DOTA2 or LoL?

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Aircross

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Ickorus said:
mrhateful said:
LoL no contest, dota2 is basically just plain old dota with better graphics where LoL made an effect to improve the concept. LoL is currently the most played game in the world and thats for a very good reason.
Gotta agree with this statement, I don't actually play either game anymore but LoL felt like an evolution (Not a perfect evolution, mind, it still has it's own issues) where DOTA 2 simply ported the game flaws and all without any attempt to improve gameplay beyond graphical changes.
There is an improvement on the gameplay. Because IceFrog is no longer limited by the WCIII engine, he can do more things. These big changes that improve the gameplay include:
1. Rubick can steal ALL active spells.
2. You can bash and crit while using Phase Boot's active components.
3. The orb effect of Maelstrom and Mjollnir can now stack with other orb effects if they do not proc.
4. Pudge can now hook enemies to your fountain thanks to Chen!

As for these perceived "game flaws..."

...there are reasons for them to be there.

Turning Speed: Balance reasons. Imagine you're chasing Pudge and then he instantly turns around and hooks you. With turning speed you can see when he is about to turn around to try to hook you and then take the measures needed to avoid the hook.

Attack Animation: Balance reasons. Each hero has different attack animations. Melee heroes tend to have better attack animations than ranged heroes. This allows melee heroes to last hit against ranged heroes.

Casting Animation: Balance reasons. There are heroes with very powerful abilities that would be broken if they are instantly casted. Examples include: Earthshaker's Fissure and Leshrac's Split Earth, Diabolic Edict, and Lightning Storm.

This so called "Burden of Knowledge:" By not limiting what he can do at the fear of player backlash (within reason), IceFrog has allowed himself to create very powerful and interesting heroes.

-You have Invoker, who is very versatile since he can cast up to ten spells (but he is very limited in the early game).
-Rubick, who can steal the enemy's spells and turn their magic against them.
-Meepo, who can create up to four clones of himself with each clone being able to use abilities separately (but not items separately.)
-Ancient Apparition, who can launch a hug ball of ice that stops any sort of healing and regeneration. The debuff also instantly kills the enemy if their current hp:max hp ratio falls under a certain ratio.

Int heroes do not scale (with a few exceptions): This is one factor that gives DotA\Dota 2 a lot of depth. Because abilities in the game do not scale (few exceptions) you get an extremely pronounced classification of early game, mid game, and late game heroes. Early game heroes are more powerful early game, mid game heroes are more powerful mid game, and late game heroes are more powerful late game. This diversity allows for multiple viable strategies.

-Early Push: A team comprised of powerful early game pushers. Their goal is to end the game as soon as possible by pushing to the ancient as fast as possible. This tactic is very powerful against team line ups who are relying on their carry to get farmed. The downside of this tactic is that if you fail to win the game under 20 minutes, your team's power will fall off and the enemy will be more powerful.

-Death Ball: A team comprised of very powerful gankers and disablers. Their goal is to gank the enemy team as much as possible so that that their enemy cannot get their farm and experience. The interesting aspect about death ball is that the carries, who usually come online later when they have their farm, on a death ball team tend to be active team players (they gank with the team.) The downside with death ball is that if you roam around for too long without getting kills, the enemy will have a level advantage due to the fact that the other lanes are untouched while you are focused on ganking one lane.

-Four Protect One: A team comprised of one hyper carry and four heroes with good defensive buffs and disables. Their goal is to occupy the entire enemy team so that their hyper carry can free farm for about 30 minutes. If they succeed, then their hyper carry can pretty much finish the game by himself/herself. The downside is that if they cannot prevent their hyper carry from being ganked, then they will not have the late game power.

There are more viable strategies than the three listed above.

RNG: Randomness in Dota 2 make the game exciting. To help make the game not too random, Dota 2 uses Pseudo Random Distribution. PRD is there to help ensure that a random event would happen while decreasing the chances for streaks. The item, Monkey King Bar, is used to negate any kind of miss chance or dodging. Good players will be able to predict the chance of something working out in their favor and adapt on the fly according on the outcome of a random ability.

