Dragonborn dissapointment

[SajuukKhar]

mind to post some sources?

Sure, if you dont mind waiting for the next 3 years while I dig through half a years worth of BSN forum posts to find the one or two developer posts where they admitted that they did it, that is even if they are still there considering how often Bioware deletes threads in their entirety whenever people start saying ANYTHING bad about them.

 

[Legion]

Although I enjoy Skyrim a lot of the things Bethesda implemented were pretty half assed.

Marriage is pretty much pointless unless you want it for money.
Crafting you cannot make mage items such as robes or staffs.
Dragons are basically fast travel with a little more style.
Werewolves and Vampires could have had so many things added for them, but they are pretty simple.
You can build a house, but in three set locations and with very little choice involved.

The game is enjoyable, but so many things feel more shallow than they could be.

and the extended cut was released from the bottom of biowares heart.....

Difference is that the extended cut was planed, from day 1, to be a payed DLC. Broken Steel wasn't planned.

Source? Pretty sure Bioware would strongly deny that ever being the case. Their PR after the game was over and the backlash ensued was that they'd be making a DLC to please fans. Not that they were already making one.

Not that I'd be surprised if that were the case, but I know for sure Bioware wouldn't be likely to admit it themselves, considering they always try and make themselves look like saints.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Marriage is pretty much pointless unless you want it for money.
Crafting you cannot make mage items such as robes or staffs.
Dragons are basically fast travel with a little more style.
Werewolves and Vampires could have had so many things added for them, but they are pretty simple.
You can build a house, but in three set locations and with very little choice involved.

-Marriage also changes your +10% bonus to skill eveling from sleeping to a +15% bonus to skill leveling from sleeping, but yeah, it's pointless.
-Staff crafting was added in Dragonborn.
-Werewovles got some rings in Dragonborn, similar to the Vampire power booster rings/amulets in Dawnguard.
-except what wings you put on it, and every single item you choose to build, or not build, in the interior.

 

[Legion]

Marriage is pretty much pointless unless you want it for money.
Crafting you cannot make mage items such as robes or staffs.
Dragons are basically fast travel with a little more style.
Werewolves and Vampires could have had so many things added for them, but they are pretty simple.
You can build a house, but in three set locations and with very little choice involved.

-Marriage also changes your +10% bonus to skill eveling from sleeping to a +15% bonus to skill leveling from sleeping, but yeah, it's pointless.
-Staff crafting was added in Dragonborn.
-Werewovles got some rings in Dragonborn, similar to the Vampire power booster rings/amulets in Dawnguard.
-except what wings you put on it, and every single item you choose to build, or not build, in the interior.

The marriage one is not really a point considering that stat boosts are not really the reason for why something like that'd exist.

Good to know staffs can be crafted. Bad to know that it requires extra money.

I do not consider the skill trees for Vampires and Werewolves to be anything interesting. Vampires assumes you want to look like a grotesque, as opposed to getting anything good as a normal vampire. Werewolves basically become stronger. I was talking about things like being hunted by people, only being able to live at night (as a vampire) etc. Things that add more depth to the game, not stats.

You can choose what to have, you cannot decide where it goes. It's not really worth paying money for, unless you hate walking for 10-20 seconds to get to the crafting places in towns.

Like I said, they aren't bad. They are half assed. They could easily have more depth, but they do not.

 

[SajuukKhar]

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As far as I am aware staff crafting is the exact same as normal weapon enchanting. I dont see how it would require any less money then normal weapon crafting.

-If you join the Vampire side in Dawnguard, the Dawnguard frequently sends people to hunt you down, along with writs of execution. Becoming a werewolf involves joining the companions, and the one order that tries to kill werewolves, the silver hand, gets killed by you. Also, If you transform in front of vigilants, they will attack you every time they see you afterwards. Beyond that, no one attacks you because they simply dont know that you are a Vampire or Werewolf, until you transform in front of them, and if you do, you get a sizable bounty on you and most people try to attack you.

People dont send other to hunt you down because, for the most part, it makes no sense that they would KNOW you are a Vampire or a werewolf.

