain (even if they are not smart in any practical way), who tends to be slobbish and socially awkward has some redeeming issues because he's ridiculously smart and knows all kinds of stuff. In many cases being like that because they are operating on a somewhat differant level from the norm. On the other hand someone who is like that and dumb, or simply of average intelligence, with no real base of knowlege, practical or otherwise, is simply a slob. To a lot of those people gaming is a way to try and justify themselves by latching on to a similar seeming group of people.
This is similar when it comes to video gaming, the current use for "gamer" in that the industry has also dumbed down, and gone mainstream. You have bucketloads of people streaming into the hobby, and acting like there is something to be proud of in being a "gamer" when any pride that could have come from that was washed away in lowering the bar to the point where they could be one.
To sort of put things into perspective, let's look at my favorite genere: RPGs. I love deep RPGs with tons of cutomization, items, stats, skills, and massive networks of spreadsheet like menus and sub-menus. All the stuff Yahtzee hates ironically given this message. I get a ridiculous amount of enjoyment out of tweaking variables and then watching what happens when I hit the "attack" button or whatever. I also like large, complex game worlds that take a lot of time and effort to get everything out of. However, today look at how most RPGs are simplified. Most of the games of the genere get by as being "challenging" or "hardcore" purely on length. Sometimes with an epic RPG I feel like the biggest challenge is being able to stick with it for 100+ hours of gameplay which no sane person would endure, with little going on to justify that. I mean, heck half the RPGs today basically play themselves (like the last two Final Fantasy games), and in a lot of cases the stats aren't much more complicated than playing "Rock Paper Scissors" where you can see what your opponent is going to throw ahead of time (ie use X, to counter Y... repete ad infinium), with that being not an aspect of combat, but the entire principle it's based on. Rock, Paper, Scissors never being a really intellectual passtime.
Truthfully I will also say that I think the term "gamer" exists to exclude normal guys like Yahtzee mentions. I mean that's because they are normal guys, not hobbyists. Above and beyond the quality of gamers the point is that those who "wear" that label good or bad are not involved in gaming as a passing amusement. The label "gamer" is used by those who employ it to diffentiate themselves from the mainstream. Right now you have divisions within the "gamer community" looking for sub labels.
At any rate, I guess all of this amounts to yet another expected "I am gamer, here me whine" rant.
I also can't complain too much because face it, I'm a broken unit physically and mentally. I fit every negative stereotype about gamers. I'm fat, have glasses, live at home, and others assorted things. I do however shower daily and don't smell of anything, and am clean shaven whenever I go out of the house.
Generally I want to agree with Yahtzee on stuff like this, but here I have to disagree. Yes, the word gamer has a certain image associated with it. However, the only way to get rid of that image is keep using it. When more "normal" people start calling themselves gamers and not just the sweaty, Cheeto-dust covered nerds who live in their parent's basements, the stereotype will go away or at least lose some of the severity.
I'm also really confused by this idea that the word gamer is meant to hold some level of pseudo-prestige. Since when? Last I checked being called a gamer was basically just different way to call yourself a nerd or a geek by focusing on one thing. What's wrong with actually owning it rather than letting it be something that gets to you? It's like a fat guy saying "yeah, I'm fat, and?" rather than getting all huffy about it.
I do kinda agree on the girl gamer thing though. Speaking as a girl who plays games and does so frequently, the "girl gamers" are really annoying. For one, most of them aren't. "Girl gamers" tend to be girls who played Halo and Guitar hero at their boyfriend's a few times and over heard a few of his friends say "Wow your girlfriend plays with you? That's awesome" and suddenly thought they were some rare species. The word gamer, to me anyway, indicates someone who has a love and a rather extensive knowledge of at least one genre.. not just a passing interest in a handful of games they occasionally play. I, for example, specialize in JRPGs and have a collection of over 100 spanning from the SNES to PS3.
In short, Keep the word Gamer, own it and love it. If you don't want to be considered a stereotype.. wash your hands, lose the weight and get a job. "Girl Gamers" bring a bad name to female gamers everywhere.
I'm also really confused by this idea that the word gamer is meant to hold some level of pseudo-prestige. Since when? Last I checked being called a gamer was basically just different way to call yourself a nerd or a geek by focusing on one thing. What's wrong with actually owning it rather than letting it be something that gets to you? It's like a fat guy saying "yeah, I'm fat, and?" rather than getting all huffy about it.
I do kinda agree on the girl gamer thing though. Speaking as a girl who plays games and does so frequently, the "girl gamers" are really annoying. For one, most of them aren't. "Girl gamers" tend to be girls who played Halo and Guitar hero at their boyfriend's a few times and over heard a few of his friends say "Wow your girlfriend plays with you? That's awesome" and suddenly thought they were some rare species. The word gamer, to me anyway, indicates someone who has a love and a rather extensive knowledge of at least one genre.. not just a passing interest in a handful of games they occasionally play. I, for example, specialize in JRPGs and have a collection of over 100 spanning from the SNES to PS3.