Also, I must talk about Dota 2's snowballing vs. LoL's snowballing. Dota 2 doesn't snowball as hard as LoL, contrary to popular belief. Why? Let's look at two things.

1. Everything in LoL scales while very few abilities in Dota 2 scale. Feed a Queen of Pain 4 kills and Scream of Pain is not going to do any more damage than what it's hard coded to do, and Scream of Pain's cooldown never changes. Feed an AP mid 4 kills and their abilities will be hitting harder and more frequent thanks to Ability Power, Cool Down Reduction, and Magic Penetration.

2. The stat per gold ratio for items in DotA decreases as item tier increases while stat per gold ratio for items in LoL increases as item tier increases.

Read this: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34288821&postcount=4011
 

OldNewNewOld

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Some people were talking about denying and I just wanted to add this.
Denying isn't only good to prevent your enemy from getting gold and exp. Zoning is more effective in that aspect. Denying has also another really important use. To control the creep equilibrium. With good and planed denying, you can keep the creeps from moving from 1 spot. If you're good, with some denying and someone pulling the neutral creeps, you can keep the creeps constantly right outside your towers range and farm safely.

Also, if someone needs an Doto2 invite, just tell me the e-mail to send to. I have 11 extra invites.
 

Aircross

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BiH-Kira said:
Some people were talking about denying and I just wanted to add this.
Denying isn't only good to prevent your enemy from getting gold and exp. Zoning is more effective in that aspect. Denying has also another really important use. To control the creep equilibrium. With good and planed denying, you can keep the creeps from moving from 1 spot. If you're good, with some denying and someone pulling the neutral creeps, you can keep the creeps constantly right outside your towers range and farm safely.
Ah! How could I forget to mention denying and creep equilibrium!!! XD

Yes, the ability to deny your creeps allows you to directly control your lane's creep equilibrium. If you are good enough, you can even move the creep equilibrium towards your own tower to make it harder for the enemy to last hit.
 

Larcenist

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BiH-Kira said:
Some people were talking about denying and I just wanted to add this.
Denying isn't only good to prevent your enemy from getting gold and exp. Zoning is more effective in that aspect. Denying has also another really important use. To control the creep equilibrium. With good and planed denying, you can keep the creeps from moving from 1 spot. If you're good, with some denying and someone pulling the neutral creeps, you can keep the creeps constantly right outside your towers range and farm safely.
We do this in LoL by forcing recalls/getting kills and then shoving the lane so that big creep waves die under their tower for denied gold/experience as well as a lane reset if done right, so this argument can be used as an advantage for both games.

I do feel on the other hand that IceFrog has the possibilities of making the most versatile pool out of the games since his creativity never ceases to amaze me. I don't think anything will ever be quite as fun as when Invoker was released for DotA 1 (if you survived the "loading Invoker resources") with people trying to invoke the right abilities in a pinch all the time only to fail miserably.

I can't remember when I stopped playing DotA really (I think it was sometime shortly after the AA release) so I don't know a whole lot of later heroes, but if you really like to do big solo plays I feel that it will happen more in DotA public games than LoL since the latter quickly turns into a team effort where one person really can't carry very well by himself. Also DotA has Chen which is one of the most amazing heroes ever.
 

George Learmonth

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Ok, so having a fair amount of experience in both I think I can comment on what each games pros/cons are
-LoL is easier to get into for beginners as it is a lot simpler, with much less versatile characters.
-Dota 2 has a much more pleasing Aesthetic (at least for me)
-Dota 2 Has much more depth in terms of both skills and heroes, making it harder to learn, but more satisfying to master.
-LoL has a less satisfying free to play system, and could be considered inbalanced because of runes/masteries.

I would recommend LoL to start with, and learn basic mechanics until you're around lvl 10, then switch to Dota for the more advanced mechanics and strategic thinking.

