Drag queens: Yay or Nay?

[Something Amyss]

I'm trans and they don't offend me. They do, however, puzzle me.

I think we'd be better off overall if they were offered less scrutiny. I'm also the "self determination" type.

As a transgender individual, I find drag queens to somewhat of an irritant because it kinda trivializes the problems we go through.

That sounds dangerously close to the logic the gay community at large uses when they throw transfolk under the bus. Seems like paying it forward. Though this is fairly common in minority communities, so perhaps it's business as usual.

 

[Something Amyss]

To the layman, Drag Queens are often what they think of when they hear of the transgender community, and that idea is what I find obnoxious, because I've been ostracized for it.

So the prejudices of the masses lead to Queens being "an irritant?"

Again, this is logic that you probably wouldn't want aimed at yourself and very likely is. Do unto others, folks.

 

[ThreeName]

Holy shit, that legit?

As the older I've gotten in this world, I've realized I'm incredibly lucky to have the parents that I have. Had I been gay they wouldn't of really given a damn. The things I've seen of other peoples home lives in my late teens. S'Fucked up, I promise you.

That said, I knew of a gay girl in high school. When she came out to her mother, said parent refused to talk to her for 3 days.

Yeah, unfortunately I saw it on TV and cannot for the life of me remember which program it was on. I'd stress to take that with a grain of salt, it's probably sounded worse and worse over time in my head

My parents wouldn't have been amazingly receptive to mine being gay, but they would have come to terms with it eventually. I haven't seen any gay friends badly treated by parents that I know of, at least not for specifically being gay.

 

[Jenvas1306]

I must say that I dont like it...acting after my standards i try to be tolerant and understanding and stuff, but it just feels like it makes fun of people like me.
Im a pretty normal girl, im not fabulous and its not the greatest for me to wear pink nailpolish, but I had the misfortune to be born with a genderidentity that doesnt fit together with how my body was. People often confuse transvestites and drags with transgender, even meeting me in person makes clear that im just a 'normal' person, I still notice that something else is expected from some (flamboyant behavior I guess...)

I understand that some people like to make a show and stuff. women like that and men do so too, some of them in the form of drag, but I dont really get what is arousing about dressing like a woman. Is it that femininity is often sorta forbidden for guys? Is it some sort of getting aroused by degrading themselves by wearing female clothing (id be a bit offended at that mindset).

also, this:

As a transgender individual, I find drag queens to somewhat of an irritant because it kinda trivializes the problems we go through. Much of the time when you say that you're trans, some people seem to think that we're all drag queens or something and that can get quite annoying when you're just trying to get on with your life and get things done, because instead of a person with legitimate problems you're viewed as some sort of sexual fetishist. I never found them particularly humorous or amusing either, and those specific bugs bunny cartoons usually bothered me more than they made me laugh.

So in total: I dont mind them (but I dont like flamboyant folks), but it would be great if people knew the difference. One group has a very real suffering to overcome, the otherone has a rather unusual hobby...

 

[an annoyed writer]

To the layman, Drag Queens are often what they think of when they hear of the transgender community, and that idea is what I find obnoxious, because I've been ostracized for it.

So the prejudices of the masses lead to Queens being "an irritant?"

Again, this is logic that you probably wouldn't want aimed at yourself and very likely is. Do unto others, folks.

I dunno, have you been disowned by your family because they think you're a drag queen, and despite all of your protests, they won't listen to what you have to say? I've been hurt by mine that way. They classify a need as a want. And when someone takes the spotlight and in some ways cast you in a negative light, and when you try to say otherwise to no avail, you're not exactly going to have a lot of respect for that person. You can tell me that I'm throwing someone under the bus, but you can't tell me I don't have a legitimate grievance or two that might cause me to do so. The damage was done, even if it was done inadvertently.

 

[an annoyed writer]

I must say that I dont like it...acting after my standards i try to be tolerant and understanding and stuff, but it just feels like it makes fun of people like me.
Im a pretty normal girl, im not fabulous and its not the greatest for me to wear pink nailpolish, but I had the misfortune to be born with a genderidentity that doesnt fit together with how my body was. People often confuse transvestites and drags with transgender, even meeting me in person makes clear that im just a 'normal' person, I still notice that something else is expected from some (flamboyant behavior I guess...)

