Dragon Age 2 post mortem

[votemarvel]

The biggest thing about Kirkwall that annoyed me was that we are battered over the head with the information that the city is packed to the rafters with refugees and can't possibly take in any more.

However when we get into the city we find it virtually empty.

 

[Mister K]

Origins was boring. Oh damn, it was SO boring. Just another cliche fantasy world with cliche Bioware story. Another game about a chosen one with a cast of characters made out of funny friend, good girl, *****, drunk axe-wielding dwarf and a feminine elf. Another story about big bad evil and about you being a special snowflake that will unite everyone.
And please do not remind me of a horrible gameplay. I undersand when greatsword-wielding guy moves as if under the water, but when a rogue moves like that? Unaceptable. Also, huge disbalance in power of classes.

With DAII They at least TRIED to do at least something new. Yes, the game was rushed and unpolished, yes gameplay was too flashy, yes ending was blatantly announcing sequel, yes for some if not most people being unable to pick a race is a huge minus. I agree with all of this. However I am willing to cut it some slack at the very least because they tried to move away from Tolkiens lap. Dwarf who is NOT a drunk axe-wielding goof? Elf using a greatsword? Person who is using dark forbidden arts and IS NOT a *****? A female warrior that actually looks like one? Yes please.

Overall, if DAII deserves 7 out of 10, then for me Origins deserves 6, and that is a gift for being made by Bioware.

 

[Sanunes]

I don't get the DA2 hate.

Can't really see how. There was a radical change in design principals and objectives; naturally this would result in a backlash.

On top of that there's the obvious stuff:

- Rushed product.
- Worse graphics.
- Poor encounter design (wave-combat)
- Streamlined inventory management.
- Shitty New artstyle.
- No companion customization.
- Less class customization.
- Massive recycling of set pieces.
- Crappy cameos.
- Three barely connected story-arcs that can only play out thanks to immense stupidity on all sides.
- The ending.

Etc, etc.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't think Dragon Age 2 was a perfect game and nobody had a reason to find faults. To me the problem is the extremes they went to because of it, to me it feels like people latched on to every single issue and decided that it was a war crime. For games like Alien: Colonial Marines, Resident Evil 6, Duke Nukem Forever, Diablo 3, and even Destiny had major problems that frustrated gamers and even have laundry lists of issues that go with them. I just never saw the vile that was associated with Dragon Age 2 (or Mass Effect 3). For it would be nice to have a cupcake drive to get a better story for Destiny.

 

[happyninja42]

So with Dragon Age 3 on the horizon next month it's probably time for a final Dragon Age 2 thread to put our thoughts to rest on this controversial game.


1. Lord of the Rings slower style tactical combat replaced with button mashing less tactical anime style combat with waves.
Combat was a bit reason why DA2 failed. Sure it was slightly more interesting visually, but enemies and characters teleported around, enemies teleported in from the ceiling making positioning impossible, and generally the feel of Origins as a grounded fantasy experience was completely compromised.

I didn't mind the combat system to be honest, other than the repetition and copy/paste nature of the maps and enemies. But as far as the actual way the combat worked, I thought it was pretty fun. It felt more weighty to me, I actually felt like a bastard sword wielding badass when I used that system. And it was one of the few times that I actually wanted to play a warrior class. I usually do mages or rogues, almost exclusively, because I find the big warrior style character kind of boring. But not with DA 2. I really enjoyed leaping in, smashing my enemies with a weapon swipe, stabbing, cleaving, etc. I enjoyed it. xD But yeah the repetition of it was VERY bad, enough to darken my enjoyment of the class because it felt like I was doing the same stuff over and over...which I was.

2. Changes in art style.
The art style of many creatures changed between the games. The actual art (concept arts etc.) of the games remained a similar style, but things like the look of armour and the design of the Darkspawn and the Elves changed for no reason and lost a lot of their grittiness and realism from the first game to be replaced by brutal spikey stuff. Everything in game looked a lot worse and there were low res textures everywhere.

Eh, I didn't really notice this, though I usually play games on lower res because of my computer. Also as a result, the graphics quality, while somewhat important, isn't game breaking for me. However the "Qunari now have horns like a fucking moose" change in the art style was highly jarring and annoying. Other than that though, meh, I can live with it.

