Dragon's Crown Designer Apologizes for Exaggerated Characters

[Scott Rothman]

Jesus christ this thread is infuriating to read. It started out well, but derailed so quickly just like they always do.

Everyone just go watch Jim Sterling's latest video. He is 100% correct in everything he says ever.

 

[Darken12]

Well, I'm glad he apologised for the disgusting homophobic joke, at least.

Also, he didn't apologise for the designs. He explained how he got to them and then apologised if YOU didn't see what he originally saw. He's not admitting that there was anything wrong with what he did whatsoever (though I'm not surprised by that), except, perhaps, that he should have tried harder to bring forth that "light-hearted fantasy tone" he talks about.

Either way, it's progress, I guess.

 

[chinangel]

I've played vanillaware games before so I kinda know what i'm getting into...but even I kinda find some of these character designs hard to defend.

 

[EstrogenicMuscle]

Eh, apologizing is pretty common in Japanese culture anyway from all I have been told who are experts on the subject. Or at least self proclaimed experts. I'd rather him think about the art direction and the possible meaning it has for others rather that be "sorry".

Also, this isn't an "Oh my God I'm so sorry I feel terrible" response. So I'm not to worried about his feelings.

Dungeons & Dragons and the work of J.R.R. Tolkien
Eh, a lot more Dungeons & Dragons than J.R.R. Tolkien. Also The Elder Scrolls: Arena did this sort of junk in their games. And it was pretty obnoxious there, too.

People keep defending art choices like this as "hey it isn't sexist because the guys are so muscular". Not the same, those dudes aren't there to look sexy to women at all. They're chiseled to look "manly" and capable. Having a figure like that would make you a hard as iron warrior. And the design is like that for players who want to feel like a hard as iron warrior. That Sorceress class, on the other hand, would have trouble even walking with breasts that large.

Also, for those saying people only complain about females with proportions like that, this is a problem, too. The fact that so many dudes in video games are these hard-boiled macho stereotypes with gigantic muscles is possibly as stupid as the fact that so many female video game characters are Ms. Fanservice with too large of breasts to even carry. Just for radically different reasons.

Radically different reasons for why people say "but but men are stereotypically formed for sex appeal too!" think. The problem with the male characters is how they force an unhealthy image of masculinity which is obsessed with hyper-empowered, dominance. The idea of this gigantic man with gigantic muscles and a huge beard falls right into the idea of many men thinking manliness is an achievement and the top of the human totem poll. And very much reinforces sexism just like these ridiculously buxom women. Just not in the way many defensive men would like to admit to.

 

[DanDanikov]

I'm going to straddle the fence on this one.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the image/character as designed, but rather the context in which it is used. Was it a deliberate attempt to promote a sexist or homophobic agenda? Highly dubious. Is there subconscious or cultural sexism/homophobia occurring here? Possibly, but the guy eventually apologised when it was pointed out and hopefully learned to be more considerate of that perspective.

Such things are somewhat subjective and, even in the case of actual sexism and homophobia in any art or media, that doesn't always equate to condoning (else that would be propaganda). An artist's sexism may be reflected in their art, but you cannot assume they are sexist because their art suggests it.

 

[Headsprouter]

Funny, in the world of Dragon's Crown, the Sorceress might be petite considering the elf's legs and the Amazon's...saggy muscles.

The early adolescent character design makes the whole game a bit of a turn off. His apology doesn't really justify it when you go ahead and stick a staff between her butt cheeks and press a skull to her boobs. It's not even like "this is my art style" it's "This is for SEX APPEAL!!!", the guys are exaggerated, too, but they aren't in particularly sexualised poses.

I'm not saying I like realism, either, it just..all seems a bit shallow. The enemy design is boss, though.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Eh, apologizing is pretty common in Japanese culture anyway from all I have been told who are experts on the subject. Or at least self proclaimed experts. I'd rather him think about the art direction and the possible meaning it has for others rather that be "sorry".

Also, this isn't an "Oh my God I'm so sorry I feel terrible" response. So I'm not to worried about his feelings.

Dungeons & Dragons and the work of J.R.R. Tolkien
Eh, a lot more Dungeons & Dragons than J.R.R. Tolkien. Also The Elder Scrolls: Arena did this sort of junk in their games. And it was pretty obnoxious there, too.