I understand that some people like to make a show and stuff. women like that and men do so too, some of them in the form of drag, but I dont really get what is arousing about dressing like a woman. Is it that femininity is often sorta forbidden for guys? Is it some sort of getting aroused by degrading themselves by wearing female clothing (id be a bit offended at that mindset).

also, this:

As a transgender individual, I find drag queens to somewhat of an irritant because it kinda trivializes the problems we go through. Much of the time when you say that you're trans, some people seem to think that we're all drag queens or something and that can get quite annoying when you're just trying to get on with your life and get things done, because instead of a person with legitimate problems you're viewed as some sort of sexual fetishist. I never found them particularly humorous or amusing either, and those specific bugs bunny cartoons usually bothered me more than they made me laugh.

So in total: I dont mind them (but I dont like flamboyant folks), but it would be great if people knew the difference. One group has a very real suffering to overcome, the otherone has a rather unusual hobby...

Thank you for getting the damn point I was trying to get across. I've had a rough night and I'm tired of this argument. you've said what needs to be said. Now if you excuse me, I'm going to leave this thread.

 

[Jenvas1306]

Snip to not display that again

you are malinformed, transgenderism is not a more extreme variant of transvestism or drag. its a fundamentally different thing.
gender and sex are independant, most people are fortunate enough to have gotten them fitting to each other, but nature is not perfect and there are lots of variants of both

AND nothing is getting chopped off, thats a horrible false view that puts something into a frankenstein-light that should be the pride of any surgeon who does such surgeries with great success.


captcha: x all the y
you creep me out captcha, seriously...

 

[Colour Scientist]

I'm trans.

Huh! You learn something new everyday!
OP: I'm not offended by them but I don't spend a lot of time thinking about them, either.

Sure, a majority of them take on a persona of extrememly exaggerated femininity but I don't think that it's done in a mean spirited way towards women.
The Rupaul brand of being a drag queen, to me, is like pantomime, and anyone who knows how to think critically will understand that it's farce and spectacle and not much else.

I can't speak for being offended and transgender though, so I'm not going to.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Snip to not display that again

you are malinformed, transgenderism is not a more extreme variant of transvestism or drag. its a fundamentally different thing.
gender and sex are independant, most people are fortunate enough to have gotten them fitting to each other, but nature is not perfect and there are lots of variants of both

AND nothing is getting chopped off, thats a horrible false view that puts something into a frankenstein-light that should be the pride of any surgeon who does such surgeries with great success.


captcha: x all the y
you creep me out captcha, seriously...

Oh, I understand the difference between sex and gender. Which is why I find the whole surgical aspect barbaric -- if there's really a difference, why get the surgery? You cannot reassign sex like that. Like I said, it's your body, get the surgery if you want, but it reflects more on society's hangups in regards to sex and gender than it does on any sort of reality about being born in the wrong body or what have you. If gender really were entirely societally constructed, there would be no need for the surgery, would there?

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

Did you not read my other posts? Context is everything. If you're dressing in the other gender's clothing just because you like doing it and all that? Fine. I don't mind that. To each their own. But if you're doing it to point a finger at me and laugh, and become the loud and flamboyant supposed "Face" of an entire group while carrying none of the stigma, then I'm going to be pissed.

Frankly, no I didn't. Because my experience is not YOUR experience, and your previous posts seem to imply that the world needs to conform to your expectations of acceptance, rather than you learning about adapting your sensitivity to the world around you.

That -sounds- like I'm saying suck it up, buttercup.

And to be honest, you know what? I am. They weren't laughing at you up until you decided to play the straight man (not a pun, I swear to Janus) to their schtick and get all offended. Now that you are, it's the awkward laughter of a crowd watching someone stomp away when the comedian wasn't actually referring to you.

At all.

You happen to be trans. I honestly don't care. But if you decide that someone who is gay is not trans while continuing to explain how flaming drag queens (who in many cases are actually gay males but who don't identify as female gender) make you uncomfortable, then you've already lost me, a straight white male.

And that's kinda your sticking point here.

I have dated trans women before and never had an issue with their gender identity. What I find unmistakably obnoxious about the conversation thus far is the assumption that drag queens are somehow the blackface of trans identity because "some people might think that way".

Well, you know what? I have been excellent friends with drag queens, none of whom could possibly be mistaken for anything other than a drag queen. They are spectacularly unconvincing females. The only females that pass for females with them are the females who are friends with them. There may be some trans females in that group but I'd never know because they're outshadowed by the over-the-top 6'6" man in stiletto heels belting out the Gilligan's Island theme song.

It's kind of hard (and pointless) to check for Adam's apples amongst a group of people dressed in women's clothing when a good 25% of those people at said event are indeed drag queens.