-Vampires have never only been able to live at night.

-You cannot choose where things go because of the navmesh. The Navmesh is the thing that controls were NPCs are able to walk, and the Navmesh cannot dynamically adapt, it has to be pre-created.

You CAN make a house that lets you put things where you want, it was done in Fallout via a mod, but the controls for it are god-awful, and I mean god-awful, an no NPCs could ever use the house, which makes adoption and marriage, and having stewards/housecarls, meaningless.

That's also part of the reason why you cant build houses wherever you want either, the Navmesh needs to be changed to prevent animals from running into the walls of your house because the navmesh hasn't been altered to go around your house. That and land alterations would look funky in some places.

 

[The Heik]

snip

Firstly, dragons fly using magic, not areodynamics, and they can speed up, and slow down, via magic. Also, Horses aren't that slow, horses normally walking speed is equal to your running speed, and their running speed is equal to twice you running speed.

Again, that could be solved by making them fly slower, via magic.
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You fallen into a bit of a logical fallacy there Sajuu. While dragons are considered to be magical creatures, they don't just exude spells like bad BO. They have to focus their magic into Shouts, so if it was true that they used magic to fly then they would need to constantly Shout to remain airborne. Ergo, airborne magical combat would either be impossible or incur a massive risk of crashing into the ground every time the dragon swapped the Flying Shout for a combat Shout.

And even if the flight was done by some inherent magical auras or some such, then it raises a big question: Why do they have wings at all? Sure they look impressive, but wings large and rather unwieldy, even when being used in flight (think of it as the equivalent to fighting with one of those ridiculously long and flowing capes on your back. It'd just get in the way the point of even interrupting everyday actions). So if the wings don't actually need to fill the role that they usually do, then why don't the Dovah look like Chinese dragons?

Spoiler: exhibit A:

Because the standard 4-leg system would be smaller, efficient, and far more practical, to say nothing of the advantages it would offer in combat (see any member of the cat family for examples to that end).

But the Skyrim dragons have wings, so it would stand to reason that they do need them for sustained flight, else why would they put themselves in such an awkward position on the land (where they need to eat, rest and the like) with a body based around aerodynamic flight?

And while we're on the subject of flight, do you remember the final parts of the mission Unbound (the intro mission of Skyrim) where Alduin flies on overhead? It takes him about 10 seconds to crest over Bleak Falls Barrow from being directly over your position. That's ludicrously fast for the Elder Scrolls universe. Comparably, the fastest horse in Skyrim would roughly take several minutes to do the same, and that's in a straight line managing to ignore most of the obstacles that would be in the way. So flying around on a dragon would melt the processors of any electronic device shy of a hell-forged supercomputer from space via sheer weight of data being fed as you transition through one cell every few seconds.

And yes, while you can slow down the dragon's speed to cover for the cell-loading, you suddenly run into the problem of dragon riding becoming a massive time sink for not much reward. Yeah you do get to fight on a dragon, but if you really need the dragon to win the fight then you can hardly wait for the whole summoning process (most likely a la Odahviing flying to you or the whole Durnehviir literally being built next to you) to finish while the supposedly dangerous enemy you're fighting carves you like a Christmas goose. And if you do manage to fend off the enemy for that long, you've likely already killed them yourself, so the whole summoning malarky is rather pointless.

Even in terms of travel, it's going to be overshadowed by the more mundane aspects of the game. Dragon riding would not be an early game feature to have, so unless you played to get the dragon-riding skill alone, then by the time you've unlocked it you'd already have explored a good chunk of the map, so fast travel would simply be the more efficient solution to get where you need to go, and even if you did fly you'd most likely miss out on a lot of the game's secondary content. And if the dragon's speed was slowed to account for cell loading, then I could just Summon Arvak the horse and be well on my way by the time you've just finished summoning your dragon.

It really is a case of [a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomeButImpractical"]Awesome but Impractical[/a]. Yes it's cool, but would you really ever use it more than once or twice?