In short, Keep the word Gamer, own it and love it. If you don't want to be considered a stereotype.. wash your hands, lose the weight and get a job. "Girl Gamers" bring a bad name to female gamers everywhere.
Not ashamed about playing games. Ashamed to be associated with the lable of "gamer". When lables come into play I've actually preferred to be associated with the label "casual gamer" for the very reason that it doesn't associate me with the bleached-skin lactase-scented crowd. I don't play The Sims or anything, I just might not play games as much as my game-playing friends and certainly not with the same ferocity as some - hense "casual".
But if this need for being labled extended beyond "gamer" it would get ridiculous. To define oneself by one of your interests is stupid, (even if it is your ONLY interest.)
But if this need for being labled extended beyond "gamer" it would get ridiculous. To define oneself by one of your interests is stupid, (even if it is your ONLY interest.)
Irridium said:If you really want to be classified as "gamer", I have a handy dandy little chart so you can see what kind of gamer you are.
However thats only if you consider yourself a gamer, instead of simply "someone who play games".
Great. Well I guess I was a bit of console fag that made the transition to pcfag and nostalgia fag. Its a bit true tough, no more games like Planescape torment, Thief or Homeworld these days. But these days iam just a guy who actually likes videogames, most weekends i just beg my cousin to play a bit of street fighter 4 on his Ps3.
Thank you Yahtzee, I hate it when people refer to themselves as gamers. People on Youtube who call themselves professional gamers are the worst of them all! I like to troll them by calling them professional couch potatoes, they get mad every time. But seriously, I know of a certain neckbeard who refers to himself as a gamer and he fills out every stereotype imaginable. He doesn't play Guitar Hero but if he did, he'd totally be one of those guys playing Dragonforce to see if anyone is watching.
There's a word for someone who follows and enjoys movies. 'Movie buff' isn't a disrespectful term, but there isn't really a title for someone (barring 'gamer') who enjoy video games to the same extant.
I know the message is not to title people, and not to proclaim one's gaming interest. I just wanna know when it's okay to nerd out.
I know the message is not to title people, and not to proclaim one's gaming interest. I just wanna know when it's okay to nerd out.
I haven't used the word gamer since the old Hospot crew. Rich Gallup and Jeff Gerstmann took that word right out of my vocabulary. I still wince whenever I hear anyone say it. It just screams "marketing". Especially "hardcore gamer". Ugh.
it's good that you're taking a break, everyone needs to get away for some chill time at least once in a while
I ride escalators, use elevators, drive cars, talk on the phone, run, walk, jog, swim, breathe, eat, laugh, and observe.
By the same logic of calling myself a gamer, I am therefor a escalator-rider, elevator user, driver, talker, runner, walker, jogger, swimmer, breather, eater, laugher, and observer. (SC joke)
Do I use these things to define me? No. In the same sense I don't use gamer to define me. It's a fairly easy term to get rid of.
By the same logic of calling myself a gamer, I am therefor a escalator-rider, elevator user, driver, talker, runner, walker, jogger, swimmer, breather, eater, laugher, and observer. (SC joke)
Do I use these things to define me? No. In the same sense I don't use gamer to define me. It's a fairly easy term to get rid of.
Sylveria said:
There has been an association with intelligence attached to the term "gamer". At one time you had to be pretty smart to play a game of Paper and Pencil RPG, as the rules were written by college nerds, for other college nerds. When it came to video gaming playing games like RPGs took a lot of intelligence to figure them out and derive satisfaction from them. Heck, simply being able to get a lot of games to work took a decent understanding of computers and hardware.
Both with PnP and Video games they went mainstream, dumbed themselves down for a bigger audience, and with that audience came a lot of people with few, if any redeeming qualities.
To put things into perspective, an old school "gamer" of either sort could be a morbidly obese, or painfully thin nerd, with relatively bad personal hygiene, and no social skills and get a degree of respect for having a gigantic brain, even if not smart in any practical way. You had to be pretty bright to figure out how to play 1st Edition AD&D, or get a lot of computer games to even run on a system. Believe it or not there was a time when everything ran from a DOS prompt, and you need to know port settings for your graphics and video cards just to run a normal installation (never mind mess around with anything). While I'm barely proficient with windows nowadays (due to a lack of caring anymore), as a gamer I used to get called upon to do minor troubleshooting for systems all the bloody time (and used to be able to do it).
The thing is though that the games dumbed down, the systems became simpler, and you wound up with the mainstream in the gaming community. With the requirements lowered you wind up with people who are simply pathetic flocking into gaming, people who might live like some of the original gamers, except without any real redeeming characteristics. Today "that guy" is a slob because he's a slob, not because he's operating on a slightly differant wavelength, but actually knows and can do a lot of differant stuff.