If you get the number of someone you find attractive at said event (gay/straight/bi female meeting FTM, gay/straight/bi male meeting MTF) and you have questions about gender, one would think this should come up during the first date at the very least. It resolves itself in quiet conversations without any real out-in-your-face question, if at all.

To wit, whether someone's decked out in a sailor suit and 6" blood-red stilettos has very little to do with the question of gender identity at hand. Drag is not gender. Gender is not drag. The fact that with the right makeup artists I'm able to pass as a very tall woman (and did as part of a project on societal perception in 1999) is (according to everything I have read about gender identity) completely separate.

Let's hypothetically say there's someone out there who feels neuter. As in they don't have a bigender nature. They feel both female and male. And takes surgical procedures to be who they feel. If that person wears a three-piece suit one day, and a miniskirt, heels, tiara and corset the next, are they "pushing that stereotype"?

In my mind, no. Because it's got nothing to do with drag queens. Or transgendered people. Or transsexuals. Or chaps in the sixth form who are up for a jape. Or male actors in Shakespearean times. Or eunuchs. Leave them alone. They're not the symbol of sexuality oppression you were looking for. They're not a SYMBOL, period, other than what you've decided they must be, because (as you stated) they annoy you because of their flamboyance.

And so it goes. I'd probably annoy the hell out of you in real life simply because I'm blunt, direct, flamboyant, and have no problems with letting my niece and nephew paint my toenails. For that matter, I have no problem with my niece putting makeup on me so I'm pretty for her tea party. That I'm 6'5" and 260 lbs matters not at all.

But according to your logic, that must mean I'm out to besmirch the transgender community simply by being...confusing.

Get OVER yourself, and get off the crucifix. Seriously. Someone needs the wood.

Having an issue with a drag queen being a drag queen is like having an issue with Tone Loc's The Funky Cold Medina or the Kinks' song Lola. Okay, so it offends you as a (insert gender role / societal type here). So what? Those were not written with the express intent of refraining from offending anyone. In point of fact, a step-by-step analysis of the Funky Cold Medina reveals drink dosing, treating women like chattel, animal testing, and stereotyping of urban youth in the 1980s.

Alert the media. Someone's gonna be upset we played the Funky Cold Medina at my cousin's wedding, because it didn't cater to everyone's particular offend-o-meter radar. Lola must be stripped because it refers to meeting a transsexual in a dim Soho bar and being shocked by the experience.

Or, you know, we could just say "if it pisses you off, why don't you just educate instead of bitching about how it's stuff like this that makes your life a living hell/paradise/three-ring circus of online and offline explanations?"

I -am- the layman. Unfortunately, annoyedwriter, by virtue of your being a trans woman, you are not. You are the expert, but what you fail to realize is that your perspective is not the perspective of the society at large, and CANNOT be simply by virtue of being who you are. You want the rest of the world to preach tolerance, but you're also not taking a step back to separate your own issues from another group, and using them as a bullet point in the PowerPoint Presentation of What It Means To Be Trans.

I get it. Your perception of what the society perceives you to be is greatly influenced by your past. Right now, my perception of most transgender people who complain about society at large is that they're snotty bitches who pick the most convenient target before stepping back and thinking things through. (Granted, that's also how many women I know react, so well done on fulfilling my quota of gender stereotypes for the day.)

You want to change the effect? Change the way you react to it. A sneer and a snarl isn't going to help me place my point of view through your eyes. All I see right now is someone who's placing their own hangups on a completely separate group from their own experience and demanding that they stop doing it because you don't like it. I'm not hearing the reasons. I'm hearing you blaming people for how you're perceived rather than just owning your shit and saying, "yep, but that's not me. This is who I am. I am a woman. I've always been a woman. I just didn't have the right biological plumbing, and some people were assholes to me about it."

I'm far more likely to deal positively with someone who says the latter regardless of who they are. I'm less likely to deal with someone who loops in patriarchy, drag queens, bisexual females and males and gender identities as rationalizations and irritants and then slopping the whole mess down as "this is why life and society sucks."

As a straight man, I expected to age a bit more myself to around 80 and start waving my cane at those damn kids before I personally did that to other people I had annoyances with. Then I expected to start writing letters to the editor complaining about the images on television and how that much nudity was disgraceful, and sign them with "Disgusted and Ashamed and Disappointed And Old And Surly And Bitter And Cranky*".