 

[SajuukKhar]

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Only the thu'um requires that Dragons use shouts, but dragons have other magics beyond the thu'um. Dragon's fly using other magics, Dragons speak in the human speech, despite not having facial structure to support human speech, using magic, and some dragons even practiced necromancy. Dragons are not limited to Thu'um based magics.

As for why the dragons have wings despite using magic to fly, because that is the way their father Akatosh created them. Same reason why they dont reproduce despite that being massively detrimental in keeping their population stable.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:King_Edward,_Part_XII

Moraelyn asked with a smile, "All right then, I've always wanted to know this - considering the shape of your mouth and teeth, how do dragons manage to speak the humanoid languages so clearly?"

Akatosh paused, and then carefully responded, "Why, in much the same way that we can fly, even though our wings are not naturally strong enough to support such heavy torsos."

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Also, many people dont fast travel, its called RPing, something few people seem to do in RPGs anymore.

Dragon riding is fun for people who RP.

 

[-Ezio-]

They really should not have wasted time on dragon riding if it was going to be so insubstantial (although mods will make it better, mark my words).

You know what would have been fun to implement? Spears.

I know they can do it...

Spears are already in the game, in Dragonborn.

not really. the "spears" you get are from rieklings. and you can only use them as arrows. arrows with shitty damage i might add.

 

[Auron]

I'll be disappointed when Bethesda chooses to disappoint me on the PC... But to be fair dragon riding's not something I was looking for, just more story and things to slay.

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

Why do dragons have wings?
Why are there time traveling robots with lightsabers for hands?
Why can the redguards cut atoms with swords?
Why was a king born from a hill that another king had sex with?
Why was the construction kit, loading save games, and pausing time when opening the menus, put into lore?
Why do Dwemer machines work despite....no BECAUSE, they violate the earthbones, the laws of physics?
Simply... because.

Expecting dragons to fly as they would on earth is a terrible argument, Nirn is not earth, and to expect fantasy to equal reality is boring, and thus wrong. There is nothing immersion breaking for those who understand the lore.
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Expecting flying animals to more quicker is a fault of your own. I frankly, and I know many others that share the same opinion, would not care if Dragons moved as slow as a horse. The only reason why dragon flight is "impossible" is because you seem to want to shovel real-world expectation upon a world that is, by even its own lore, impossible and can't exist.
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Dragon flying being half-baked is an opinion, I have seen many on the Elder Scrolls forums who like it exactly the way it is.
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False, in, entirety, do not blame marketing when evidence shows us otherwise. Dragon riding is something the devs considered, and worked on, since the game was first being made.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

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No, j-e-f-f-e-r-s is right, you can't handwave anything you want into existence just because Fantasy. Especially in something like The Elder Scrolls which has paid writers a lot of money to build a consistent and believeable canon of events and possibilities. You can only expand it so far; going from Skyrim containing a race dragons that pretty much look and act exactly like the bog-standard fantasy dragon creature, you cannot make them suddenly fly as slow as a horse when you hop on their backs for no reason other than "Uh, Fantasy!"

There needs to be a certain level of internal consistency here. I am sure some people don't care, you seem to be one of them, but it is not a good idea to throw logic out of the window when you're trying to sell 5 million copies of a video game. It would sure bug the crap out of me.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Honestly, dragon riding was the last thing I cared about from the trailer so when it was revealed that it's a pretty restricted mechanic, I didn't care at all. I'm way more interested in Apocrypha and Solstheim.

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

Internal constancy does exist, but being internally consistent with the elder scrolls is being internally consistent with a world that, by its definition, changes based on mortal belief about what happens in it.

All versions of the gods exist, and are the same god, no matter the level of contradiction in description, simply because mortal believe they do. Akatosh, Alkosh, Auriel, Auri-El, are all THE dragon-god of time, but are all their own separate beings, while at the same time all being the same dragon-god. Akatosh can plan against Alkosh, who can plan against Auri-el, and in the end, he is just planning against himself, that is not himself.

Like a gem with many facets, each one a different size, and shape, but all the same gem none the less.

