Dragon Age II - Final Thoughts (Bioware interview)

[StriderShinryu]

I'm totally shocked that a developer of a game would deign to defend their work against criticism. I mean, everyone knows that it's the real honest and serious fans of previous games in the series that should determine the direction a series takes and not the minds behind it's development. I also think said real honest and serious fans of a series will never ever pay attention to this developer ever again.

.. ahem. Great interview. My only issue with it is that it doesn't include the one real factual complaint about DA2 that both fans and haters of the game bring forward, the apparent rushed nature of the game best demonstrated in the constantly regurgitated environments and dungeon maps. Given the developers candour in the rest of the interview, I would have liked to hear his stance on that topic.

 

[Canadish]

I hate to get personal, as its not relevant to the discussion, but...

I cant help but get the feeling of a greasy used car salesman from Mike Laidlaw. I cant listen to him for more then a minute without getting the creeps.

On topic;
As a new Bioware fan, particularly of Dragon Age Origins, this interview does not make me feel better. The franchise is going away from what it was, and looks to become something I dont want to buy.
Dragon Age 2 was a big let down after Origins. And Bioware has not seemed to notice the problems. Or they're choosing not to acknowledge it.
It wasn't all awful. But there is very little good I have to say about it.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I am impressed with how long you guys can keep the hate train churning without running out of steam, getting bored, and going on to do something not pointless.

This might go on as long as the Oblivion hate train, which still hasn't ended.

Imagine how bad it'll get when Skyrim releases....I'll be in my bunker.

I wasn't around here back when Oblivion was released. Was the hate train really so bad that you'd want a bunker for the Skyrim release?

Also that avatar equals a thumbs up from me given what game it's from.

It was more the rage across the net. And considering the die-hard Morrowind fans on here, it could get ugly. And thanks. I love P4.

 

[Joshica Huracane]

I never really had a problem with not being able to personalise my companions armour. I liked that Isabela or Varric would ALWAYS look the way they did, because that look suited them. Should Bioware have added variations on it? Probably, yes. In my opinion I think they should allow you to use a piece of equipment for its benefits, but still have the look of another piece.

In Dragon Age Origins, I changed sten's armour, simply because they would add to his stats. It was never a cosmetic choice for me.

 

[Canadish]

I agree that he should have admitted that some things needed to be changed but at the same time the game wasn't extremely bad (it was good enough NOT to ruin the entire series, but yes it had it's disappointments here and there.)

I also feel bad for him because the Dragon Age team were actually quite confident that everybody would love the game (really confident) and the vitriol/rudeness on the Bioware forums has pissed them off a lot (and their developers are actually very sensitive lol...)

We needed less of this;

And more variety.

 

[Coldie]

And another thread about DA2 devolves into a flame war. White Knights and Flamers do make for good entertainment, though.

This is more fun than trying to play DA2 a second time, definitely. And that's hilarious sad terrible.

I think there was a ZP quote, about how fans will never be happy no matter what you do, that would fit very well here, but the exact wording eludes me.

It was displayed after each and every video for a long, long time:
"Fans are clingy complaining dipshits who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The sooner you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices the happier you will be for it. Incidentally, why not buy a Zero Punctuation t-shirt?"

And yeah, DA2 team is far too defensive in all their interviews and forum posts. No apologies or even acknowledgments, just "we like it the way it is", occasionally somewhat hostile in delivery. What a disaster of a game release.

 

[Susurrus]

Whoever typed up the interview fails, because Child of Bhaal is spelled like that, not Baal. If it was an emailed interview, and Laidlaw wrote it, he fails.

Also, he doesn't really seem to have listened to criticism. It very much sounds like this is the game he wanted to make, that he enjoys it, and damn everyone else.

 

[postblitz]

Laidlaw's opinions may be dissapointing for some, encouraging for others but there is one thing that stands above all considering people's thoughts on DA2.

Why does everyone act like they own the game, the direction of development and what is right or wrong with it?