And right now my perception of many, many trans people is that they have that 80-year old writing those letters to the editor RIGHT NOW blaming damn near everything except vitamin D for why they've had it rough in life. I'm not saying they all do. But this thread sure as XX chromosomes isn't helping change that perception.

Granted, I think the problem is not that I, a layman in the straight world who was fully capable of figuring out that transgender /= drag queen on my own long before you brought up your personal cartload of emotional baggage into the field. I think the problem is that you keep demanding that your "community" adheres to your own personal standards of belief, rather than acknowledging that your community consists not only of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, and Transgenders, but also your freaks, your straight supporters, and the people who go, "Eh, that's fine. Just stop dropping your drama on my doorstep and whining about how drag queens/straight people/queers/lesbians/biological hermaphrodites/androgynous models give transgender FTM / MTF / FTMTF a bad rep."

Because the one thing this layman knows is that yes, you're different. But if you decide that the only way you're going to be comfortable with your own personal freak flag is by denigrating someone else who happens to be letting their freak flag fly, you're doing more harm than you ever realize.

The targets of your snide remarks? They won't want to deal with your crap. The people who watch you flail around like a hyperventilating monkey on nitrous? They'll be entertained by you.

To wit, it sucks that you have such a big chip on your shoulder that you're blaming anything you can for the reason trans people are treated poorly. To a certain extent I'm pretty sure you'll decide that me being a straight male is reason enough to dismiss what I'm saying entirely and discount it as part of the problem society has at large.

However, I really, really don't. I had a lovely six month relationship with a trans woman. I'm not a gay male. I'm not a drag queen. About the only freaky thing I do is firedancing to steel drums and forget to wear inflammable undies from time to time.

And I can say this right now - those who point and say "THEY'RE THE REASON WHY WE'RE NOT ACCEPTED! THEM! THOSE FREAKS!" are doing far more harm to their cause than those who go, "Yeah, they're not my thing. This is my thing."

Sorry. You're letting the drama and your personal preferences drag you into xenophobic behavior and statements.

Which is sad. And more than a little ironic.

 

[Jenvas1306]

Snip to not display that again

you are malinformed, transgenderism is not a more extreme variant of transvestism or drag. its a fundamentally different thing.
gender and sex are independant, most people are fortunate enough to have gotten them fitting to each other, but nature is not perfect and there are lots of variants of both

AND nothing is getting chopped off, thats a horrible false view that puts something into a frankenstein-light that should be the pride of any surgeon who does such surgeries with great success.


captcha: x all the y
you creep me out captcha, seriously...

Oh, I understand the difference between sex and gender. Which is why I find the whole surgical aspect barbaric -- if there's really a difference, why get the surgery? You cannot reassign sex like that. Like I said, it's your body, get the surgery if you want, but it reflects more on society's hangups in regards to sex and gender than it does on any sort of reality about being born in the wrong body or what have you. If gender really were entirely societally constructed, there would be no need for the surgery, would there?

see it like that, my brain was wired to work in a female body, there is that general feeling of something being wrong for all the time it wasnt female and then there is my natural set of urges, that would usually assure that I do stuff to reproduce. those urges are also laid out to work with a female body. now if my body isnt capable to fullfill those urges I can never have a worthwhile sexlife at all and would be missing that part of life compleetly (hint: testosterone gives additional presure, making that a real pain in the ass). it also seems that I function way better when my brain swims in female hormones, seems that was configured for that aswell.
I love my boyfriend and that love also makes me want to be together with him in ways that arent possible if my body was male. by now I have a body that doesnt feel wrong to me and that allows me to fullfill some of my basic needs, so double profit from having that surgery.
So it has all very personal reasons and isnt just to appear more female, that is something I was able to achive with longer hair and the right clothing way earlier.
If being transgender was some sort of a physical illness, then surgery and hormone therapy was the best cure there is as of today.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

I don't think that drag queens make fun of transgender people. The way I've come in contact with drag queens is that it is (or was?) a fixture in gay male life, even though many gay men I've come to know don't exactly admire drag queens, while others think it's hilarious good fun and another, less vocal group seems to be quite scared of / put off by them.

The hijra of India and the ladyboys of Thailand do not make part of this at times very vocal and very aggressive, self-declared trans-'feminist' agency. It's a very Western problem, and there are reasons for that.

If transgender (any variabilities of the word, term, description, definition included) people are offended by this, I tend to perceive them as being intolerant. If transgender people do not accept the norms of heterosexual society to be applicaple to them, good luck. If they go down in some sort of turf war with homosexual men and try to tell them how to behave themselves and what to like and what not to do, I find that pretty invasive and intolerant.

