Well seing a person with imitation in their name make angry comments about how evil corporations are made me chortle. ^^Imitation Saccharin post=7.72435.761770 said:How does pretend pretend sugar juxtapose ironically with my comment?sammyfreak post=7.72435.761595 said:Your name adds a sweet and palpable layer of irony to this comment.
DRM Be Damned, Spore Is A Hit
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
I guess the honest truth, from my perspective, is that I find that a lot of people who are expressing rage over the DRM are just jumping on the bandwagon because they're told they should be pissed off.
I don't necessarily include anyone on this thread in it - but to me, it's like Windows Vista... or anything else that people hate without having any personal experience of it.
Quite frankly, I enjoy Spore, despite the fact I'm aware of the DRM, despite being a pretty serious, long-time gamer who realizes that there's not that much meat to the game. Why do I like it?
Because I find it fun.
You know, there wasn't that much meaty gameplay to things like Sim City or Bubble Bobble or PacMan or THOUSANDS of other "classics" that we all love. We accepted it back then. We enjoyed games because they were fun, not because they were packed with a million-billion features.
Why do we act differently today? Are people more creative today? Or have we just replaced fun with complexity in our minds?
I really think Spore is great. Complicated? Absolutely not. Bursting with new content waiting to be discovered? No. But it has an incredible innate sense of fun, cuteness, and adorable humour. I can play this game with my girlfriend (who is also a gamer), watch her enjoying it and share her creations - and share mine with her. I can log on and look at the latest things my friend's kids have made, or my niece, or just other people I interact with who play it.
So, if you've played it and don't like it, or have a genuine personal objection to it, that's absolutely fine by me - as long as you don't try to impress your standards on anyone else, which most people here seem to be doing.
If, however, you are just jumping on the "I hate Spore" bandwagon and not using your OWN mind and drawing your OWN conclusions - I encourage you to take a step back.
If you haven't played it at all, give it a try. I know that even you DRM folks have a friend who's installed it.
You might be pleasantly surprised.
Regards,
TheDorque
I don't necessarily include anyone on this thread in it - but to me, it's like Windows Vista... or anything else that people hate without having any personal experience of it.
Quite frankly, I enjoy Spore, despite the fact I'm aware of the DRM, despite being a pretty serious, long-time gamer who realizes that there's not that much meat to the game. Why do I like it?
Because I find it fun.
You know, there wasn't that much meaty gameplay to things like Sim City or Bubble Bobble or PacMan or THOUSANDS of other "classics" that we all love. We accepted it back then. We enjoyed games because they were fun, not because they were packed with a million-billion features.
Why do we act differently today? Are people more creative today? Or have we just replaced fun with complexity in our minds?
I really think Spore is great. Complicated? Absolutely not. Bursting with new content waiting to be discovered? No. But it has an incredible innate sense of fun, cuteness, and adorable humour. I can play this game with my girlfriend (who is also a gamer), watch her enjoying it and share her creations - and share mine with her. I can log on and look at the latest things my friend's kids have made, or my niece, or just other people I interact with who play it.
So, if you've played it and don't like it, or have a genuine personal objection to it, that's absolutely fine by me - as long as you don't try to impress your standards on anyone else, which most people here seem to be doing.
If, however, you are just jumping on the "I hate Spore" bandwagon and not using your OWN mind and drawing your OWN conclusions - I encourage you to take a step back.
If you haven't played it at all, give it a try. I know that even you DRM folks have a friend who's installed it.
You might be pleasantly surprised.
Regards,
TheDorque
I wouldn't mind playing it, just sans DRM. Of course I'm rich enough to have a second hard drive and copy of windows, so I can install spore separate of my windows.
the dorque i do agree with your post to an extent, ive just one question however, what happens when we play SPORE on our 'friends' computer and like it?
it still doesnt negate the DRM issue.
there seems to me to be a certian degree of willful blindness on the part of certian groups of people that for some reason find it acceptable that companys like EA have a compleate and total disreguard for a consumers rights.
you paid cash for your game, the contract for games (till now) has allways been that you got to use your game and enjoy it as you will, including unlimited installs on any machine you choose too. an expectation that you could remove the game and ALL its contents from your computer at YOUR choosing, and perhaps most importiant that the transaction once done is just that, DONE. you have no further need of contact with the company you bought it from.