In my opinion the game was a step forward concerning many little annoyances the first one had. Sure, some things may appear devolved from my perspective.. but who am I to say its better or worse?

There's this comment on the OP link that struck me:
"whitemute

Posted Apr 4, 2011 9:36 am PT

I'm just so tired of giving my money to these greedy people...."

So ... this guy is complaining that he gives away money -FREELY- to bioware and he dislikes what he's doing? Maybe you shouldn't do it then, you twat! Why do you and everyone else think demos/reviews/previews and dev interviews exist?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TLDR: Do you think Leonardo da vinci working on Mona Lisa (or wtv other masterpiece) cared what some customers that bought his work think?

Make no mistake: games are art! If games would be made mechanically to stardards like cars or other engineering products they would all be dull!

About the aspect of finances I'd reckon if they'd have trouble selling DA2 they will take measures like retcons in comics.

PS: i hate that isabella didn't upgrade her armor(in looks/style) as merril did. Other than that.. i liked the chars iconic gear and i hate mages'shoulderpads being made of feathers and fur.

 

[AVATAR_RAGE]

-Depth simply isn't important. Being able to outfit your party just isn't worth them not looking the way the artist wants them to look. Being able to move the camera so that real tactical combat is possible isn't as important as having nice scenery.

I'd agree with them on this. It's hard to make a character look iconic if they are all wearing the same armor. As the the tactical camera, never really saw the need for it so...

I am on the fence with this, I think if devs are gonna have a set attire for a character in long games such as DA they should have a few alternate versions or different clothes all together, built into the system.

 

[Hiphophippo]

It always amuses me how irate mankind is willing to get when they don't like a product they've purchased.

Don't like DA2? Sorry. Get over it. You haven't been "betrayed" and it wasn't "personal", but judging by some of you people's posts you'd think it was. There are people in this thread that wish the developers physical harm.

Jesus christ, get over yourselves. It's a game. I enjoyed the first DA a fair bit more than the second but every game deserves to be judged on it's own merits. Some of you people need to take a few deep breaths and go play another game.

Why do people expect Bioware to own up to mistakes with the game? I liked the game quite a bit, so why would we assume people who spent a couple years making would feel otherwise?

 

[Susurrus]

Whoever typed up the interview fails, because Child of Bhaal is spelled like that, not Baal. If it was an emailed interview, and Laidlaw wrote it, he fails.

Also, he doesn't really seem to have listened to criticism. It very much sounds like this is the game he wanted to make, that he enjoys it, and damn everyone else.

isnt that his right ?

I mean it's not like the game has "for the greater good of mankind"slapped on its front
Busaco Toblifh indeed captcha

Well, it's potentially not the right attitude if you want to sell games in the future. It suggests a lack of honesty in his ability to view his own product, and is an indication that there probably won't be changes based on the criticism. Sure, he can do it if he wants, but I won't be buying another Bioware product whilst he's lead designer. That's all I can. It's a personal opinion only, clearly, but there it is.

 

[tzimize]

-Depth simply isn't important. Being able to outfit your party just isn't worth them not looking the way the artist wants them to look. Being able to move the camera so that real tactical combat is possible isn't as important as having nice scenery.

I'd agree with them on this. It's hard to make a character look iconic if they are all wearing the same armor. As the the tactical camera, never really saw the need for it so...

Really?

I'd say its a lot more important that they design armor pieces that are not awful looking. With some decent design it would be simple to have for example rogue armor in some color sets and warrior armors in other color sets while wildly varying the look itself. Thus they are relatively easily recognizible and you can still have the joy of finding a new cool armor piece/weapon.

Personally I got to say that the fact that I had less equipping to do in DA2 didnt bother me as much as the fact that the game was simply plain bad.

 

[Irridium]

How did you come up to the conclusion that Bioware is pulling out of the RPG market? I fail to see anything pointing to such a thing. Yes, repetitive dungeons, enemies appearing out of thin air and then blowing up when dead are all bad choices(for me), yet they have nothing to do with the RPG part of the game.