While an exagerration (an extreme one) look at say the old "Revenge Of The Nerds" movies as the stereotype, and it also being funny as an exagerrated cautionary tale. It's also the classic definition from which things like the Best Buy "Geek Squad" draw their name (need to fix a computer? call a nerd...).
The problem is that today gamers are less like the guys exagerrated for those movies, and more like the kind of guys exagerrated for "Beavis and Butthead".
When looking at a "gamer" today a lot of them aren't likely to have a very well thought out opinion on anything. Most of them really can't do anything other than play increasingly simple games, and probably never were able to do anything before now either.
I pretty much match the quintessential depiction of the "gamer" today, but I at least did stuff (or tried). That's one of the reasons why I'm a bit elitist and judgemental, and why I go off about the evils of gaming becoming mainstream. Objectively I guess the new tech is better, but it did kind of ruin the community. Plus I'll admit that the past always seems better when it's the past. I'm self aware to realize that a lot of what I think about the fandom community (games, comics, pnp RPGs, etc..) is sort of like an aging baby boomer thinking back to the 1960s when he was a hippy through a haze of "never was". Sad given that I'm only 35, but when your forced into retirement all you have to do is rant about junk like this.
I never say I'm a gamer, and definately never a girl gamer. I usually say I like videogames, which gets me strange looks (I'm a woman). Or sometimes they ask me if I like the Sims. I dispize those games.
I always felt that gamer refered to someone who played all the time, like everyday for a few hours at least. I don't play that frequently so I never call myself a gamer.
I always felt that gamer refered to someone who played all the time, like everyday for a few hours at least. I don't play that frequently so I never call myself a gamer.
1. The good thing with me is that I do not look like a guy who enjoys gaming a lot. And if someone does indeed think I am a no lifer that plays dragonforce and look if anyone blah blah blah... I don't care! Why should I care what some schmuck somewhere thinks? Although I do agree that stereotypes can go die in a fire.
2. That guy that got mad about Aerith amused me. Yahtzee set up a trap, with a big sign over it reading "THIS IS A TRAP FOR WHINERS" and still someone managed to walk into it xD
3. No ZP or XP? Benjamin Croshaw I am VERY disappointed in you! HOW DARE YOU want to take a vacation instead of working on FREE material for us? Do I pay 0$ every Wednesday just to get NOTHING?
[small]Have fun and get some rest sir, you've fucking earned it more than anyone! Though I am sure that returning home only to find a pile of work waiting for you is a real bummer
[/small]
2. That guy that got mad about Aerith amused me. Yahtzee set up a trap, with a big sign over it reading "THIS IS A TRAP FOR WHINERS" and still someone managed to walk into it xD
3. No ZP or XP? Benjamin Croshaw I am VERY disappointed in you! HOW DARE YOU want to take a vacation instead of working on FREE material for us? Do I pay 0$ every Wednesday just to get NOTHING?
[small]Have fun and get some rest sir, you've fucking earned it more than anyone! Though I am sure that returning home only to find a pile of work waiting for you is a real bummer
[/small]
Successful troll is successful? Or sad person is sad?derelix said:
Games are fun. I don't think anyone thinks they're some amazing thing that no one else in the world has experienced. "Try it mann it's cool." Or maybe a bit sadistic? You assume because people agree with something written, they didn't think that before. Theres an agree and disagree side of this argument 50/50 chance you end up on either side. Also, this for you.
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png
And another thing, people who play games aren't hipsters. Far far from it.
I have no issue with label "gamer." When it comes up in conversation, I tell people that I play video games, if they have some issue with this I couldn't care less and we will probably not be friends. Then again I have no problem with the label "Trekkie" either. I think that being a "gamer" and a "Trekkie" are quite similar. While I don't wear a Star Trek costume or attend a Star Trek convention, I appreciate that there are Star Trek fans who do. In much the same way, I do not engage in pointless debates like PC vs. consoles or wax nostalgic about a long-lost golden age of gaming, but there are those who play video games that do. Being a member of a community means accepting the eccentricities, flaws and faults of the other members. We may not always agree, but we need to respect and accept each others' opinions. And it is in this spirit of mutual respect and acceptance that I will agree not to call you a gamer and you must not go on a rant when I allow someone else to refer to me as a gamer.
On occasion, I do self-identify as a "reader" and as a "casual movie-goer" for whatever that's worth.
Enjoy your vacation!
On occasion, I do self-identify as a "reader" and as a "casual movie-goer" for whatever that's worth.
Enjoy your vacation!
Yeah, sorry, I'm a gamer, and for me, part of being a gamer was embracing My One Rule? 'I really don't care what anyone else thinks of me or what I do.'