Also, did I mention that Dota 2 has a hero with around 14 abilities?
Depth folks, its what makes good strategy games.
 

Denamic

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George Learmonth said:
Ok, so having a fair amount of experience in both I think I can comment on what each games pros/cons are
-LoL is easier to get into for beginners as it is a lot simpler, with much less versatile characters.
-Dota 2 has a much more pleasing Aesthetic (at least for me)
-Dota 2 Has much more depth in terms of both skills and heroes, making it harder to learn, but more satisfying to master.
-LoL has a less satisfying free to play system, and could be considered inbalanced because of runes/masteries.

I would recommend LoL to start with, and learn basic mechanics until you're around lvl 10, then switch to Dota for the more advanced mechanics and strategic thinking.

Also, did I mention that Dota 2 has a hero with around 14 abilities?
Depth folks, its what makes good strategy games.
Yeah, invoker has a shitload of spells on top of his invocation passives, but Rubick can use almost every single active spell in the game. Though he can only steal one of them at a time, this still makes him incredibly unpredictable. "Careful, I think Rubick stole my Hook, so he might- OH SHIT, BLACK HOLE!" It's also fun stealing Morhpling's strength morph, because the stat change is permanent, even after you die. You could be the tankiest guy on your team. Could also steal Enigmas' eidolons or something and jungle if you want to.
 

Uszi

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Jim_Callahan said:
DOTA2 is less granular, more like playing an extremely crippled version of the World of Warcraft arenas. Since the characters and roles aren't as clearly defined there's much less of the move/countermove dynamic and, at least at the moment, the lame snowballing effect where trying something new at the beginning of the match completely screws your entire team for the entire game is much, much worse.
How is DotA like WoW Arenas? Surely it's not because characters and roles aren't clearly defined, considering that the WoW Arenas use a character class system (i.e., warrior, rogue, mage etc).

As far as trying things new: Nonsense. You can do, and can be rewarded for, all sorts of new stuff. It's just that if you do something that doesn't work you will hurt your team, and knowing what will work and what will not is simply a matter of game sense. This is no different then "trying something new" by building AP Gangplank in LoL or AD Raka.

I think the snowball of failure is worth noting, maybe. It's true that LoL coddles failed play styles more than DotA, especially since you don't lose gold on death in LoL, and you give comparatively less experience and gold to your enemies every time you die.

Jim_Callahan said:
Basically, wait until DOTA's been out a few months and they've gone through some balancing cycles before playing it, would be my advice. Meanwhile LoL is free and actually a complete game that has a good grasp on what it's doing already, so you might as well try it if you're curious.
The game has been finely balanced for years, especially since Dota 2 imported everything whole sale from WC3 DotA. Ice Frog generally avoids huge balance patches, anyway. Riot likes to do these big overhaul patches where a lot of stuff changes, whereas Ice Frog patches frequently and tweaks values by very small increments until the game gets where it needs to be. The number of hero reworks in DotA compared to Champion reworks in LoL is fairly small too.

LoL is free in name only: You only have 10 champions to choose from (out of 110), and you only get to play those 10 for a couple of weeks tops before you would need to buy them in order to keep playing them. When you hit level 30, you need tier 3 runes, and these become quite expensive, and it's damned hard to farm the IP for them if you're committed to playing LoL as a Free game. In comparison, Dota 2 is also free. You do not pay to buy power (i.e., runes) the only things that are up for sale are cosmetic changes ala Team Fortress 2. However, you have the whole pantheon of 95 heroes to mess around with as soon as you log on.

Both LoL and DotA have an equally good "grasp on what it's doing." I don't see how LoL has a better grasp than DotA.
 

Uszi

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Naeras said:
Trippy Turtle said:
Also at the moment Dota has no outstandingly overpowered characters, unlike LoL which is basically first to pick Darius wins.
Darius isn't really OP. He's just the perfect pubstomper, provided he doesn't get counterpicked.