They're stripping out the things that make their games RPGs. Sure, they'll still call them RPGs, but they'll basically be CoD with a dialog wheel. A dialog wheel that has no impact on the plot.

From here I can conclude you havent played DA2 Too the end

Everything in the game ties into the plot

You mean the end where all your choices end up being completely fucking pointless? Where it all gets thrown away so you can fight a mage who turned into a giant monster then a crazy lady with a big sword? Things that happen NO MATTER WHAT choices you make now and made earlier?

 

[postblitz]

How did you come up to the conclusion that Bioware is pulling out of the RPG market? I fail to see anything pointing to such a thing. Yes, repetitive dungeons, enemies appearing out of thin air and then blowing up when dead are all bad choices(for me), yet they have nothing to do with the RPG part of the game.

They're stripping out the things that make their games RPGs. Sure, they'll still call them RPGs, but they'll basically be CoD with a dialog wheel. A dialog wheel that has no impact on the plot.

From here I can conclude you havent played DA2 Too the end

Everything in the game ties into the plot

You mean the end where all your choices end up being completely fucking pointless? Where it all gets thrown away so you can fight a mage who turned into a giant monster then a crazy lady with a big sword? Things that happen NO MATTER WHAT choices you make now and made earlier?

do you really think anybody can make a game where every choice u make can influence the ending?

 

[Irridium]

How did you come up to the conclusion that Bioware is pulling out of the RPG market? I fail to see anything pointing to such a thing. Yes, repetitive dungeons, enemies appearing out of thin air and then blowing up when dead are all bad choices(for me), yet they have nothing to do with the RPG part of the game.

They're stripping out the things that make their games RPGs. Sure, they'll still call them RPGs, but they'll basically be CoD with a dialog wheel. A dialog wheel that has no impact on the plot.

From here I can conclude you havent played DA2 Too the end

Everything in the game ties into the plot

You mean the end where all your choices end up being completely fucking pointless? Where it all gets thrown away so you can fight a mage who turned into a giant monster then a crazy lady with a big sword? Things that happen NO MATTER WHAT choices you make now and made earlier?

do you really think anybody can make a game where every choice u make can influence the ending?

I expected something along the lines of the first 2 fallouts, or New Vegas, or Origins, where at the end there was an "epilogue" scene that showed you the long-term effects of your choices. They don't need to make you see them all, but just say what they did.

 

[AVATAR_RAGE]

-Depth simply isn't important. Being able to outfit your party just isn't worth them not looking the way the artist wants them to look. Being able to move the camera so that real tactical combat is possible isn't as important as having nice scenery.

I'd agree with them on this. It's hard to make a character look iconic if they are all wearing the same armor. As the the tactical camera, never really saw the need for it so...

I am on the fence with this, I think if devs are gonna have a set attire for a character in long games such as DA they should have a few alternate versions or different clothes all together, built into the system.

Or, alternatively, still give people the option to put different armour on their characters? You don't want to? Then leave them as they are. Having the option to customize how your characters look doesn't mean you have to.

You like the fact that Isabella looks like a medieval stripper? Fine, leave her as is. You want her to look a little more respectable? Put some robes on her. No-one's forcing you to ruin your characters 'iconic' look, but the option's there if you personally think they look naff.

For a game company who have previously espoused the virtues of choice, and even slagged off other developers for their lack of choice in games, Bioware are doing a good job of not letting you play with their toys now.

That's why I would like to see more alternate options (even if they have to be unlocked during the game. Honestly I understand that the devs want the characters to look iconic, but they don't have to take away the freedom of customizability from the players. This way they could have the slutty costume for Isablla as well as something less revealing. Win, win really.

 

[Susurrus]

SNIP

Well, er. Yes. Deus Ex.

 

[Irridium]

How did you come up to the conclusion that Bioware is pulling out of the RPG market? I fail to see anything pointing to such a thing. Yes, repetitive dungeons, enemies appearing out of thin air and then blowing up when dead are all bad choices(for me), yet they have nothing to do with the RPG part of the game.