Growing up in a small town with backassward ideas of technology, music (yeah, like from Footloose, Rock and Roll is the devil's work), or just good, old-fashioned prejudice I called myself a gamer for what it meant to me, not to anyone else.
Who cares what negative connotations anyone else has about the word, its for me to decide what it means, and that's that I love games, all kinds of games. I play Video Games (PC, Console, Handheld I don't care) Pen & Paper RPGs (D&D, WoD, Star Wars) CCGs (M:tG) Miniatures (Warhammer 40k) or anything else I wanna cram in there.
The day I stop calling myself a gamer, is the day I break My One Rule?.
So, good luck with getting everyone else to change. I'm good.
Growing up in a small town with backassward ideas of technology, music (yeah, like from Footloose, Rock and Roll is the devil's work), or just good, old-fashioned prejudice I called myself a gamer for what it meant to me, not to anyone else.
Who cares what negative connotations anyone else has about the word, its for me to decide what it means, and that's that I love games, all kinds of games. I play Video Games (PC, Console, Handheld I don't care) Pen & Paper RPGs (D&D, WoD, Star Wars) CCGs (M:tG) Miniatures (Warhammer 40k) or anything else I wanna cram in there.
The day I stop calling myself a gamer, is the day I break My One Rule?.
So, good luck with getting everyone else to change. I'm good.
If I had as much of an outlook as being defiant as you, (with your home town here, I'm not insulting you, I actually find it admirable to try and change their opinions) I would possibly accept it. Personally, I don't find much of a need to define myself drastically, as everyone I know knows me, and knows whats worth knowing. For new people, i'll talk about interesting stuff, I find going straight to "Oh yea, i'm a reader. Oh, i'm a gamer" Can make the conversation kinda dull. Anyway, I thought rule one was "Don't talk about the internet"?JaeKin said:
The whole topic is an intriguing one. On one hand, yes, the term "gamer" carries with it negative connotations. It sucks, and perhaps if we stop using the term, the connotations will go away,
Yeah, and maybe I'll start crapping through my mouth and eating out of my anus.
You can call a cloud tuna, but looking at it still makes you think "oooh, fluffy." Or, "I wonder what it'd be like to go through one..." Which is weird, if one is referring to a cloud as tuna. Brings up some disgusting images. But I digress.
It's not the word that carries the connotation. It's the idea of it. Whether we're "gamers" or "people who play videogames" or "homo sapiens hypnotized by the flashy light show and wiggly stick on a rock", people will always liken us with fat, antisocial, neckbeard having losers. It's just society, and the only way you change society is through actively proving those stereotypes wrong.
I have money that says if a black man won eight gold medals for the olympic swimming team rather than Phelps, that stereotype might die down too (but probably not).
I agree with Yahtzee though. Gamers aren't all losers. A lot of us are normal people living normal lives who rather enjoy watching a dude in white jump from roof to roof. Or perhaps like to combat vietnamese in their tunnel systems. Or whatever floats their boat. Me, I have a way to go. Not in great shape. Not the most social in the world. I don't mind admitting that. But I'm a gamer. It's a hell of a lot easier to say than anything else.
Much respect, Yahtzee. Oh, and also. While you're on your vacation, why not just have a guest do the show one week? Like the guy from Unskippable, he was kinda good. Or maybe Rebecca Mayes. Or maybe the guy from "A Good Knight's Quest." That might be funny.
Yeah, and maybe I'll start crapping through my mouth and eating out of my anus.
You can call a cloud tuna, but looking at it still makes you think "oooh, fluffy." Or, "I wonder what it'd be like to go through one..." Which is weird, if one is referring to a cloud as tuna. Brings up some disgusting images. But I digress.
It's not the word that carries the connotation. It's the idea of it. Whether we're "gamers" or "people who play videogames" or "homo sapiens hypnotized by the flashy light show and wiggly stick on a rock", people will always liken us with fat, antisocial, neckbeard having losers. It's just society, and the only way you change society is through actively proving those stereotypes wrong.
I have money that says if a black man won eight gold medals for the olympic swimming team rather than Phelps, that stereotype might die down too (but probably not).
I agree with Yahtzee though. Gamers aren't all losers. A lot of us are normal people living normal lives who rather enjoy watching a dude in white jump from roof to roof. Or perhaps like to combat vietnamese in their tunnel systems. Or whatever floats their boat. Me, I have a way to go. Not in great shape. Not the most social in the world. I don't mind admitting that. But I'm a gamer. It's a hell of a lot easier to say than anything else.
Much respect, Yahtzee. Oh, and also. While you're on your vacation, why not just have a guest do the show one week? Like the guy from Unskippable, he was kinda good. Or maybe Rebecca Mayes. Or maybe the guy from "A Good Knight's Quest." That might be funny.