all this has changed with the advent of this DRM system. and thee most telling point is that no one would have known of it BEFORE they made the purchase if it was up to EA.
no sir this is a much bigger issue than people just 'jumping on a band wagon'. and i take mild offence that you could think that consumers are all sheep and are too ...... stupid (shall we say) to see what the end results of this policy of EAs will be.
this issue isnt about the game, you could replace SPORE with literaly ANY game and add this DRM and the end results would be the same.
i would ask you not to make the assumption that all that are against SPORE and THIS DRM are stupid and just following a pack. i for one am not, i am also not a pirate, and finaly im not 14 years old either. im a middle aged gamer who works hard for his cash and wants something to show for what he chooses to spend it on besides a rented game that infests my computer with software that i lack the time or the skill to remove without formating, and is basicaly a neon sign calling me atleast a potential criminal. and finaly all this was atleast attempted on EAs part to be done to me behind my back without me even knowing about it and having no choice what so ever about it BEFORE they have my money.
see I atleast am not a mear 'sheep' following along behind someone elses drum. i can think for myself and have. now i would ask those like you to do the same.
this issue is about more than a game. its about your basic right as one half of a business transaction to know what your getting into BEFORE you commit to the puchase. that is a basic componant of business the world over and gos far and above any statments like 'well if the games fun then live with it' as it would seem you are saying.
to me thats like sayin 'well as long as the food was good in the hospital, then you can live with being crashed into by that drunk driver that put you there right?'
it still doesnt negate the DRM issue.
there seems to me to be a certian degree of willful blindness on the part of certian groups of people that for some reason find it acceptable that companys like EA have a compleate and total disreguard for a consumers rights.
you paid cash for your game, the contract for games (till now) has allways been that you got to use your game and enjoy it as you will, including unlimited installs on any machine you choose too. an expectation that you could remove the game and ALL its contents from your computer at YOUR choosing, and perhaps most importiant that the transaction once done is just that, DONE. you have no further need of contact with the company you bought it from.
all this has changed with the advent of this DRM system. and thee most telling point is that no one would have known of it BEFORE they made the purchase if it was up to EA.
no sir this is a much bigger issue than people just 'jumping on a band wagon'. and i take mild offence that you could think that consumers are all sheep and are too ...... stupid (shall we say) to see what the end results of this policy of EAs will be.
this issue isnt about the game, you could replace SPORE with literaly ANY game and add this DRM and the end results would be the same.
i would ask you not to make the assumption that all that are against SPORE and THIS DRM are stupid and just following a pack. i for one am not, i am also not a pirate, and finaly im not 14 years old either. im a middle aged gamer who works hard for his cash and wants something to show for what he chooses to spend it on besides a rented game that infests my computer with software that i lack the time or the skill to remove without formating, and is basicaly a neon sign calling me atleast a potential criminal. and finaly all this was atleast attempted on EAs part to be done to me behind my back without me even knowing about it and having no choice what so ever about it BEFORE they have my money.
it would seem that the FTC atleast would agree with me on this issue.
see I atleast am not a mear 'sheep' following along behind someone elses drum. i can think for myself and have. now i would ask those like you to do the same.
this issue is about more than a game. its about your basic right as one half of a business transaction to know what your getting into BEFORE you commit to the puchase. that is a basic componant of business the world over and gos far and above any statments like 'well if the games fun then live with it' as it would seem you are saying.
to me thats like sayin 'well as long as the food was good in the hospital, then you can live with being crashed into by that drunk driver that put you there right?'