They're stripping out the things that make their games RPGs. Sure, they'll still call them RPGs, but they'll basically be CoD with a dialog wheel. A dialog wheel that has no impact on the plot.

From here I can conclude you havent played DA2 Too the end

Everything in the game ties into the plot

You mean the end where all your choices end up being completely fucking pointless? Where it all gets thrown away so you can fight a mage who turned into a giant monster then a crazy lady with a big sword? Things that happen NO MATTER WHAT choices you make now and made earlier?

I dont mean to be a ***** but I found mages I saved, bloodmages and the like on my way to the end trying to kill me or standing besides me in te room before the final battle
I saved a lyrium addicted ex-templar who was reinstated thanks to me and he was killed in conversation by the knight commander

I could have killed anders when I wanted but I didn't and he brought substantial fighting power tot the field

I chose to take bethany into the deep roads, she died
I could have made contact with a grey wardenapparently to have her fight by my side in the end
or could have left her at home to be taken away

You should fucking play the game again do sidequests and remember who you talk too, character models are not copy paste for example, you just encounter the same people a lot unless you kill em off and they're gone

I did play through the game. Twice and halfway through a third. The final part is still the same apart from a few different characters fighting by your side.

 

[AlternatePFG]

I did play through the game. Twice and halfway through a third. The final part is still the same apart from a few different characters fighting by your side.

And that is why the game is such a disappointment for me. Act 3 plays almost exactly the same, no matter what you do. They made you think that the choices you made earlier in the game would have impact but no, the mages are still suicidal dipshits that fight you even if you are on their side, and you fight the same people no matter what side you take.

 

[Krantos]

Really just a lot of white noise. He never really addressed the controversy at all, seeming to pretend that it was only minor or nonexistent.

The only points that stuck out for me were:

-The ending. He claimed the ending was better because it shows things falling apart. He said this was more interesting than Origins where things "get resolved." ... That's kind of the point of an ending. Things need to get resolved. You can have an ending that leaves room for a sequel and still have a sense of resolution. Having things fall apart at the end isn't an artistic novelty; it's called a cliff-hanger.

-Companions. A couple things here. Firstly, he deflected the complaints that the characters were less engaging by claiming it was a combination of nostalgia and slower character development. I don't buy that. A slower character development should still be just as engaging if not more so. I feel like this point was just a smoke screen. He thought people were wrong, so he dismissed their views.
Second thing about the characters was the outfits. The reasoning for not allowing players the change them was that it gave the developers more of a chance to personalize them. Fair enough, but taken with the earlier complaint (that companions were less engaging) it seems to have failed. They'd be better off looking at other options; preferably ones that don't make players feel like they're getting skimped on options.

-Tactical Camera. I understand that having the tactical camera restricts what they can do with the levels. The problem I have with this, and indeed anything similar (i.e. Character outfits), is this is still a game. Anytime you have to sacrifice gameplay components to add artistic flair, you have to seriously consider whether that's a good idea. If the developers want to create a visual experience unimpeded by gameplay restrictions, they should just make movies. A good designer focuses on gameplay first and structures the visuals around that. Not the other way around.


By and large, I'm just kind of disappointed in the interview. Laidlaw seems to be going to great lengths to deflect and devalue the complaints people have with the game. He never once says "this was a bad idea on our part" about anything. He seems to honestly believe that the game is 100% fine as it is and only requires a little tweaking.

Whenever a developer says something like that, it puts my knickers in a twist. No game has ever been perfect. My favorite interview of all time was one Game Informer did with the designer for Far Cry 2. In it, the guy is completely open and critical of the game, discussing numerous things that didn't work as planned and some that were outright bad ideas. It really impressed me that a developer was willing to be that honest about their game and made me view the game more charitably.

Conversely, anytime a developer gives an interview like Laidlaw did here, it make me more critical. After all, if the developer is unwilling to acknowledge the faults of the game, it's unlikely they'll be addressed in the sequel.