3. Disjointed story
The games story about Hawke's journey across the course of 10 years really interested me, but instead it ended up as being a fairly hollow experience of 3 different plots with only Hawke and Kirkwall as the constants. The companions all had bizarre off screen character development, as did Hawke, and the game felt like it climaxed after the Qunari invasion, a lot of momentum was taken out of the story after act 2 ended. Also Kirkwall didn't change or evolve, all areas always seemed the same, which brings us to point 4. ~Also they changed Anders character and Merill was an idiot.

This is an interesting thread for me. Because as I sit here, someone who doesn't really like DA 2 that much, and got highly frustrated with a lot of things about it, I'm finding little to fault in the points you are bringing up. Which I find fascinating. I have a LOT of issues with this game, don't misunderstand me, but apparently not the same issues that you have. xD

Mine almost all are dumped in this point here. The story. Omg, the story. So many problems here. I enjoyed the evolution over time aspect of it, but I agree it didn't feel like anything you were doing was really making much difference, because it wasn't. That is the crux of my dislike for this game. The lack of agency in events. Oh sure, they give you dialogue choices all over the place, but having played through it a few times, and making a point to pick different choices at certain points, the end result is the same. Seriously you have no direct impact on the story at all. No matter what you choose, the end result is the same. And I don't mean just the big "shit hits the fan and a war breaks out" aspect, that I don't mind too much, since this is a flashback story, so the absolute final result was predetermined. That's fine, a game based around the "how we got to this point" doesn't really irk me. It's the smaller stuff where you had no choice, or your choices had zero difference in the end result. If you're going to have it where all of my dialogue choices end up with the same result...then why even bother giving me choices? Seriously, just have the event take place in a cutscene and be done with it. This more than anything pushed the game into my "didn't like" category.

However...the game had so much potential to be good but ultimately fell flat because of these 4 points. What will you remember about DA2?

I will remember the dwarf. Oh my god he was awesome. Seriously I always had him in my party, every playthrough. He was just so entertaining to have around. His dialogue in conversation scenes, his random banter with my other party members, just, so much damn fun. That voice actor had charisma oozing out of the speakers in that game, and it really showed in how much I empathized with him. I will remember my enjoyment of the combat system, and hope they make it more diverse in the next game. Sitting here, thinking about the game, those are the only positive things I can think of without replaying it and making notes. Which I'm not going to do. xD

 

[votemarvel]

I agree with all of this. However I am willing to cut it some slack at the very least because they tried to move away from Tolkiens lap. Dwarf who is NOT a drunk axe-wielding goof?

I've never really understood the comparisons to Tolkien's work to be honest.

Aside from maybe the Dwarves, the social and political landscapes are hugely different. Tolkien didn't invent elves, dwarves, mages etc. Just because those races exist in a setting doesn't mean they are copying him.

 

[thetoddo]

I finally finished it a few weeks ago after buying it day one (not buying a new console till I finish the games I bought for the current-gens) and starting it 4-5 times and getting bored early into act 2. There just wasn't a throughline that kept my interest, how Hawke became the hero of Kirkwall really wasn't a big enough mystery for me to keep plugging forward. I pushed through and there were parts of the story that were really good, but the fact that the game pretty much forced you to do all of the boring fetch quests before moving on really slowed down the pacing. Then there was the great dragon fight that came out of nowhere (though it was actually fun because I wasn't expecting it and since I wasn't expecting a boss fight I was bringing along characters I normally didn't just so I could hear new dialogue stuff and thus had an enjoyably rough fight) because I hadn't picked up the quest for it yet.

All that aside, I had a lot of fun with the game because I knew Inquisition was coming and they were setting up a lot of cool conflicts and backstory. I think that was what was missing in my earlier playthroughs. As part of an ongoing narrative the story is a lot better, though a 30+ hour prologue to Inquisition is a bit much. I don't think the game stands well on it's own though.

 

[Mister K]

I agree with all of this. However I am willing to cut it some slack at the very least because they tried to move away from Tolkiens lap. Dwarf who is NOT a drunk axe-wielding goof?

I've never really understood the comparisons to Tolkien's work to be honest.

Aside from maybe the Dwarves, the social and political landscapes are hugely different. Tolkien didn't invent elves, dwarves, mages etc. Just because those races exist in a setting doesn't mean they are copying him.