No, it does not, and you're perfectly entitled to that opinion. I simply believe it's important to make an informed decision on it instead of blind agreement that something is bad because other people say so - nor am I accusing any specific person of having done this - including you.Wyatt post=7.72435.763850 said:
I don't make that assumption, and I tried to go to pains to make it clear that I didn't. I apologize if that didn't come across clearly enough in my post. At the risk of being narcissistic, allow me to quote myself:Wyatt said:
TheDorque said:
I have, and I've made my choice. Just because you believe it's the wrong choice does not actually make it the wrong choice - it's a personal opinion. There is no right side or wrong side.Wyatt said:
No, my point was that we each have the right to choose whether we like the game without being inflammatory about it.Wyatt said:
I respect you and your opinion, but please read and consider mine a little closer before attacking me.
my last post wasnt ment as an attack. really it wasnt.
let me perhaps be more clear in my point. this issue is about more than spore as a game. in fact spore as a GAME isnt in question at all. the issue is with DRM. and as far as i can see there are two sides. one side sees this as the real danger to consumer rights that it is, and the other sides best point is that 'well the games ok, so live with the DRM'
i dont agree what so ever with that idea, and that idea is usualy tryed too be put across that the people that are very much anti-DRM are somehow mindless idiots that dont 'really understand' the issue.
i say that far from people that are anti-DRM being mindless sheep i see a whole body of people that really DO see the problem in its most simple form, and while some of these people may not be able to tell you the exact details of securom and how it works they CAN tell you that those details are a small part of the actual problem with DRM and that is EA telling you that despite the fact that they are willing to take your money you dont actualy OWN the game,and furthermore if you choose to use that game on your computer you wont OWN that anymore either THEY will, by installing programs that you need a tech degree to remove.
i say the last in the full relization that it could be seen as an example of being a mindless idiot, i do stretch the point but not by much, yes you will still own your computer it will just be infested with software that you cant remove without a conciderable investment in time and effort. the bit about owning the game though is 100% spot on, you wont own the game, and its a point that goes far far far beyond the 'have you ever read the EULA' argument that ive seen a few times. if you ignore a EULA your game still works, with securom after 3 (well 5 now) installs it doesnt. you dont get a choice at all BEFORE you buy the game over wether or not this is ok with you
it seems too me that the real idiot sheep are the ones that want too argue apples when everyone is bitching about the oranges. no one cares if spore is a good game (or not) since no one gets to play it without getting screwed by the DRM.
that doesnt make people idiots or sheep in fact it shows me that most consumers ARENT sheep that take what ever line is handed to them by companys and actualy know when they are getting the shaft.
i do agree 100% with you on one point, we all have the right to choose for ourselves if we are happy or not with the deal. if your happy with spore and the DRM thats ok with me. hell its ok with the universe as far as i can tell. my POINT is that how many people out there have bought spore and didnt even know about the DRM restrictions? if you knew about it BEFORE you bought it and are still happy with the deal great, seriously, but if you didnt know about the DRM untill after they had your money you got screwed period and being happy about the GAME has nothing to do with that blunt fact.
you CANT be happy with the DRM, if you are you would be a true idiot and i dont think you are by any means. at best you are capable of living with the DRM because you liked the game, but if you bought the game knowing about the DRM and what it means before hand and your still willing to do it then i have no cause to comment. you made an informed decision and its none of my business at all. on the other hand if you got the game, found out about the DRM after the fact and now have decided that you didnt 'REALLY' get screwd and try and put forth that opinion by calling OTHERS who DIDNT get screwed sheep ...... well im sure you see my point, and the reason for my somewhat harsh tone in reply to your comments.
ill say that i dont totaly disagree with your opinion that there are some people that are just jumping on the anti EA bandwagon. but the simple truth is that the issue is that importiant that even if they ARE just jumping on the band wagon, they have for once jumped on the RIGHT band wagon. EA is wrong with this DRM scheem its bad for every single person that actualy pays cash for any game that comes with it. its a basic question about who actualy OWNES what you paid for. people buy the game now with the understanding that they will OWN it, that just isnt the case. they DONT own it because of the DRM restrictions. and anyone who DOESNT see that is the true idiot. far more than any mindless sheep that might very well be jumping on a band wagon , but atleast the sheep picked the right side in this fight.
anyhow i dont mean anything ive said here as being a personel attack against you. i dont know you at all. but i DO mean my comments to be a direct attack on the whole topic of DRM and spore.
let me perhaps be more clear in my point. this issue is about more than spore as a game. in fact spore as a GAME isnt in question at all. the issue is with DRM. and as far as i can see there are two sides. one side sees this as the real danger to consumer rights that it is, and the other sides best point is that 'well the games ok, so live with the DRM'
i dont agree what so ever with that idea, and that idea is usualy tryed too be put across that the people that are very much anti-DRM are somehow mindless idiots that dont 'really understand' the issue.
