Dr Who Christmas Special 2013

[Netrigan]

Oh and Please ask RTD how to write women. Clara=Amy while none of the 3 female RTD ones did. Hell he made me not only LIKE Catherine Tate, something i once thought possible only by the use of water boarding, but consider Donna my favorite assistant

Clara and Amy have very different temperaments. It's true that Moffat's leads all have the same lightning quick wit, but this is because he writes everyone like they're in a screwball comedy and strong, assertive, quick-witted women who bend men to their will are the norm in screwball comedy. Coupling features three such characters, each with their own quirks and personality.

RTD writes soap opera, so Rose and Martha were cut largely from the same cloth. Two young women with serious mother issues who are willing to put their entire life on hold to go chasing after a man... and both end up gun-toting defenders of the Earth, because just about every RTD companion becomes a gun-toting defender of the Earth. Donna was created to be a Catherine Tate comedy sketch character who got softened up, so she's following different rules... and her timely reappearance in the fourth series saved us from, get this staggeringly original concept, a jilted bride whom the Doctor falls hopelessly in love with.

If feminists ever cast a jaded eye toward RTD's run, I think they'd find quite a bit to criticize, such as every single mother character not written by Moffat being a horrible person (Jackie is the only halfway decent one of the bunch, while the Dads all come off as pretty easy going). Both Rose & Martha are willing to throw everything in their life away just to travel with the Doctor, especially glaring in the case of Martha who is leaving behind a promising medical career which she seems to have permanently put on hold to fight aliens with her husband Mickey. Contrast that with Amy, River, and Clara who all maintain a life outside of the TARDIS which is more than occasionally arguing with their mother and/or boyfriend about being with the Doctor). I could go on, but I'm not trying to say RTD wrote bad female characters, but he's far more interested in creating turmoil to fuel the light soap opera, while Moffat is looking for a strong personality to act as a double-act with the Doctor.

Both are strong writers, both take an interest in crafting interesting and strong female characters, but they're playing to two very different styles: soap opera and screwball comedy. RTD is about relationship, turmoil, and character development (even if they all end up gun-toting defenders of the Earth, something so blatant he had to send it up in the Series Four finale where Davros and Donna give the Doctor grief about it), while Moffat is interesting is snappy dialogue and dramatic moments.

 

[TallanKhan]

The thing that really bothered me about this episode has been an issue for me for some time, the Daleks.

The whole "if you bring the timelords back then it will cause another time war" thing means that there are enough Daleks floating around to fight a war with the Timelords. Now there whole bit with the time war, as i understand it, was two factions vastly superior to the rest of the universe fighting it out, the Daleks to destroy everything, the Timelords (at least initially) to save it.

Now, if since the Daleks were brought back they have built an empire of sufficient size and power to fight it out with the Timelords again then what has stopped them from slaughtering the entire universe? I get that the Doctor erased himself from history so they aren't activley pursing him anymore, but why the hell aren't they destroying everything else?

I will admit that the Christopher Ecclestone / David Tennant stories involving the Daleks became a little tedious in so much as they always needed to find an excuse to completlely (or almost completely) destroy the Daleks after every outing. However, this was at least logically consistent.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

Well we have just seen the last of Matt Smith and the first of Peter Capaldi. To be honest here, I was a little disappointed. The story just didn't work, it tried to develope a sense inevitable doom and defeat but seeing everyone was waiting for the new Doctor, there was no tension. Just when you thought the plot was going to take off, that line fizzled out.

I felt about the same...you knew he was going to re-generate so now the only real question is "did he mean 12 new Doctors when he mentioned the beginning of a new cycle?" I can't help but think that's a yes. I wanted to like the X-Mas special...but it just couldn't hold my attention.

 

[Tanis]

I rather enjoyed it.

It was a lot better than most of the 'Pond' seasons.

 

[djoelie]

Oh and Please ask RTD how to write women. Clara=Amy while none of the 3 female RTD ones did. Hell he made me not only LIKE Catherine Tate, something i once thought possible only by the use of water boarding, but consider Donna my favorite assistant

Clara and Amy have very different temperaments. It's true that Moffat's leads all have the same lightning quick wit, but this is because he writes everyone like they're in a screwball comedy and strong, assertive, quick-witted women who bend men to their will are the norm in screwball comedy. Coupling features three such characters, each with their own quirks and personality.
...
If feminists ever cast a jaded eye toward RTD's run, I think they'd find quite a bit to criticize, such as every single mother character not written by Moffat being a horrible person (Jackie is the only halfway decent one of the bunch, while the Dads all come off as pretty easy going). Both Rose & Martha are willing to throw everything in their life away just to travel with the Doctor, especially glaring in the case of Martha who is leaving behind a promising medical career which she seems to have permanently put on hold to fight aliens with her husband Mickey. Contrast that with Amy, River, and Clara who all maintain a life outside of the TARDIS which is more than occasionally arguing with their mother and/or boyfriend about being with the Doctor). I could go on, but I'm not trying to say RTD wrote bad female characters, but he's far more interested in creating turmoil to fuel the light soap opera, while Moffat is looking for a strong personality to act as a double-act with the Doctor.
...