I don't get many a thing of and within the LBGTESDFSLERWSNEFvVGAWLFFN 'movement', but I especially don't get all the hate and territorial pissing... and, boy, there's a lot of that.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Snip to not display that again

you are malinformed, transgenderism is not a more extreme variant of transvestism or drag. its a fundamentally different thing.
gender and sex are independant, most people are fortunate enough to have gotten them fitting to each other, but nature is not perfect and there are lots of variants of both

AND nothing is getting chopped off, thats a horrible false view that puts something into a frankenstein-light that should be the pride of any surgeon who does such surgeries with great success.


captcha: x all the y
you creep me out captcha, seriously...

Oh, I understand the difference between sex and gender. Which is why I find the whole surgical aspect barbaric -- if there's really a difference, why get the surgery? You cannot reassign sex like that. Like I said, it's your body, get the surgery if you want, but it reflects more on society's hangups in regards to sex and gender than it does on any sort of reality about being born in the wrong body or what have you. If gender really were entirely societally constructed, there would be no need for the surgery, would there?

see it like that, my brain was wired to work in a female body, there is that general feeling of something being wrong for all the time it wasnt female and then there is my natural set of urges, that would usually assure that I do stuff to reproduce. those urges are also laid out to work with a female body. now if my body isnt capable to fullfill those urges I can never have a worthwhile sexlife at all and would be missing that part of life compleetly (hint: testosterone gives additional presure, making that a real pain in the ass). it also seems that I function way better when my brain swims in female hormones, seems that was configured for that aswell.
I love my boyfriend and that love also makes me want to be together with him in ways that arent possible if my body was male. by now I have a body that doesnt feel wrong to me and that allows me to fullfill some of my basic needs, so double profit from having that surgery.
So it has all very personal reasons and isnt just to appear more female, that is something I was able to achive with longer hair and the right clothing way earlier.
If being transgender was some sort of a physical illness, then surgery and hormone therapy was the best cure there is as of today.

Okay, I can buy that... but it looks like, at least in your experience, sex and gender are one and the same, but you personally were intersexed in that you had a female brain in an otherwise male body. So which is it? Are sex and gender two separate ideas, or is drawing a line there a red herring?

Personally I've always preferred to have the terms "Sex" and "gender" be interchangeable, with "gender identity" or "gender role" being the socially constructed part, but it's not politically correct to say that anymore, despite it making the kind of discussion we're having here easier to understand on both sides.

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

As a straight white male, I'm cool with drag queens and transvestites. I think (and I'm going to be /really/ unpopular for saying this) that full blown transgender, as in the chopping bits off and getting hormone replacement variety, on the other hand, is a product of just how bloody hung up we are as a society on the socially mandated aspects of gender. You identify with the societal aspects of femininity, great. You still have a penis, and chopping it off isn't going to change that, you're just going to be a dude who chopped off his penis.

I'm not quite sure I'll totally agree with this, but I will state that having been to the Philippines for work, there's quite a few professionals who are termed "question marks".

As in, on the gender M/F part of an employment form, they put "?"

The term is used as a stopgap there because those individuals don't SAY if they're male or female. And it doesn't matter. It might be unnerving for a woman from America or Europe to see someone go into the stall next to them and stand up with feet facing the toilet, or for a slender young man to go into the men's room and sit down (though probably more obvious in the women's restroom). But ultimately it doesn't affect their lives - professionally or otherwise.

And call it what you want - a less conservative society, blah blah blah, but the reality is the majority of the Phillippines is either Muslim or Catholic.

Could you imagine how the trans population of the States would react to being called a "question mark"? For that matter, can you imagine how my relation of this story will engender a huge backlash of vitriol launched about that term? Can you imagine the rage that would normally ensue from someone who's got their knickers in a bunch about the trans identity if THEY were referred to as a question mark?

Of course, I don't speak Tagalog. So I've no idea if it's a linguistic translation or what. But it is a functional term for those whose external gender is, well, a question mark. They seem to take the very reasonable stance that the only people that care about it are the people directly involved in a situation where the definition of one's gender would actually matter to anyone outside of said person and their immediate social circle.

So what Owyn said. You're an adult. Do what you want to do.

As for me, I'd say absolutely do what you want to do - surgery, drag shows, whatever. Just don't expect the world to applaud you for your bravery every time you do. And don't scream bloody murder when people don't do what you would.