i say that far from people that are anti-DRM being mindless sheep i see a whole body of people that really DO see the problem in its most simple form, and while some of these people may not be able to tell you the exact details of securom and how it works they CAN tell you that those details are a small part of the actual problem with DRM and that is EA telling you that despite the fact that they are willing to take your money you dont actualy OWN the game,and furthermore if you choose to use that game on your computer you wont OWN that anymore either THEY will, by installing programs that you need a tech degree to remove.
i say the last in the full relization that it could be seen as an example of being a mindless idiot, i do stretch the point but not by much, yes you will still own your computer it will just be infested with software that you cant remove without a conciderable investment in time and effort. the bit about owning the game though is 100% spot on, you wont own the game, and its a point that goes far far far beyond the 'have you ever read the EULA' argument that ive seen a few times. if you ignore a EULA your game still works, with securom after 3 (well 5 now) installs it doesnt. you dont get a choice at all BEFORE you buy the game over wether or not this is ok with you
it seems too me that the real idiot sheep are the ones that want too argue apples when everyone is bitching about the oranges. no one cares if spore is a good game (or not) since no one gets to play it without getting screwed by the DRM.
that doesnt make people idiots or sheep in fact it shows me that most consumers ARENT sheep that take what ever line is handed to them by companys and actualy know when they are getting the shaft.
i do agree 100% with you on one point, we all have the right to choose for ourselves if we are happy or not with the deal. if your happy with spore and the DRM thats ok with me. hell its ok with the universe as far as i can tell. my POINT is that how many people out there have bought spore and didnt even know about the DRM restrictions? if you knew about it BEFORE you bought it and are still happy with the deal great, seriously, but if you didnt know about the DRM untill after they had your money you got screwed period and being happy about the GAME has nothing to do with that blunt fact.
you CANT be happy with the DRM, if you are you would be a true idiot and i dont think you are by any means. at best you are capable of living with the DRM because you liked the game, but if you bought the game knowing about the DRM and what it means before hand and your still willing to do it then i have no cause to comment. you made an informed decision and its none of my business at all. on the other hand if you got the game, found out about the DRM after the fact and now have decided that you didnt 'REALLY' get screwd and try and put forth that opinion by calling OTHERS who DIDNT get screwed sheep ...... well im sure you see my point, and the reason for my somewhat harsh tone in reply to your comments.
ill say that i dont totaly disagree with your opinion that there are some people that are just jumping on the anti EA bandwagon. but the simple truth is that the issue is that importiant that even if they ARE just jumping on the band wagon, they have for once jumped on the RIGHT band wagon. EA is wrong with this DRM scheem its bad for every single person that actualy pays cash for any game that comes with it. its a basic question about who actualy OWNES what you paid for. people buy the game now with the understanding that they will OWN it, that just isnt the case. they DONT own it because of the DRM restrictions. and anyone who DOESNT see that is the true idiot. far more than any mindless sheep that might very well be jumping on a band wagon , but atleast the sheep picked the right side in this fight.
anyhow i dont mean anything ive said here as being a personel attack against you. i dont know you at all. but i DO mean my comments to be a direct attack on the whole topic of DRM and spore.
All right, that's cool, and I think you're pretty much completely right - except that you're missing one very major point, from my point of view.
As a long-time gamer and business major with a bit of a programming background, I think I'm in a unique position to see this.... so, here goes. My perception.
As reprehensible as their tactics were, as mean as DRM is - we need something like SecuROM for PC gaming as it stands to survive.... because we are fighting a war against it. We gamers are fighting a war against ourselves.
I know we've laughed at it, scoffed at it, and generally made fun of the industry's stance on piracy... but it's a serious issue now. Let me explain.
One of the first things they teach you in any business course is that it is the goal, the job, of any business to maximize profit while minimizing risk... and PC gaming as we know it is dying because that goal is simply not possible except under a few select circumstances.