..sorry, I just needed to point that out. :<
Agree: just about any ranged top shuts Darius down, and when he hits 6 you don't stand next to him when he has 5 stacks of his passive on you. If he's whooping you, call for ganks. Jungle is supposed to be ganking the solo top harder than the dual bot, anyway.

Devoneaux said:
I;d say the moment team fights happen is the moment Shaco truly shines. At that point you wanna farm and farm and farm and farm, split pushing all the while this is happening. even if you don't get massively fed from the start, if you farm enough, Shaco turns into a pretty nasty hyper carry provided the game lasts long enough.

This is kind of a problem I have with LoL, there's no problem in the game that heavy farming does not address.
I feel like Shaco is always going to be more an an anti-carry than a true carry, since his kit revolves around waiting for your teammates to pick a fight, then popping out of invisibility behind the enemy Ashe or Cait or whatever, for sexy sneak attack criticals of desolation.
 

Sunrider

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If you just want my opinion as a sort of vote, DOTA 2. I love LoL, it's a shitload of fun, but it just doesn't compare. It's not even a contest. DOTA 2 > *.
 

pspman45

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Aircross said:
Just wanna clarify one thing here. If you hit the Control button during hero selection in Dota 2 you'll get the grid instead of the cards (yeah, I don't know why Valve defaulted the selection to cards...)
ok thank you, this will make my DotA 2 experience much better, as the 60 seconds of hero select in blind pick will no longer be as hectic
 

blazearmoru

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@Naeras

I've seen a team almost pull off a 0/1/3/jungle in a tournament.

@Aircross

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34288821&postcount=4011 this guy explains it pretty nicely. By the way, have you ever come across people who said "DotA snowballs too hard to stop because if you die, you lose gold" and I'm like... Didn't you just present a way to stop snowballing? *facepalm*.
 

Archer666

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Get Dota 2 if you want more complex and challenging gameplay. I play a ton of LoL but compared to Dota 2 it just feels like a watered down version of the latter. That and the way they sexualize 90% of their female roster. If you're gonna go down that road, then please give me sexualized male skins too. Where's my Sexy Fireman Graves, Beach Bunny Ezreal? Hell, I'm surprised that we didn't get a Naked Upper Body Draven...It'd fit his character too.


Also, LoL devs sometimes say silly stuff..
 

Saviordd1

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I prefer DOTA2 to LoL but part of that is the community.

Plus if you ask around it's not that hard to get into DOTA for free.
 

White_Lama

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blazearmoru said:
White_Lama said:
Actually, if I were to count the times I've played 5v5 in LoL, in the hundreds of games I've played, maybe 10ish % has had a jungler :p

So it's not set in stone, it's all about what kind of team you get.
How about all games above 1400 elo?
Don't even know what 1400 elo means.
 

Larcenist

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Your "skill rating" in LoL (and many other games as well, chess for example). When you hit level 20 queues there will not likely ever be a game without jungler anymore, and if it is it is simply because everyone instalocks top or mid lane.

The only thing that ever changes with the current LoL meta is where the dual lane goes; most common is bot for dragon control, sometimes top lane to shut down heavy snowballers such as Jax that need farm to scale well (this is usually done with a top laner that doesn't really need items to do well since he will play 1v2 as well, Olaf for example), and in rare cases mid lane for roaming pressure. Some troll setups adapt a dual jungle setup, often with a Nunu for his excellent counter jungle capabilities and a very agressive jungler such as Lee Sin. Other than this the only real variation in the meta is whether you go AD bruiser, AP assassin or Vladimir in top lane pretty much.
 

BloatedGuppy

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White_Lama said:
Don't even know what 1400 elo means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

It's just a way of ranking players relative to one another. Chess uses it. Starcraft uses it. I'm assuming since it's cropped up in this conversation either the LoL or DOTA matchmaker uses it as well.
 