As for why dragons dont keep their wings folded up at all times, despite their wings not being necessary for flight, why do humans not keep their arms perfectly straight while running, despite arms not being essential to running?
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Not really, Dragons are able to whip giants asses simply by landing and attacking them from one spot. Not to mention that higher level dragons, such as Ancient, Revered, and Legendary Dragons, are able to take out packs of 8 bandits simply by landing and using their breath attacks.

Not to mention the fact that the technical limitations of the engine can easily be solved with, as I mentioned before, making dragons move only as fast as horses.
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Except, it isn't poor design if it is working as they intended.
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Actually, dragon riding was kept out mostly due to time constraints, much of the game-jam video is stuff they had started working on for the base game, but didn't get to finished because of 11/11/11.
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Well considering I have not made an argument that ignores the engine limitations, and indeed I suggested that bringing Dragons in line with horses, which do fit the engine limitations, I dont see why you would think I would say system requirements are a myth.

 

[SajuukKhar]

ah, classic.

the "evidence" that just happened to be destroyed in a "fire"..

If you actually read what i said, I said it MIGHT have been deleted, I never said it was. If you cant actually make a response about what I actually said, then dont bother responding at all.

snip

Ive actually tried it before, I can run pretty much just as fast as I can with my arms moving, then I can with them perfectly straight.

Their wings are not visibly used to fly, they are visibly used during flight, but nothing ever stated that dragons NEED their wings to fly.

Not to mention the fact that some dragons, like Durnehviir in Dawnguard, have MASSIVE holes in their wings, and are still able to fly, despite the fact that the holes should, if dragons flew via their wings, prevent him from flying, and then there are the skeletal dragons, which move, despite having ZERO muscle, or tissue, which would also be impossible if Dragons moved via anything but magic. You can actually see the Dragons, that Alduin raise, get out of thier holes, and start walking around, before their flesh comes back.

Hell, you can go to dragons that are still in their mounds, cast a shout at the mound, and get the dragons to respond back to you, despite being nothing but bones, and having no vocal cords to be able to talk.
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Then you must be a very low level then, I have never seen anything beyond the lowest 2-3 level types of dragons die to bandit, or giants.
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People who RP in RPGs would, for RP sake, and frankly, getting to look at the beautiful scenery of Skyrim at that height, would be great, the slowness would give me time to take it in.
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Considering my Shadowmere can climb High Hrothgar steep slopes, the terrain has never been a limiting factin on any sort of angle besides a perfect 90 degree angel, which are rare. Horses, as is, can go pretty much anywhere, in any direction, unless impeded by a staggeringly vertical cliff face.

The amount of simultaneous points they can travel to in a certain amount of time, is only slightly less then that of dragons.

 

[The Heik]

snip

Only the thu'um requires that Dragons use shouts, but dragons have other magics beyond the thu'um. Dragon's fly using other magics, Dragons speak in the human speech, despite not having facial structure to support human speech, using magic, and some dragons even practiced necromancy. Dragons are not limited to Thu'um based magics.

Yes they are, or rather, they'd never NEED to use any other form of magic. Thu'um is a magic where any combination of words can form an immensely powerful spell. It is literally will made reality, and it completely outclasses any form of terrestrial magic by several orders of magnitude.

Let me mention just a few of the Shouts that exist in the world:

-A shout that can bend time
-A shout that can summon a meteoric storm onto the landscape
-A shout that can blast back the atmosphere of the planet
-A shout that can bend the will of creatures, dragons and even the earth itself to do the user's bidding
-A shout that can summon dragons and dead heroes from the very Ether
-A shout that can force the concept of mortality to immortal beings

And all for effectively no cost to the user (considering how prolifically it is used by both the Dovah and the Greybeards), versus standard magic spells that drain magicka, a fairly finite resource that can be easily drained by the casting of just a few spells (although it does replenish slowly). The only reason why Thu'um isn't completely overpowered in the game is because otherwise the old magic system would be rendered completely obsolete by it, which would break the game. That's why the cool-downs for the shouts exist and why they are nowhere near as powerful as they should be (I mean come on, is a random fireball thrown by a dinky mage really going to do more damage that a meteor screaming down from the heavens? Not bloody likely).