I agree with both sides on this one.
Martha & Rose were both strong female leads (as in, trying to save their family, earth & the doctor) but it seemed they were just painfully waiting for the doctor to love them. One of the reasons I love Donna (you're not mating with me spaceman!).
Moffats female leads are very much alike, but they seem to have their own life and make their own decisions... mostly.
I think females could be represented better, or more diversely, in the show.
The same can be said about the male companions btw, I hope there's a male companion in our future that isn't the boyfriend (or father) of X. That being said, I still love most characters.

Back on topic, I did enjoy the episode, but I agree it was pretty slow and although I was glad to get some explanations to all the references etc. they did feel kind of hurried and forced. I really enjoyed the regeneration sequence, including last & first words honestly, the perfect teaser for the next season. Shame we have to wait so long.
Sad to see Smith go, but excited about Capaldi. I have been (very slowly) watching the classics and I really hope his apparent post regeneration amnesia is a sign they're going back to a doctor that isn't in control all the time.

 

[Mullac]

I just don't understand how people can like Doctor Who now

My family and I only watch it to laugh at it together, everything about it is so drastically bad it's funny. The end of the Christmas Special was superb though, he gets super powers...now that is some funny (bad) stuff.

 

[Rednog]

One thing that bothered me about this episode....doesn't Clara actually know his name? I mean River Song said it when she was linked with Clara. So wouldn't a logical solution for Clara be to shout his name into the rift when the doctor is going to his death? I mean at that point there is pretty much nothing to lose, why roll the dice on a damn near impossible outcome of pleading to the rift when you actually know the answer to the question?

Also I laughed my ass off when the Doctor's regeneration was like dropping a nuke, it just made the Daleks fall apart like cheap plastic; all I could think about was that out there you know there's just some random schmuck who couldn't get inside in time and the outline of his corpse is shadowed on some wall. Though one questions how the buildings remain fairly intact and the Daleks are all in pieces considering how strong Dalek shields are supposed to be...

 

[Thaluikhain]

Also I laughed my ass off when the Doctor's regeneration was like dropping a nuke, it just made the Daleks fall apart like cheap plastic; all I could think about was that out there you know there's just some random schmuck who couldn't get inside in time and the outline of his corpse is shadowed on some wall. Though one questions how the buildings remain fairly intact and the Daleks are all in pieces considering how strong Dalek shields are supposed to be...

Yeah...how did the Timelords end up coming near to losing the Time War? If every time a Timelord is injured enough to regenerate, they blow up an entire dalek fleet...not to mention that if you let a human look inside the time vortex of any Tardis, they get superpowers to make people immortal and blow fleets up.

 

[djoelie]

Yeah...how did the Timelords end up coming near to losing the Time War? If every time a Timelord is injured enough to regenerate, they blow up an entire dalek fleet...not to mention that if you let a human look inside the time vortex of any Tardis, they get superpowers to make people immortal and blow fleets up.

LOL
I thought it was a special thing due to his regeneration cycle resetting honestly...
But I do hope there's some sort of severe setback to giving him a new set, can anyone tell me what's the canon on this (with regard to the master also getting new cycle in the past)? Otherwise your point still stands, with the addition of why don't they all just reset their cycles all the time?
As for Rose looking in the time vortex, it's been awhile since I saw that, didn't the doctor actually think it would kill her or something? Or am I remembering wrong?

 

[Thaluikhain]

LOL
I thought it was a special thing due to his regeneration cycle resetting honestly...
But I do hope there's some sort of severe setback to giving him a new set, can anyone tell me what's the canon on this (with regard to the master also getting new cycle in the past)? Otherwise your point still stands, with the addition of why don't they all just reset their cycles all the time?

They never gave the Master a new set, it was just something they offered him.

As for Rose looking in the time vortex, it's been awhile since I saw that, didn't the doctor actually think it would kill her or something? Or am I remembering wrong?

Even so, one dead human, one destroyed dalek fleet.

 

[djoelie]

They never gave the Master a new set, it was just something they offered him.

Okay so we don't really know what the consequences are, just that it's possible... thanks for clearing that up. Does this take place in classic who or new who?
Sorry for my ignorance on the subject btw, I like the show but the canon's a bit much for me.

Even so, one dead human, one destroyed dalek fleet.

