Dragon Age - Duncan was NOT a good person (Spoiler warning)

[TheMigrantSoldier]

Duncan didn't even try to reason with Jory beyond "there's no turning back". Not even a warning. Just a brief shanking even after hearing of his wife and unborn child. I mean, absolutely no Grey Wardens felt fear or hesitation during the ritual? It all happened under ten seconds.

As to the recruitment offer, Duncan is reasonably pragmatic. The Grey Wardens are grey because they have all sorts of saints and sinners in their ranks (And they also tend to keep neutral in affairs not relating to the Blight). From a common cutthroat to a blueblood, it doesn't matter, he needs your help and he's not sure if you'll do it out of the good of your heart.

 

[Animyr]

Duncan? What, that character who was in the game for about four scenes (not counting the multiple origins)? I never was really able to form an opinion on him. Pity too; he seemed like an interesting character, in part due to the discrepancy between the "kind mentor" image he presents and the ruthless soldier he is that the OP points out. I wish you had the time to form some sort of relationship with him first.

 

[Lunar Templar]

Some one seems to have missed the bit about the Grey Wardens being an order that embodies 'The Ends Justify The Means' practically to the letter. It's not about good or evil, it's about getting shit done that needs to get done.

As for Jory, meh, he was a coward. If he was really serous about protecting his family, he'd have pounded that goblet o blood like there was a prize for speed, but he got scared cause some one died, and tried to back out. Never mind Duncan saying several times that this ritual was dangerous, but nope, numb nuts draws a weapon on a superior officer. That kinda shit used to get you offed on the spot.

So in short, no, he's not a 'good guy', nor is he a 'bad guy'. He's a Grey Warden, that's just how they roll.

 

[Saltyk]

The Wardens are completely "ends justify the means" everything that helps them kill more Darkspawn (talk about generic... sheesh) is accepted. The Grey Wardens welcome Blood mages and convicts in their midst. They are not the "good guys" they are the necessary guys, those that get shit done no matter the costs. Duncan represents this.

Exactly this. The Grey Wardens are needed. And the game makes it perfectly clear that they don't give a damn who you are or what your past is. If you can fight and they can get you to join up, they will happily enlist you. Especially in times of a Blight.

Are you a paragon of virtue and nobility? Great. They'll take you.
Are you a thief who preys on the weak? Fantastic. They need you.
Do you utilize forbidden powers that could wreck havoc on the world no better than a Blight? Hey, if you can help them stop a Blight they will happily take you.

The Grey Wardens had no concern for morality. They were concerned with effectiveness. Nothing more and nothing less.

As for Jory, he came off as a coward. It was pretty obvious, he was less than happy to be there and even less willing to join. He always seemed to want to turn tail and run. As I recall, when you meet Morrigan, he acts like a frightened little child who thinks she'll turn you all into toads or something. It's perfectly obvious Jory was going to run away and tell what he learned to any who would listen. And it would only be half the story. As we also learn, only a grey warden can kill an archfiend! Imagine what would happen in future Blights if no one was willing to join, but no one knew just how necessary the Wardens were.

Duncan was not good or bad. But he was a hero to his country. Or would have been.

 

[Arionis]

Duncan was never meant to be that good a guy. The only person who puts him on that pedestal is Alistair, a guy who views Duncan as a father figure. The Wardens are all about "the end justifies the means". They don't care about your feelings or aspirations. The only thing they care about is how well you handle a sword. They have a world to preserve and they will do anything to achieve that.

This, really, is all that needs said.

Also, perhaps spoiler tags, although you did warn and apologize from the beginning about spoilers, so that's really not even an issue.

(also, least he stood by his king, unlike some other potential party members)

 

[Alarien]

Most people exit basic training with alot of respect for their drill sergeant, who treated them like absolute shit for 2 months.

This depends heavily on your drill sergeant. I had a lot of like and respect for mine (2), but, of the other regular drill sergeants for the company (6), I had respect and like for about ... err. one of them. That makes 3 out of 8 total.

We also were in the "political company" (US Army Infantry OSUT E-1/19) which had rotating 3rd drill sergeants from National Guard (Nasty Girl... sorry for the obvious misogyny of the US Army) units. Of the 16 or so rotating NG DS's, only 1 was even competent, and he was for my platoon.

I got lucky. Most don't.

Thanks again to SFC Stewart and SSG White. Great guys and good soldiers/NCO's. Not enough of them in the US Army back in the day.

 

[Littaly]

To me, the darker, more macabre side of the Grey Wardens is one of the strongest parts of Dragon Age's story. To me it has always, in a subtle way, been about the unfairness and inevitability of death, emphasizing the lack of choice and control in how you end your life.