Also, I feel the need to mention that Durnehviir, the only dragon in current lore that practiced necromancy, still used Shouts as the means to cast those spells (specifically RII VAAZ ZOL or "Soul Tear"), so even Necromancy is still covered under the Thu'um purview

As for why the dragons have wings despite using magic to fly, because that is the way their father Akatosh created them. Same reason why they dont reproduce despite that being massively detrimental in keeping their population stable.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:King_Edward,_Part_XII

Moraelyn asked with a smile, "All right then, I've always wanted to know this - considering the shape of your mouth and teeth, how do dragons manage to speak the humanoid languages so clearly?"

Akatosh paused, and then carefully responded, "Why, in much the same way that we can fly, even though our wings are not naturally strong enough to support such heavy torsos."

Ok, little bit of advice. You don't want to use 15 year old game documents to justify why things happen in the latest edition of a series as long and constantly changing as Elder Scrolls. For instance, any lore prior to Skyrim doesn't mention a single thing about the Thu'um, yet that is not only the preferred method of combat for dragons in Skyrim, but the only non-physical attack that they use at all and is now a fairly significant part of Tamriel's history (both draconic and terrestrial, though skyrim in particular has most of that focus). It was quite literally shoe-horned in by the writers to add a new feature to the game (even though in truth it worked itself in quite smoothly)

Besides, just because that lore exists doesn't mean it matches the real world experiences. In Skyrim's gameplay if the dragon's flew via magic they'd rocket into the sky and zoom around like superman, hovering damn near perfectly exactly where they want to be or go. But that doesn't happen. They flap their wings to launch and hover in place, bobbing up and down with each wingbeat, and have to bank and angle themselves like real life. More importantly, when they're wounded enough they crash to the ground and can't fly again, yet they can still use Shouts (ie magic), supporting the case that their flight is at very least mostly dependent (read: 50% or more) on their wings to fly, else they could just fly up again with little difficulty. As much as old lore might say otherwise, in cases like these the scientific principle of "show don't tell" trumps any textual data.

Also, many people dont fast travel, its called RPing, something few people seem to do in RPGs anymore.

Dragon riding is fun for people who RP.

Yes, but they are a minority compared to the people who use fast travel. Also, you need to realize that RPing is the act of putting constraints on your playstyle in order to create a semblance of personal narrative. That can often mean that people will overlook far more practical or convenient methods to get the job done. And that's the ultimate problem with dragon riding in Skyrim. Yes it would be cool, yes it may work well for certain RP situations, but it is not the go-to method for getting around or fighting because it is so clunky. It's a niche thing, and it's not going to be the main reason why people are playing the game.

 

[SajuukKhar]

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There is no information regarding that there is a shout for every single conceivable power, in fact, lore suggests that many forms of magic cannot be recreated in other forms of magic. Things like shadow magic, tower magic, the Aldmeri's dawn magic, and the magic of the Elder Scrolls themselves, to name a few. The Thu'um, while powerful, does not do everything.

Not to mention the fact that not any 3 word combination does something. Parthunaax, Alduin, and Odahviing, say dragon word sentences that 3+ words long, without anything happening after three words.

Also, Durnehviir's soul tear shout is not a necomantic power.
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And yet, the book King Edward specifically states things like

The two dragons wheeled through the sky, spouting great gouts of flame against the purpling sky.

"They're fighting," Edward cried, "what does it mean. Who is Ma-Tylda?"

"I don't know who she is, son," Moraelyn replied, "but they do not fight. You behold a dragon greeting ceremony."

Which is the exact same thing Parthunnax asks you to do when you first meet him, and he specifically tells you that it is normal Dragon greeting procedure. King Edward, and Skyrim, are consistent to a ridiculous degree, given that King Edward hasn't appeared in a game for nearly 15 years. Bethesda does not just ignore old lore.

and the Thu'um has been around since Redguard came out, which was in 1998, 2 years after Daggerfall, and 4 years before Morrowind. Even the entire story of Jurgen Windcaller, the founder of the Greybeards, has been in the game's lore since 1998. To say it was made up for Skyrim is 100% BS, and only shows a lack of knowledge of ES lore. Spoilered due to LOTS of links