True.
There have been some *minor* (ahum) plot holes like that... My reasoning behind this one is that the doctor wouldn't want to sacrifice humans, and the rest of the timelords weren't interested enough in humans to suspect such a thing was possible. But, I haven't watched all classic who yet and anyway, I guess it's easy to explain away inconsistencies when you really like something I get your point though, seeing some of the measures taken against his enemies makes you wonder how those enemies still exist in the first place.


On the Christmas ep, at least this time there was a sort of excuse for the regeneration being so... overpowered.
But like I said,I'm assuming there has to be some major setback to giving a timelord a second set of regenerations. Or hoping there is,to be more accurate.

 

[Thaluikhain]

They never gave the Master a new set, it was just something they offered him.

Okay so we don't really know what the consequences are, just that it's possible... thanks for clearing that up. Does this take place in classic who or new who?
Sorry for my ignorance on the subject btw, I like the show but the canon's a bit much for me.

That was in "The Five Doctors", which was Classic Who, and the story in which the Doctor steals the Seal from him, which was mentioned in the Christmas story.

Despite not getting any more regenerations, the Master was able to keep going by using various weird all-powerful things that the Doctor didn't completely stop him from getting his hands on.

 

[crudus]

Ok, I want to start off by saying that I don't necessarily mean to necro this thread, but there is something really important (to me at least) that nobody has touched upon yet. I just saw the special a few days ago then my internet went out, so I couldn't exactly comment on it while this thread was still live.

Everyone has missed a very simple thing: the last two specials have taken depth away from the series. The Time War taught us a pretty good lesson. Sometimes, no matter who you are or how hard you try, things just can't work out the way you want. Sometimes you just have to go with the lesser evil to prevent a worse evil. That is something that is really hard to teach in an effective way. Not only that but it humbled the Doctor. Every episode we see him save the world/city/galaxy/universe/etc and never see him fail. How big of a complex would a person have if they could just go into a situation, snap their fingers, and it worked out for the best? It showed the Doctor wasn't perfect. The 50th anniversary would have been so much more powerful if they destroyed Galifrey. I honestly thought that was what was going to happen the entire time I was watching it (Hell, I thought it was the point of the episode). I thought The Moment was showing Hurt his future incarnations to show that even though he is about to do the most horrible, unspeakable thing, he can still find redemption. Again, another incredibly complex, deep lesson that is hard to teach. For lack of a better word it humanized the Doctor to show that he can still learn (even if it is from himself) and even he gets lost sometimes. Every other time he may as well be God snapping his fingers[footnote]Admit it. If the show was told from the perspective of everyone the Doctor saves, the Doctor would be viewed as a Deus Ex Machina[/footnote]. Well now the Doctor saved Galifrey because to hell with any sort of deeper meaning to an episode. Moffat just wants to see the Doctor win. It doesn't matter what the Doctor thinks happened. That was just a really terrible way of Moffat covering his tracks [footnote]and not totally invalidating Eccleston which, let's be honest, happened anyway[/footnote].

(Ok, I know this thread is about to the Christmas special, but that paragraph helps drive my point home)

The exact same thing happened with Trenzalore. Moffat actually made the Doctor more relatable with the visiting of Trenzalore by showing how he deals with visiting his grave. We can see him dealing with his mortality. We have essentially an immortal being dealing with mortality. That is pretty heavy stuff which humanizes him making him more relatable. He doesn't necessarily know his eventual death is close, but it is something he doesn't want to think about. We have actually seen him do this twice now that I think about it, but still it is a good quality of your virtually immortal main character to have. This is a plot point that never needs to be brought up again. Just the fact that we see him dealing with his mortality is enough to improve the character. What happens to it? It gets thrown out the window because magic. Ok, not only was that special bad writing, but he suddenly turned one of the best things he wrote into one of the worst. He literally wrote Trenzalore just to take it away. Seriously, Trenzalore was in the last episode of the season only to be thrown away two episodes later. It was drama for the sake of having drama, and that is horrendous writing. If you skipped those two episodes (the season finale and Christmas special), what would you have missed? The explanation of Clara and the regeneration into the next Doctor which is 5 minutes of screen time at best. Fantastic plot advancement Moffat.

And how else was the Doctor going to get a new set of regenerations?

Easy. It is something that has been hinted at and hammered in to us so much that I (and my circle of friends) honestly thought they were going this route: The Doctor lies. It would have been so easy. None of this b.s. Deus Ex Machina that was thrown at us. Now I don't mean that the Doctor straight up lied to us, but it could have been solved by a simple "Time Lords have an average of 12 regenerations. Some have more, some have less. Time Lords never know how many they have until their number is up just like humans don't know how many years they are going to live until they die. Every once in a while, and this is very, very rare, a time lord will have infinite lives." Done! You gave yourself as many regenerations as you want.