People keep defending art choices like this as "hey it isn't sexist because the guys are so muscular". Not the same, those dudes aren't there to look sexy to women at all. They're chiseled to look "manly" and capable. Having a figure like that would make you a hard as iron warrior. And the design is like that for players who want to feel like a hard as iron warrior. That Sorceress class, on the other hand, would have trouble even walking with breasts that large.

Also, for those saying people only complain about females with proportions like that, this is a problem, too. The fact that so many dudes in video games are these hard-boiled macho stereotypes with gigantic muscles is possibly as stupid as the fact that so many female video game characters are Ms. Fanservice with too large of breasts to even carry. Just for radically different reasons.

Radically different reasons for why people say "but but men are stereotypically formed for sex appeal too!" think. The problem with the male characters is how they force an unhealthy image of masculinity which is obsessed with hyper-empowered, dominance. The idea of this gigantic man with gigantic muscles and a huge beard falls right into the idea of many men thinking manliness is an achievement and the top of the human totem poll. And very much reinforces sexism just like these ridiculously buxom women. Just not in the way many defensive men would like to admit to.

arent you stretching that logic just a bit? the amazon looks alot like the dwarf and is not sexy conventionally.

 

[Atmos Duality]

He doesn't need to apologize. It's his style.
I'm not fond of it, but I respect his right to create it.

 

[deadish]

He doesn't need to apologize. It's his style.
I'm not fond of it, but I respect his right to create it.

I second this.

It's his art, he can draw whatever he wants.

Whether you like it or not, that's your problem.

PS: Anyone find it a tad ironic (or perhaps hypocritical would be a better word ) that if a female game character has big boobs it's stereotyping, insulting, so on and so forth. However it's perfectly fine if a male game character has stupidly huge muscles - and no one defends more realistically proportion males designs when they are deemed "gay" by those insecure about their masculinity.

 

[Abomination]

He doesn't need to apologize. It's his style.
I'm not fond of it, but I respect his right to create it.

I second this.

It's his art, he can draw whatever he wants.

Whether you like it or not, that's your problem.

PS: Anyone find it a tad ironic (or perhaps hypocritical would be a better word ) that if a female game character has big boobs it's stereotyping, insulting, so on and so forth. However it's perfectly fine if a male game character has stupidly huge muscles - and no one defends more realistically proportion males designs when they are deemed "gay" by those insecure about their masculinity.

It is ironic and very hypocritical. The argument used to justify the stance is due to the 'frequency' of females being depicted with unpractical revealing attire... which I find holds as much water as a sieve.

The only thing he had to apologize for was his initial rebuttal accusing his detractor of being homosexual, alluding that homosexuality is a negative thing. That being said I can understand his frustration when someone attacks you for a disproportionate art-style that draws ALL genders as disproportionate as somehow being sexist. Do all men look like the fighter and the dwarf? No. Then why do you think the artist believes that all women look like the sorceress and the amazon?

 

[aba1]

You can shout 'STYLIZED' as loud as you like but it does nothing to address the real issue, that the men are designed to look powerful while the women are designed to be wanked over. I'd probably give this game a pass on the basis that all those images (with the exception of the sorceress) look too grotesque to be titillating for anyone, but I've heard the same bullshit used to defend too much actual sexism and the designer guy is acting like a child besides so I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe the men aren't stylized to look powerful they are stylized to look masculine just as the females are designed to look feminine.

 

[aba1]

He doesn't need to apologize. It's his style.
I'm not fond of it, but I respect his right to create it.

I wish more people thought like you. This whole issue bothers me as a artist cause it implies that artists shouldn't be allowed to create things and shouldn't have the freedom to do things as they please. I get if you don't care for the style but don't sit there and act like they are bad or hurting people for doing it.

 

[aba1]

Radically different reasons for why people say "but but men are stereotypically formed for sex appeal too!" think. The problem with the male characters is how they force an unhealthy image of masculinity which is obsessed with hyper-empowered, dominance. The idea of this gigantic man with gigantic muscles and a huge beard falls right into the idea of many men thinking manliness is an achievement and the top of the human totem poll. And very much reinforces sexism just like these ridiculously buxom women. Just not in the way many defensive men would like to admit to.