Well, after LOTR, many people started to use those races in the same way as Tolkien did. Was it homage at first? Or was it lack of creativity and an attempt to get some money thanks to familiar settings? I do not know. But even today in vast majority of high fantasy, elves are "tree-huggers" with bows and dwarfs are rough, live underground and use axes. Oh, and they bicker with each other. Oh, also medieval setting, can't forget about that.

But, to be fair, if someone who isn't writing comedy will try write their books with different elves, orcs, dwarfs, whatever, they will be criticized for having " not believable setting" or something.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Even though I liked it, DA2 was definitely a troubled game.
Personally I would rate it a 6/10.

Despite that, I can't really see the massive outrage about it either. I guess I just never get *into* something that much and then explode when it didn't live up to my expectations.
Many of the critiques I see on the internet are also obvisouly by people who either never played the game or ran through it on easymode difficulty.

Ultimately I got about 110 hours out of DA2 over the course of 2.5 playthroughs. Way more than for most games I spent the same amount of money on.

I'm looking forward to DA:I quite a bit as they seem to be adressing all the problems I had with the second installment, returning to the broad scope of DA:O but keeping the strong points of DA2 nonetheless.

 

[happyninja42]

Even though I liked it, DA2 was definitely a troubled game.
Personally I would rate it a 6/10.

Despite that, I can't really see the massive outrage about it either. I guess I just never get *into* something that much and then explode when it didn't live up to my expectations.

I didn't really have super expectations for it, other than expecting it to be a well done game. This is something I had come to expect from Bioware by this point, given their track record of good games, with good mechanics, and good stories. This one however didn't hold up in all of these categories. I personally didn't have a problem with the combat system like others did, except for the repetition of the same fights in the same maps. Otherwise I enjoyed the fight system. But the story, ugh, so many things wrong with it in that respect that it brought down everything else about the game for me.

Many of the critiques I see on the internet are also obvisouly by people who either never played the game or ran through it on easymode difficulty.

Not really sure what the difficulty setting has to do with a critique of the game, unless they are saying "the game is so easy I might as well sleep while playing it." Other than that, a bad game will still be a bad game, on easy mode, or hardcore.

Ultimately I got about 110 hours out of DA2 over the course of 2.5 playthroughs. Way more than for most games I spent the same amount of money on.

Cool, glad you enjoyed it that much. I probably played it an equal amount of time, but it got less enjoyable for me as I tried different directions with the plot, only to have them all end in the same result.

I'm looking forward to DA:I quite a bit as they seem to be adressing all the problems I had with the second installment, returning to the broad scope of DA:O but keeping the strong points of DA2 nonetheless.

I hope that's the case. I personally felt that DA2 had an awesome premise and setting, that suffered from a less than stellar script and design, and shackled by the fact that it had to end in a certain way, to set up for Inquisition. I'm less annoyed by this though, since the game opens up with the premise of "this entire game is a flashback". We already knew that shit had hit the fan from the opening scene. How they got there though, felt really forced in my opinion. Still, I'll eventually get Inquisition, to see where they go with it, but I'm not as eager for it as I used to be for anything Bioware did.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Agreed with the "entire game is a flashback" thing obviously hinting at the lower quality of the story in DA2. People playing on easy difficulty was a reference to the many complaints about the length of the game when those people complaining obviously powered through the main storyline only on very low settings.

I feel that when you're trying to put a value on game time you should sort of look at the point between both extremes (those who don't care about anything and just blow through it and those who do every little thing).

Ultimately ending up with a completely different result isn't very important to me, it's the changes in the characters and the events between the start of a game and the ending that I enjoy more. The best game ever for me in that regard was KOTOR2, yet that game didn't have a very different ending no matter what you did either.

I don't expect DA:I to be that much different. It's almost impossible to do when you're making a franchise of games anyhow.

 

[babinro]

Spoiler

I've had a long break from the franchise (couple years maybe?) and am now revisiting the games.

2 months ago I would have told you that Dragon Age: Origins was my second favorite RPG of all time (FF6 being my favorite). I LOVED the games story, characters, combat and how much meaning your choices had. The experience was near perfect save for some poor pacing in parts (deep roads was such a grind-fest).

Having just replaced the game I've changed my mind. The story as a whole is still great. It's a simple LOTR style tale and the choices you make leading up to the landsmeet are great.