Spoiler

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition - A paper bound booklet included with the game Redguard
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Loreocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Loreocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Skyrim

"The Tongues"

The Nords have long practiced a spiritual form of magic known as "The Way of the Voice", based largely on their veneration of the Wind as the personification of Kynareth. Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky, and the breath and the voice of a Nord is his vital essence. Through the use of the Voice, the vital power of a Nord can be articulated into a thu'um, or shout. Shouts can be used to sharpen blades or to strike enemies at a distance. Masters of the Voice are known as Tongues, and their power is legendary. They can call to specific people over hundreds of miles, and can move by casting a shout, appearing where it lands. The most powerful Tongues cannot speak without causing destruction. They must go gagged, and communicate through a sign language and through scribing runes.

In the days of the Conquest of Morrowind and the founding of the First Empire, the great Nord war chiefs - Derek the Tall, Jorg Helmbolg, Hoag Merkiller - were all Tongues. When they attacked a city, they needed no siege engines; the Tongues would form up in a wedge in front of the gatehouse, and draw in breath. When the leader let it out in a thu'um, the doors were blown in, and the axemen rushed into the city. Such were the men that forged the First Empire. But, alas for the Nords, one of the mightiest of all the Tongues, Jurgen Windcaller (or The Calm, as he is better known today), became converted to a pacifist creed that denounced use of the Voice for martial exploits. His philosophy prevailed, largely due to his unshakable mastery of the Voice -- his victory was sealed in a legendary confrontation, where The Calm is said to have "swallowed the Shouts" of seventeen Tongues of the militant school for three days until his opponents all lay exhausted (and then became his disciples). Today, the most ancient and powerful of the Tongues live secluded on the highest peaks in contemplation, and have spoken once only in living memory, to announce the destiny of the young Tiber Septim (as recounted in Cyrodiil). In gratitude, the Emperor has recently endowed a new Imperial College of the Voice in Markarth, dedicated to returning the Way of the Voice to the ancient and honorable art of war. So it may be that the mighty deeds of the Nord heroes of old will soon be equaled or surpassed on the battlefields of the present day.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Children_of_the_Sky

The power of a Nord can be articulated into a shout, like the kiai of an Akaviri swordsman. The strongest of their warriors are called "Tongues." When the Nords attack a city, they take no siege engines or cavalry; the Tongues form in a wedge in front of the gatehouse, and draw in breath.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Varieties_of_Faith...

Kyne (Kiss At the End): Nordic Goddess of the Storm. Widow of Shor and favored god of warriors. She is often called the Mother of Men. Her daughters taught the first Nords the use of the thu'um, or Storm Voice.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Five_Songs_of_King_Wulfharth

The first song of King Wulfharth is ancient, circa 1E500. After the defeat of the Alessian army at Glenumbria Moors, where King Hoag Merkiller was slain, Wulfharth of Atmora was elected by the Pact of Chieftains. His thu'um was so powerful that he could not verbally swear into the office, and scribes were used to draw up his oaths.

As Boy Wulfharth watched the battle in the sky he learned a new thu'um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So. He used this new magic to change his people back to normal.

The Tongues sung Shor's ghost into the world again.

Wulfharth met Sul but could not strike him, and he fell from grievous wounds, but not before shouting Sul blind.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Arcturian_Heresy

That night a storm came and visited Hjalti's camp. It spoke with him in his tent. At dawn, Hjalti went up to the gates, and the storm followed just above his head. Arrows could not penetrate the winds around him. He shouted down the walls of Old Hrol'dan, and his men poured in. After their victory, the Nords called Hjalti Talos, or Stormcrown.

That dragons only use the Thu'um in-game does not mean they dont use other magics in lore, you cannot take what is shown in the game at face value for the simple fact that it is a game, and thus limited. Books are ALWAYS more true then the game when it comes to lore.

Furthermore, magic flight obviously has limitations, as does all forms of magic, even the Thu'um, your "superman" statement ignores them.