Just joining the Grey Wardens has a 50% chance of taking your life, and if you refuse you'll die for sure. And once you've joined your ultimate purpose is to sacrifice yourself for the order, and if you survive all that, you still only get about half the lifespan of a regular person. The fact that Duncan doesn't really give you a choice is just one more sour aspect of the whole Grey Warden deal.

One of the reasons I've always held the story of Dragon Age: Origins in pretty high regard is because you play a character that has to make all his or her decisions with those circumstances in mind. It casts a different light over a lot of the life and death related choices you make, especially towards the end of the game.

Maybe it's a case of me reading too much into it, but to me it has always dealt with a pretty heavy subject in a subtle yet effective way.

 

[Littaly]

I think the darker, more macabre side of the Grey Wardens is one of the strongest parts of Dragon Age's story. To me it has always, in a sense, been about the unfairness and inevitability of death, emphasizing the lack of choice and control in how you end your life.

Just joining the Grey Wardens has a 50% chance of taking your life, and if you refuse you'll die for sure. And once you've joined your ultimate purpose is to sacrifice yourself for the order, and if you survive all that, you still only get about half the lifespan of a regular person. The fact that Duncan doesn't really give you a choice is just one more sour aspect of the whole Grey Warden deal.

One of the reasons I've always held the story of Dragon Age: Origins in pretty high regard is because you play a character that has to make all his or her decisions with those circumstances in mind. It casts a different light over a lot of the life and death related choices you make, especially towards the end of the game.

Maybe it's a case of me reading too much into it, but to me it has always dealt with a pretty heavy subject in a subtle yet effective way.

 

[AntiChri5]

Yeah, duncan was evil. I get ser Jory's desire to get away. I figure he wasn't told what this induction ceremony actually entails and bioware makes it look like that even if you survive this ordeal the rest of your life becomes a slow descend into psychopathic madness until you eventually turn into what you're fighting.

One might argue that this is a sacred secret or something and it can't get out because the grey wardens fear that the arch demons might come up with something to counter the grey warden's attempt to permanently kill them somehow.
Once you know how the grey wardens are made, you have to become one or possibly endanger the entire world.
Fair enough. But duncan could've just forced the dude to drink the "bloody mary". Maybe he'd die and maybe he'd be a grey warden, since there's apparently something in the blood that magically makes you loyal to your fellow, well, living things.

Refusing to drink the tainted blood is a complete and utter rejection of what it means to be a Grey Warden. Even if Duncan forces him to and he survives, will Duncan ever be able to rely on Jory? What other orders is he going to disobey because they aren't glorious enough? Will he simplyt desert and go back to his wife and child?

 

[Cecilo]

Duncan was as kind as his job allowed him to be. Yes, he forcibly recruits you if necessary, but that is what he needs to do. As he said when he recruits some of the players origin characters, he NEEDS to recruit someone, he cannot go back empty handed.

But even so, he is as kind and caring for his recruits as he can be, he treats you and Alistar like his kids when you get to the King's camp, regardless of your previous rank, he jokes around with you, offers you advice, allows you to acclimate and is overall a positive experience compared to the general crap you've already gone through.

As for Jory, I'm sorry. But Jory damn well knew that once it started it could not be stopped, and from what I got from Jory, he didn't have any moral reason for refusing, he was just afraid of dying, and that is to be fair a valid reason to be afraid,but he agreed to give his life for the Wardens and not a few weeks after he betrayed that oath.

But overall, it is as the Ancient Warden in the Old Warden Keep says. They are GREY Wardens, Not white or black. Not good or evil, they do what is necessary to preserve the world, they aren't like an old knight order with duty and honor being above everything else.

 

[Frostbyte666]

He's not a good person, not bad either. It's a case of doing what's needed is not necessarily doing what's good. In this case right for him is getting more recruits to bolster the grey warden numbers to fight against the blight. I can also understand why he murdered (not self defence) Ser Jory, if it became known that the ritual to become a grey warden was a death sentence, either immediately or within a decade or 2, how many volunteers do you think they'd have?

 

[Hades]

Snip.

Another thing that I'd like to add is that it's continually hinted at that your character doesn't survive without Duncan. All of the origin stories exist at the same time, but only one of them survives because Duncan was there to save them. And if you're one of those types, OP, to not take such hindsight seriously, it's easy enough to look at each of the origin stories themselves just as an isolated portion to realize that you really wouldn't survive without Duncan's help. He's saving your life. I think it's fair to ask for your help in saving the world.

The mage warden might have survived without Duncan when taking a certain path.
If you tattle on Johan to Irving everything you do for the rest of the origin is by the permission of the first enchanter. Irving outright says to Gregor you have done nothing wrong and later in the game Gregor admits that in the Ferelden circle at least, it is the first enchanter who is in charge.