You are right I mean we shouldn't allow people to show unhealthy images because they force people to be like that. We should get rid of all shooting games fighting games and anything that isn't hyper realism because it sets a false standard people feel forced to live by. If people play spiderman games it is really awful because it sets a unhealthy idea of human capabilities and it might force people to try and jump off building to their deaths. We can't allow artists to show this sorta nonsense ever again!

 

[JazzJack2]

Well, I'm glad he apologised for the disgusting homophobic joke, at least.

There wasn't anything homophobic about his joke

 

[Atmos Duality]

I wish more people thought like you. This whole issue bothers me as a artist cause it implies that artists shouldn't be allowed to create things and shouldn't have the freedom to do things as they please. I get if you don't care for the style but don't sit there and act like they are bad or hurting people for doing it.

Well, since "frequency" the primary complaint, there are two ways to address the problem.
(Where Frequency is defined as a proportion of [Desired : Undesired])

1) Increase amount of non-exploitative female characters in design. (any design; primarily visually, since video gaming is primarily visual, but in behavior as well)

Problems: The largest producers in the market are obsessed with marketability, which creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Their metrics and focus testing says gaming is a sausage-fest, so they will design for a sausage fest.
We need talent who can work outside of those constraints and take risks.

Increasing exploitative male character designs probably won't work so well given the current market conditions; it's be an interesting gambit given the current socio-political climate in the West.

2) Decrease amount of exploitative female design.
Problems: This route leads into Political Correctness: "You can't [say/draw/do] that! It might offend someone!"
We really don't need gaming diving any deeper into Hayes-Code territory.

*) Moving away from exploitation in general would reduce that "fear" of creating non-exploitative characters (especially female), and increase incentive to broaden the subject matter. But pitching this to a profit-driven entertainment industry is difficult at best (nearly impossible in all other media; mainstream music and film thrives on exploitation).

 

[Darken12]

Well, I'm glad he apologised for the disgusting homophobic joke, at least.

There wasn't anything homophobic about his joke

The fact that it was a joke was homophobic. "You don't like big tits? You must be gay! Here, have some burly, older, bearded, naked men! HAR HAR HAR! IT'S HILARIOUS! HAR HAR HAR HAR!"

I fail to see what's so funny about a bunch of men being found sexually attractive by other men. I, for one, cannot think of a non-homophobic source of humour for that joke.

 

[JazzJack2]

Well, I'm glad he apologised for the disgusting homophobic joke, at least.

There wasn't anything homophobic about his joke

The fact that it was a joke was homophobic. "You don't like big tits? You must be gay! Here, have some burly, older, bearded, naked men! HAR HAR HAR! IT'S HILARIOUS! HAR HAR HAR HAR!"

I fail to see what's so funny about a bunch of men being found sexually attractive by other men. I, for one, cannot think of a non-homophobic source of humour for that joke.

I am gay and I didn't find his joke offensive at all, using sexuality as a feature for a joke isn't inherently offensive.

 

[Darken12]

I am gay and I didn't find his joke offensive at all, using sexuality as a feature for a joke isn't inherently offensive.

Well, I'm gay(ish) too and I did find it inherently offensive. Intention matters a great deal. The dude's intention wasn't to gently poke fun at the gay community in a lighthearted, amicable way. His intent was to use the trite-old "What are you, GAY?" as a rhetoric to silence criticism and mock his critics into silence.

 

[JazzJack2]

His intent was to use the trite-old "What are you, GAY?" as a rhetoric to silence criticism and mock his critics into silence.

Meh I felt he was simply telling people to fuck off in less rude, lightly humorous manner, but still I don't see homophobia with either interpretation.

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

I can see where he's going with saying that it harkens back to the old D&D days; the Amazon looks like something that was spray painted on the side of an old 80's panel van. The Sorceress though looks like a teen, boy masturbatory fantasy. If the artist wanted to go for exaggerated proportions then fine, but having her tits virtually spilling out just pushes it to the realm of tacky. It's a pity because the actual game looks like an artistic, modern reboot of the old Capcom D&D side scrollers which I loved.