As for their lack of ability to fly when you damage them enough, and considering that their wings are undamaged, it's out of exhaustion that they cannot fly, not due to needing wings.
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So?
-The number of people who use carriages for RP reasons is low and yet they still put carriages in.
-The number of people who use food in RP is low, yet Bethesda still put in the ability to make food.
-Few people would ever use the marriage system, besides RP, and they still put it in.
having a little audience for a feature means nothing, as Bethesda put in many that exist solely for RP.

 

[The Heik]

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There is no information regarding that there is a shout for every single conceivable power, in fact, lore suggests that many forms of magic cannot be recreated in other forms of magic. Things like shadow magic, tower magic, the Aldmeri's dawn magic, and the magic of the Elder Scrolls themselves, to name a few. The Thu'um, while powerful, does not do everything.

Not to mention the fact that not any 3 word combination does something. Parthunaax, Alduin, and Odahviing, say dragon word sentences that 3+ words long, without anything happening after three words.

Evidently you don't know the difference between Dovah language and Thu'um. Thu'um is when the individual projects their power into the dovah language to create a powerful spell. Just speaking the dovah language won't make shouts happen.

As for the other magics, there isn't really any evidence one way or the other as to if a Shout can recreate similar effects for the ones you've mentioned. However, just because one specific type doesn't do something the exact same way doesn't mean that it won't get the same end result. for example, there is a spell in the illusion magic school that allows you to detect the life force of an individual from a distance. The "Aura Whisper" Shout does the exact same thing. Different sources, same result.

Also, Durnehviir's soul tear shout is not a necomantic power.

Then would you please let me know what you call a supernatural ability that kills an individual, rips their soul out, then uses their now dead corpse as a thrall?

Because anyone else would call that necromancy

And yet, the book King Edward specifically states things like

The two dragons wheeled through the sky, spouting great gouts of flame against the purpling sky.

"They're fighting," Edward cried, "what does it mean. Who is Ma-Tylda?"

"I don't know who she is, son," Moraelyn replied, "but they do not fight. You behold a dragon greeting ceremony."

Which is the exact same thing Parthunnax asks you to do when you first meet him, and he specifically tells you that it is normal Dragon greeting procedure. King Edward, and Skyrim, are consistent to a ridiculous degree, given that King Edward hasn't appeared in a game for nearly 15 years. Bethesda does not just ignore old lore.

And yet there was not a single shout between the two dragons. All they did was spit fire at each other. Fun fact: a lot of animals in the real world do a bit of a ceremony akin to what the dragons are doing (minus spitting fire of course) as an introduction to each other.

You inferring that this is the two dragons shouting at each other, but that's only with the knowledge that comes from Skyrim, which was the introduction of shouts having originally been the purview of Dovah. But this little excerpt just says that two dragons are fighting as part of a greeting ceremony. True it does occur in Skyrim to link the concepts together, but at the time of the excerpt's writing they didn't even have the Thu'um as part of their lore. it's new, and it changes the dynamic of the Shouts.

That dragons only use the Thu'um in-game does not mean they dont use other magics in lore, you cannot take what is shown in the game at face value for the simple fact that it is a game, and thus limited. Books are ALWAYS more true then the game when it comes to lore.

And secondary content does not trump primary content when it comes to how a world informs us of how it works. You can crow on about how "the lore says this" but until it is actually given a physical presesence as an event then it might as well be a fairy tale for how much it actually impacts the game world, which is the be all and end all of how something holds up in canon.

Furthermore, magic flight obviously has limitations, as does all forms of magic, even the Thu'um, your "superman" statement ignores them.

and yet these dragons have the ability to warp time and space with their inherent magical abilities. Seems rather arbitrary for them not to be able to lift their bodies consistently when they can make heaven into their fire-spewing ***** with a few well placed "words". Second, if Akatosh (read: A GOD) decided to give the Dovah these flier-type bodies, then why didn't he give them enough power for smooth sustained flight while he was crafting them an immense and unique physical form and packing it full firepower (both supernatural and physical) up to the task of dominating entire cities on their own. Seems very douchy of him to do that to his chosen children

As for their lack of ability to fly when you damage them enough, and considering that their wings are undamaged, it's out of exhaustion that they cannot fly, not due to needing wings.