 

[Karadalis]

Apologies in advance if this is a thread that's been done before.

As those who have played Dragon Age will ell you, in every origin story you pick, you are recruited one way or the other by a man named Duncan, who later inducts your into the order of the Grey Wardens. However, as I look back over those various origin stories, a thought comes into my mind. In every one of them, you are essentially being removed from a bad situation and thrust into this life of adventure, and Duncan is the one who holds the keys to get out.

Now, rather than simply helping you out of what various problems you're involved with, many of which would probably result in your death, he insists that you pay him back by joining his order. He knows that it's your only choice, that or death, thus giving the characters in question no real choice at all. He could have helped them out of the goodness of his heart or something, but no, he asks for something in return.

Now many at this point will be saying that it was necessity on his part. There was a blight at the time and his order needed every able body it could get it's hands on to fight against it, so obviously he'd want to recruit in any way he could. And that's true, desperate times and all that. But even so, he's treated as some sort of hero by characters like Alistair, who mourn his passing later on in the game. But he's no hero, but an opportunist to took whatever opportunity he had to achieve his end, even recruiting people who had little choice but to go with him in order to avoid death or worse.

And then there's Ser Jory. During the recruitment, one fellow candidate changes his mind about joining and wants to back out. Duncan responds to this by outright killing the guy. Again, he could have taken the good guy option and just let him go, this guy who has a wife and child waiting for him back home, but no, he gives him death instead. Now I know he claims self-defense in that by saying Jory was reaching for his sword, but as far as I'm concerned, he killed him just because he was trying to get out of what Duncan wanted for him, to be a Grey Warden.

I can understand if people don't think of Duncan as evil, because believe me there are far worse people in this game than him. But I cannot accept him as one of the good guys because of the reasons I've listed.

Couple of things since i just started playing DAO again.

Alistair admits in your very first chat with him that Duncan will do ANYTHING to win against the darkspawn and he doesnt sound all to happy about it. However he still highly respects Duncan for his qualities as a leader. Not because he thinks Duncan is a particulary good guy.

The scene with Ser jory is also easy to explain. The ritual is a tightly kept secret. No one outside the order of the gray wardens is allowed to know that the grey wardens are intentionaly drink the blood of darkspawn. Remember that said blood will either kill a human or turn them into monstrosities themselves.

If it became aparant that the grey warden drink what is basically the dark spawns teint the chantry and possibly everyone else would call for their heads. But in order to win against the blight the gray wardens have no other choice.

So Sir Jory could not be let go, he had to drink or die. That is what the gray wardens are. They arent real "heros" in the traditional sence since even your own character can be played as a merciless bastard who will do anything to win the war. The ends justify the means right? Thats basically the gray warden credo.

EDITH says:

As to awakening and everyone aparantly in the know about the ritual: Bad storytelling for a quick cash grab DLC expansion that had up till now no further bearing on the storytelling of what came after it. Heck i would be surprised if we saw that intelligent dark spawn tribe in inquisitor again. Bioware seems to have forgotten about them and the whole expansion of Awakening seemed tagged on and unnecesary.

 

[Madman123456]

Refusing to drink the tainted blood is a complete and utter rejection of what it means to be a Grey Warden. Even if Duncan forces him to and he survives, will Duncan ever be able to rely on Jory? What other orders is he going to disobey because they aren't glorious enough? Will he simplyt desert and go back to his wife and child?

If he would desert, let him. If nothing else, he may distract some darkspawn on his way.
Unless drinking the Darkspawn blood magically makes you loyal to the grey wardens duncan can not trust anyone unless he gives them at least some reason to trust him.
An explanation would be nice but the future wardens don't get much here. I would be rather tempted to haul ass out of there since i have become a prisoner at some point after meeting duncan. Well, i guess i owe this murderer...

If one assumes that Duncan can just trust the new wardens after they take a sip, like the darkspawn blood makes them really understand how evil the archdemon is and that there's no fleeing from him and this is the only possible way, which is fair enough, they can later "feel" the evil of the dragon encroaching, then duncan should have forced jory's eyes open so to speak.
Again, only if there is no other possible method.
If he just wants to leave he should be free to do so, unless there's something standing in the way like a possible ancient sacred secret i theorized about earlier.
TLR: If the blood doesn't make you loyal, duncan wont be able to trust anyone after killing their new comrade because he was understandably scared of a drink that he just discovered seconds ago can be deadly.
If the blood does make you loyal then force jory to drink and you'll have another grey warden.

 

[AntiChri5]

Military organisations cannot simply let people desert. Because if they did, the moment a battle started going bad the entire fucking army would desert. Deserters used to be hanged or shot, im not sure what the modern punishment is but im damn sure it isn't a slap on the wrist. The only time desertion is justifiable is if in the case of conscription. Bottom line: War is not pleasant.