The characters though were surprisingly weak for the most part. Especially characters I previously loved like Alistair, Morigan and Leliana. I guess I have to blame the improved quality in characters we've seen in gaming over the years. The gameplay also got boring this time around. I'd still call it good but it's nothing great like I remember. The overall game felt very much like a 6/10 gaming experience where I felt it was a solid 9/10 before (note: I've played through this game at least 5 times over the years so this wasn't my first time going back).

I dread going back into Dragon Age: Awakening (which I'll be doing tomorrow). I wasn't crazy about that game before and I'm thinking it'll be awful now.

I'm most interested in DA:2. I LOVED the combat in that game and felt it FAR exceeding the original in terms of sheer enjoyment. The story was actually wonderful up until the end of Act 2. It failed to properly build up Act 3 and left me annoyed by the lack of investment in the last boss encounter. The characters were hit and miss. I particularly enjoyed Varric and Merrill. I look forward to finding out how this game holds up after Awakening.

Just wanted to update on my experience from the last post above...

Dragon Age: Awakening was just as terrible as I remember. Anders is about the only interesting part of it but the story is all around uninteresting. The game itself isn't bad but it's just a much weaker follow up to Origins and so the negative aspects are that much more apparent.

Dragon Age 2: Wow...this game is AWESOME!

I forgot that the combat in this game was so amazing! It reminds me of going from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2 except DA2 is even more fun thanks to some added depth in character building. The cross class combos are so satisfying to pull off as well. This game actually makes me enjoy the grind where Dragon Age Orgins Deep Roads made me want to quit the game.

My love for the combat seems to have enhanced my enjoyment for the rest of the game as well. I find myself more genuinely involved with the side quest and city characters in DA2. The fact that you grow with them over the years really helps enforce this feeling of interest. Even brooding emo characters like Fenris come across as more interesting on this revisit.

I'm only nearing the end of Act 2 at the time of this post so I'm not done with the game. I remember Act 3 severely dragging the experience down and I don't expect that to change. DA2 should have ended with Act2, period.

It's strange to say this...but for the first time ever I can confidently call Dragon Age 2 the best entry in the franchise. Everything about the experience is way more positive now that the years have passed. Origins contains elements and ideas that are superior but the overall product doesn't stand the test of time.

This actually makes me a little concerned for Inquisition. I really haven't followed that games development as I'm staying spoiler free but I naturally assume it'll heavily take from Origins since that's the only popular entry in the series. I wouldn't be surprised if Inquisition pretends DA2 never existed given the fan backlash on the game. I guess we'll know for sure soon enough.

Bottom line: DA2 > DA:Origins > > > DA: Awakening.

 

[endtherapture]

Origins was boring. Oh damn, it was SO boring. Just another cliche fantasy world with cliche Bioware story. Another game about a chosen one with a cast of characters made out of funny friend, good girl, *****, drunk axe-wielding dwarf and a feminine elf. Another story about big bad evil and about you being a special snowflake that will unite everyone.
And please do not remind me of a horrible gameplay. I undersand when greatsword-wielding guy moves as if under the water, but when a rogue moves like that? Unaceptable. Also, huge disbalance in power of classes.

With DAII They at least TRIED to do at least something new. Yes, the game was rushed and unpolished, yes gameplay was too flashy, yes ending was blatantly announcing sequel, yes for some if not most people being unable to pick a race is a huge minus. I agree with all of this. However I am willing to cut it some slack at the very least because they tried to move away from Tolkiens lap. Dwarf who is NOT a drunk axe-wielding goof? Elf using a greatsword? Person who is using dark forbidden arts and IS NOT a *****? A female warrior that actually looks like one? Yes please.

Overall, if DAII deserves 7 out of 10, then for me Origins deserves 6, and that is a gift for being made by Bioware.

No feminine elf in Origins, there was a feminine elf in 2 though. #rekt

Either way, Origins was an amazing, polished experience, that's about as close to a perfectly executed game as you're going to get. It did some interesting stuff with lore despite an overall story, and I'd take it over the unfinished DA2 with good intentions. If I really want to play an RPG with an interesting concept, I'll just load up The Witcher 2.