And yet they can still fight with the same power and sling Shouts like a Greybeard on a caffeine drip.

Yeah, I'm not buying that explanation one bit. If they can still fight at full ground capacity, they can summon enough energy to aerially bug out, which is definitely the preferred option when compared to "death and the consumption of one's soul".

So?
-The number of people who use carriages for RP reasons is low and yet they still put carriages in.
-The number of people who use food in RP is low, yet Bethesda still put in the ability to make food.
-Few people would ever use the marriage system, besides RP, and they still put it in.
having a little audience for a feature means nothing, as Bethesda put in many that exist solely for RP.

And just because something is put into a game for roleplaying purposes doesn't mean it's any good, which the dragonriding most certainly is not.

 

[Jynthor]

I just assumed dragons use some kind of levitate spell to fly and use their wings to make turns/adjust height and momentum etc. Most people seem to assume it's either 100% magic or 100% wings, I don't see why it can't be both.

Of course in the end it all comes down to the rule of cool.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I just assumed dragons use some kind of levitate spell to fly and use their wings to make turns/adjust height and momentum etc. Most people seem to assume it's either 100% magic or 100% wings, I don't see why it can't be both.

Admittedly, this is the most likely answer.

snip

Apparently you dont know that there is no difference between the dragon language, and shouting, for dragons.

Eye, but until we see a shout that does those things specifically, we can't assume they exist, and thus, there is still plenty of things dragons need other magics for, because there is no known shout that can do the same thing.

The difference between soul tear, and necromancy, is the same as the illusion magic/aura whisper comparison you made before. Aura whisper can do something similar to illusion magic, but it is not illusion magic itself. The source of real necromancy is different then that of the soul tear shout, different magics, similar results.

I understand that the Thu'um wasn't around during Daggerfall, and that the two dragons spitting fire at each other wasn't them using a shout, at least when the book was originally conceived. The point I was trying to make is that, even with the addition of the Thu'um, the traits of the dragons in the book, having fire-breathing bouts when they meet, are still canon even thought its been 15 years since the book was in the game, and thus, the other traits mentioned in the book, such as using magic to fly, and to speak human speech, are also likely to be true as well.

And there is nothing in the games that doesn't prove that dragon's use magic to fly, and given that the aerodynamic you seem so hellbent on forcing into the game would prevent Dragons from being able to fly, as their wings would NOT be able to generate enough lift to lift their bodies, so some magic must be at work.

Akatosh is batshit insane, literally. He has been killed at least 4 times, has had his body ripped apart by the beliefs of mortals forming various other hims, and his sheer presence drives his avatars, such as Pelinal, crazy. Akatosh also gave Mankar Camreon, the badguy of Oblivion, the power of the Dragonborn, because he wanted The Empire to die, while at the same time, had Martin Septm, another dragonborn, try to save it. Akatosh is known to be crazy, and a douche that keeps a harem of ALL the female dragons all to himself.

Dragons loose the ability to shout when their magicka is drained, which is it by shouting, and which it normally is by the time you ground them. I think it is true that using shouts can tire a dragon out, especially if he has had 500 arrows thrown into his body.

I am perfectly fine with dragon riding as it is, as are many people, so your assumption that it isn't fine, is opinion only, and not objective fact.

 

[Murmillos]

god damn.. out of popcorn again..

Honestly, the dragon riding being lack luster was solely due to the limitations of the 360 hardware. Honestly, quit trying to make up nonsense and 'redonkulous' lore reasons for why it sucks, and just say hey.. you know what.. the 360 hardware sucks, the game engine sucks; thus, dragon riding sucks. No lore reasons, no mystical magic crap reasons. Our beloved 360 and the Skyrim software sucks.

Its still a bloody great hardware system and I still play nearly all of my games on it, but in reality, for what "real" dragon riding needed to have, it sucks.


Tho, on the other side of THIS argument, dragons are probably half magic / half real flying. They can probably lighten their weight a bit with some magic, but still need to fly (or have the built in urge to fly) to fly, in which we see in game.