WoW Killer

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Archer666 said:
LoL devs sometimes say silly stuff
You can do a dramatic zoom on pretty much any post to make it look silly. Why are healers a good addition? In a lot of PvP games they tend to dominate the meta-game; if they're not OP it's usually because there's some specific anti-healing mechanism in there (e.g. Mortal Strike). There's only two Supports in SMITE right now, and they're both considered overpowered as Hel (see what I did there?). And they're only really semi-supports; there's been purposely no full blown healer character in there. Maybe it'd be great having healers, but it would undoubtedly change the meta in a big way.

White_Lama said:
Don't even know what 1400 elo means.
ELO = Electric Light Orchestra [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjPqsDU0j2I].

Or something like that...
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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Archer666 said:
Get Dota 2 if you want more complex and challenging gameplay. I play a ton of LoL but compared to Dota 2 it just feels like a watered down version of the latter. That and the way they sexualize 90% of their female roster. If you're gonna go down that road, then please give me sexualized male skins too. Where's my Sexy Fireman Graves, Beach Bunny Ezreal? Hell, I'm surprised that we didn't get a Naked Upper Body Draven...It'd fit his character too.


Also, LoL devs sometimes say silly stuff..
Sexualizing LoL's female cast is half of the appeal of League, there is a lot more art on Pixiv of LoL than Dota.
 

Atmos Duality

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LoL has a much easier learning curve than DotA2 at its most basic level.
It's a good introduction to MOBAs.

DotA2 is a much "deeper" mechanical game. There are fewer "faceroll" heroes and roles are less rigid.
Which isn't to say DotA2 is better "balanced" overtly*, ridiculous concepts and obvious skill imbalances still do poke through on occasion.

I like and dislike both of them for various reasons but I'm stuck with DotA2 since I cannot play LoL at all on my home connection. (due to my ISP interfering with some function of their client, causing it to take me 5-10 minutes to connect to a game. Once I do connect, it works perfectly fine, but I cannot feasibly play from that far behind.)

[sub]*(I personally find it to be better balanced but not overtly so on account of the average level of skill, or lack thereof of the playerbase...it's complicated but the simplest answer is that I've seen more instances of DotA2 rewarding odd underhanded tactics, whereas LoL seems to go out of its way to remove those)[/sub]
 

WoW Killer

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
It's not so hard to balance heros with healing powers. It gives players more to experiment with but healing abilities aren't always OP. Theres a lot of healing heros in DOTA 2, for example, (Enchantress, Omniknight, Chen, Huskar, Juggernaut, Necrolyte, Dazzle, Witch Doctor, and more), but heros that have them aren't OP. Mek is pretty much the only heal you are going to see 100% in a pro match. Out of those aforementioned heros only Enchantress, Chen and maybe Dazzle are popular picks.

And I guess Naix if you count his Open Wounds as a heal for teammates, he almost never gets through pick/ban untouched these days.
Has it become standard to take a healer amongst pro teams? Not that that would be game-breaking even then, I mean the same is true of tanks in SMITE (and I presume other MOBAs?). You can run without a tank, but you can be fairly sure in a high ranked game the team without a tank is going to lose. It's hard to say for the supports in SMITE, as there's only the two; Hel is on perma-ban right now, which only leaves Ra (a very common pick; he'd probably be banned more if there weren't problematic tanks like Sobek and Herc).

Not such a direct comparison, but looking back to WoW. At one point healers were the main force in Arenas. To balance it out, Bliz gave a few more classes some kind of Mortal Strike type ability. The meta then shifts to "how are you going to handle the healer". That's what I mean about them dominating the meta-game; it's not that they're always going to be OP, but that their existence starts to play a major role in deciding team compositions. Anti-healers can become a character type in and of themselves. It's a theme I've picked up on in a few MMOs; there's usually hard-coded ways to deal with healers, and the whole meta starts to get a bit rock-paper-scissors-ey.

Again, tanks play an important role in the meta-game too, so it's not that it can't all be balanced correctly. But I can understand if a dev wouldn't want to include them; if the meta seems to be working fine as it is, then you risk changing everything by putting them in.