 

[Mister K]

Origins was boring. Oh damn, it was SO boring. Just another cliche fantasy world with cliche Bioware story. Another game about a chosen one with a cast of characters made out of funny friend, good girl, *****, drunk axe-wielding dwarf and a feminine elf. Another story about big bad evil and about you being a special snowflake that will unite everyone.
And please do not remind me of a horrible gameplay. I undersand when greatsword-wielding guy moves as if under the water, but when a rogue moves like that? Unaceptable. Also, huge disbalance in power of classes.

With DAII They at least TRIED to do at least something new. Yes, the game was rushed and unpolished, yes gameplay was too flashy, yes ending was blatantly announcing sequel, yes for some if not most people being unable to pick a race is a huge minus. I agree with all of this. However I am willing to cut it some slack at the very least because they tried to move away from Tolkiens lap. Dwarf who is NOT a drunk axe-wielding goof? Elf using a greatsword? Person who is using dark forbidden arts and IS NOT a *****? A female warrior that actually looks like one? Yes please.

Overall, if DAII deserves 7 out of 10, then for me Origins deserves 6, and that is a gift for being made by Bioware.

No feminine elf in Origins, there was a feminine elf in 2 though. #rekt

Either way, Origins was an amazing, polished experience, that's about as close to a perfectly executed game as you're going to get. It did some interesting stuff with lore despite an overall story, and I'd take it over the unfinished DA2 with good intentions. If I really want to play an RPG with an interesting concept, I'll just load up The Witcher 2.

*Cough* Zevran *cough.

To avoid low content post accusation, I will also say this: everybody deserves the right to play what they like, so if you like DAO, well, whatever, your opinion.

EDIT: P.S. I cannot believev I still remember the name of this guy.

 

[Aesir23]

Personally, I really liked Dragon Age 2.

As far as the gameplay goes, I really liked how the combat was faster paced than Origins. It's still a little too fast which makes me happy about how they seemed to have slowed it down a tad for DAI but in a visual sense DA2's combat was much more exciting than DAO's. As much as I love Origins, I'm actually getting bored as I play through it again.

The story was definitely far from perfect due to the rushed nature of its development (no thanks to EA) but I like the notion that no matter how powerful or influential you may be, there are some things that you just can't fix.

Also, this tends to be where my opinion differs massively from most other Dragon Age fans but I like the introduction of a voiced protagonist. To me it helps make the protagonist a more 'real' character, much like Shepard, whereas the Warden felt more like a prop.

I also liked the companions somewhat better than those in Origins. Don't get me wrong, I still adore the likes of characters like Alistair and Oghren and I genuinely felt like there was a mother-daughter relationship between Wynne and my Warden Cousland. However, none of them really fascinated me as much as the DA2 companions, Fenris in particular. I'm not sure why but I was just much more interested by the different facets of their personalities and what could be going on with them in a psychological sense.

Objectively, Origins was the better game but all of the stuff I mentioned above has sort of combined to make DA2 my favourite out of the two. It really makes me wonder what kind of game DA2 could have been if EA hadn't rushed BioWare with its development.

 

[Raikas]

I liked a lot of what DA2 tried to do, and most of what I found lacking (at least on the second playthrough - I confess that my first impression was less positive since it wasn't what I was expecting from a follow-up to DAO) was completely due to the rushed release - things like the recycled environments and the absurdity of enemies falling from the skies. That those things were fixed in the DLC made it clear to me that the devs were aware of the issues, and I thought that was a positive as well.

The one element that I loved was the simple fact that it gave us a fantasy game that was driven by something other than a grand epic story - I realize that that's something that many people would call a flaw, but from my perspective that was a brilliant choice. I also liked the subtlety of impact of choices - I liked the variety of dialogue changes (I was still hearing new lines in my 4th playthrough), and appreciated that more than the dramatic ritual vs. sacrifice ending choices from DAO. And this is even more subjective, but I enjoyed the humour of the game, and thought that having a voiced protagonist aided that.

I'm also fairly neutral on the gameplay changes - I found combat to be fairly balanced, which is all I ask of a game (although to be fair, I generally play on hard, and a lot of the complaints I've heard were about the easiness of normal or the 1-shot deaths on nightmare, so I appreciate that there might be flaws there for others).

That said, DAO was clearly a more complete and polished game, so I don't disagree with people who criticize the game on those grounds, I just think that it's a shame to miss the things that DA2 did well, because to my mind when DA2 got something right those elements were brilliant.