 

[Jenvas1306]

SNIP

Okay, I can buy that... but it looks like, at least in your experience, sex and gender are one and the same, but you personally were intersexed in that you had a female brain in an otherwise male body. So which is it? Are sex and gender two separate ideas, or is drawing a line there a red herring?

Personally I've always preferred to have the terms "Sex" and "gender" be interchangeable, with "gender identity" or "gender role" being the socially constructed part, but it's not politically correct to say that anymore, despite it making the kind of discussion we're having here easier to understand on both sides.

we have the terms sex, gender and gender identity. gender is often used as a cover for all things, including sex and gender identy and gender roles. sex just speaks of the physical status, there for my sex is now pretty much female, even I do have to live with some limitations.
gender identiy is where it gets really complicated. from myself speaking, I allways had my brain configured to be female (more or less), but that just made me feel wrong with male hormones and made me struggle to feel comfortable in male social roles, even without failing it was allways just an act. to get to a female gender identity I first had to overcome my own believe to be male, after all that was what my body told me and I did thing that sex and gender were the same.
after that I tried to just be myself and not let social constructs and constrictions hinder me in that. In the end I achived a female gender indentity, as that came naturally and with ease, but I still try to just be myself and only conform to social roles as far as its natural to me, but also not less.

Its a complicated topic and i guess thats why there is so much confusion.
its like with schroedingers genderindenty, just that there are as many options as there are people and that its hard to find out even for the individual itself. while sex (the bodily presentation, not the activity) tends to be more but not fully binary.

EDIT: added clarification that I didnt mean the activity called sex

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

Its a complicated topic and i guess thats why there is so much confusion.
its like with schroedingers genderindenty, just that there are as many options as there are people and that its hard to find out even for the individual itself. while sex tends to be more but not fully binary.

I always thought of sex like comedy. Try to analyze it and you miss all the good bits.

...also, the sight of two (or more) people humping, once you take all the other stuff out of it, is just bloody hilarious and ridiculous.

Tell me you haven't fallen off the bed or had a mishap in the bedroom and I'll say, "So, who exactly was your last significant other? Mmmhmm, and how do I get in touch with them?"

 

[Lieju]

I don't care.

But if the joke is just 'lol, a guy is dressed as a girl!' that's dumb.

But take Monty Python, for example, that's never just the joke, there's always more to it.

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

I don't care.

But if the joke is just 'lol, a guy is dressed as a girl!' that's dumb.
But take Monty Python, for example, that's never just the joke, there's always more to it.

First, I'll try to ignore the sheer nails-on-a-blackboard cringing feeling I get when I see someone use 'lol' unironically in a conversation not involving text or IM.

Second, what joke have you seen on television, or in a theater revue, or in a burlesque or cabaret act has JUST used "oh, it's a man in woman's clothing" and called it good for a joke?

That's like saying, "If a hamburger that's just a piece of meat between two buns. That's just stupid. But take McDonald's, for example. They have, like, bacon habenero quarter pounders and Big Macs and the Double Double. There's more to a good burger than that."

Really? Comedy takes more than a change of clothing? No shit! DAMMIT. Well, there goes my standup career. Back to making boring meat-and-buns burgers!

 

[Psykoma]

I´m fine with drag queens.
I find it troublesome when drag queens are equated to trans people, but I can´t fault the drag queen community as a whole for that.

 

[Lieju]

I don't care.

But if the joke is just 'lol, a guy is dressed as a girl!' that's dumb.
But take Monty Python, for example, that's never just the joke, there's always more to it.

First, I'll try to ignore the sheer nails-on-a-blackboard cringing feeling I get when I see someone use 'lol' unironically in a conversation not involving text or IM.

Yes, because my use of it, to make fun of someone else's attitude was obviously unironic.

lol

Second, what joke have you seen on television, or in a theater revue, or in a burlesque or cabaret act has JUST used "oh, it's a man in woman's clothing" and called it good for a joke?

That's like saying, "If a hamburger that's just a piece of meat between two buns. That's just stupid. But take McDonald's, for example. They have, like, bacon habenero quarter pounders and Big Macs and the Double Double. There's more to a good burger than that."

Really? Comedy takes more than a change of clothing? No shit! DAMMIT. Well, there goes my standup career. Back to making boring meat-and-buns burgers!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0381707/
Most of cross-dressin in movies and tv is that.

I see nothing funny (or offensive) in a man in a dress.