Drinking the blood doesn't make him loyal, and refusing to do it shows that he never intended to commit to the Wardens. Duncan trusts all his recruits, up to the point where they refuse to commit, refuse to obey orders and draw a weapon on a superior officer because their life may be at risk. At that point, Jory can't be trusted, they can't just lock him up because they are about to have a big battle, and he has dangerous information that nonwardens can't have. Best to just kill the idiot.

So what if the drink is deadly? Risking your life because you were ordered to is a Grey Wardens job. It isn't even an unnecessary risk. Jory was not lied to, he was not coerced, he was not conscripted. He joined of his own free will, and then attempted to back out long past the point where Duncan can let him.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Refusing to drink the tainted blood is a complete and utter rejection of what it means to be a Grey Warden. Even if Duncan forces him to and he survives, will Duncan ever be able to rely on Jory? What other orders is he going to disobey because they aren't glorious enough? Will he simplyt desert and go back to his wife and child?

If he would desert, let him. If nothing else, he may distract some darkspawn on his way.
Unless drinking the Darkspawn blood magically makes you loyal to the grey wardens duncan can not trust anyone unless he gives them at least some reason to trust him.
An explanation would be nice but the future wardens don't get much here. I would be rather tempted to haul ass out of there since i have become a prisoner at some point after meeting duncan. Well, i guess i owe this murderer...

If one assumes that Duncan can just trust the new wardens after they take a sip, like the darkspawn blood makes them really understand how evil the archdemon is and that there's no fleeing from him and this is the only possible way, which is fair enough, they can later "feel" the evil of the dragon encroaching, then duncan should have forced jory's eyes open so to speak.
Again, only if there is no other possible method.
If he just wants to leave he should be free to do so, unless there's something standing in the way like a possible ancient sacred secret i theorized about earlier.
TLR: If the blood doesn't make you loyal, duncan wont be able to trust anyone after killing their new comrade because he was understandably scared of a drink that he just discovered seconds ago can be deadly.
If the blood does make you loyal then force jory to drink and you'll have another grey warden.

Distract some Darkspawn? Or start shouting "The Grey Wardens ARE Darkspawn" loudly to the various soldiers and get every single Grey Warden killed, guaranteeing the ENTIRE world falls under the Blight. It's not evil to kill him, it'd be downright heroic in that scenario.

If Jory wanted to leave his chances were a) when first asked to join the Grey Wardens b) the multiple times he's told it's an incredibly serious commitment after he joins the Grey Wardens or c) Before they start the ritual and he is, again, told there is no backing out from this point.

Much like how you can't stop a military mission after a briefing, leaving the area in hyterics with huge amounts of confidential information in your head about what horrible atrocities will be neccessary for the covert operation you signed up for, Jory was not in any way in the right here (regardless of whether Duncan was a shining paragon of virtue).

 

[white_wolf]

It's part of the grey warden motto you know give me your criminal, your blood thirsty, your tacticians, and your savages all for the blight. Yeah Duncan needed something and you needed something he basically took your law breaking arse and made you do something better then just die. The risk was taken and you got through it then you could do the world a favor by stopping the blight in Awakening you do the samething even to your friends you'll conscript them because you've got no one else left when the the darkspawn descend on you I can only imagine Duncan was in a similar state not enough men and regaurdless of your background you were brave enough under the circumstances and in the right place at the right moment to catch his eye so he decided to go with you the gamble pays off.

We don't get much time with Duncan but I get the impression his heart is in the right place even if the motive he's operating under is a bit skewed he's tasked with finding people for the fight the best he can get a hold of maybe he was a great person once you got to know him we didn't get that time we did see that Alister wasn't bad after knowing him dispite his Templar upbrining sure he got out in time but what if he didn't? Could he still be decent but a mage hunter?

Also I get why they killed that guy its like state secrets notice how no one told you how the joining would go? I'm sure if an average person heard about it they'd cry witch or whatever is worse then a bloodmage about the order and they'd get hunted down by vigilantes despite the fact they're really the only ones able to deal with the blight. The guy was also probably deemed a deserter which in that time period would've been death. If the guy was more rational maybe they would've let him cool off and give him an option of trying again later so he could have time to mentally prepare or allowing him to kill himself but I don't think they would've let the man just walk knowing what he knew.

Duncan is typical of the time he lives in doing what needs to be done for the sake of the order his mindset isn't uncommon and you have much worse versions on the scale of loyalist then him like the guy who created the inquisition he thought he was doing what was right for his order Duncan is more on the lower scale of evil motives. He would be the lighter version and one I think if given a choice of monsters of the era to side with people would pick Duncan's order above others.