Most developers that release software now are going one of two routes: they are either offering their software on a digital download system (some of which require being logged in to play it) or they are creating a subscription-based game. If piracy is allowed to continue unchecked, if something like SecuROM is not accepted, this will continue to happen until the only games left on the PC will be pay to play. Most developers have moved exclusively to consoles. Why? Because it's a lot harder to pirate games on a console. Because not many people bother. Because there is far less risk for far greater profit in developing for consoles today.
We PC gamers are fighting a war against ourselves, against our chosen form of entertainment, and the bad news is that we're winning, folks. EA and companies like them have been backed into a corner. They're still willing to publish non-MMORPG PC games. They still want to. But they have to justify to their shareholders the expense compared to just putting it out on a console. Spore would barely have suffered from being entirely console-based - but EA knew that they wanted it to be a PC game, and they took steps to make sure they could do that. Did they do it right? I'm not sure. That's an individual decision. I know they kept the public in the dark more than they should have - but here is the key.
You say that they're a danger to consumers. You say they're stepping on our rights. You say, effectively, that they're stealing from us because they still own the product that we've paid for.
Isn't that just turning the tables? Haven't we just been stealing their intellectual property for years and years? Am I the only one who ever copied an EA game on Commodore 64? M.U.L.E. came out over 15 years ago.... I've been stealing games from EA for over 15 years.
To paraphrase the song, they're not gonna take it anymore.
PC gamers, DRM should not be the issue to you that it is - it should be a wake up call. We, collectively, have finally backed the video game companies - the powerhouses - into this corner, and like any other cornered creature, those that can still fight are fighting back. Many just folded. Even Blizzard has been forced to partner with Activision right before releasing their two upcoming non-subscription games. Do you think that happened by accident?
No. Even if their tactics are dirty... this was never a clean fight, and I feel that as a dedicated PC gamer, I have to support EA.... because in the long run, they're one of the few companies willing to stand for the continuance of PC gaming.
As a long-time gamer and business major with a bit of a programming background, I think I'm in a unique position to see this.... so, here goes. My perception.
As reprehensible as their tactics were, as mean as DRM is - we need something like SecuROM for PC gaming as it stands to survive.... because we are fighting a war against it. We gamers are fighting a war against ourselves.
I know we've laughed at it, scoffed at it, and generally made fun of the industry's stance on piracy... but it's a serious issue now. Let me explain.
One of the first things they teach you in any business course is that it is the goal, the job, of any business to maximize profit while minimizing risk... and PC gaming as we know it is dying because that goal is simply not possible except under a few select circumstances.
Most developers that release software now are going one of two routes: they are either offering their software on a digital download system (some of which require being logged in to play it) or they are creating a subscription-based game. If piracy is allowed to continue unchecked, if something like SecuROM is not accepted, this will continue to happen until the only games left on the PC will be pay to play. Most developers have moved exclusively to consoles. Why? Because it's a lot harder to pirate games on a console. Because not many people bother. Because there is far less risk for far greater profit in developing for consoles today.
We PC gamers are fighting a war against ourselves, against our chosen form of entertainment, and the bad news is that we're winning, folks. EA and companies like them have been backed into a corner. They're still willing to publish non-MMORPG PC games. They still want to. But they have to justify to their shareholders the expense compared to just putting it out on a console. Spore would barely have suffered from being entirely console-based - but EA knew that they wanted it to be a PC game, and they took steps to make sure they could do that. Did they do it right? I'm not sure. That's an individual decision. I know they kept the public in the dark more than they should have - but here is the key.
You say that they're a danger to consumers. You say they're stepping on our rights. You say, effectively, that they're stealing from us because they still own the product that we've paid for.
Isn't that just turning the tables? Haven't we just been stealing their intellectual property for years and years? Am I the only one who ever copied an EA game on Commodore 64? M.U.L.E. came out over 15 years ago.... I've been stealing games from EA for over 15 years.
To paraphrase the song, they're not gonna take it anymore.
PC gamers, DRM should not be the issue to you that it is - it should be a wake up call. We, collectively, have finally backed the video game companies - the powerhouses - into this corner, and like any other cornered creature, those that can still fight are fighting back. Many just folded. Even Blizzard has been forced to partner with Activision right before releasing their two upcoming non-subscription games. Do you think that happened by accident?
No. Even if their tactics are dirty... this was never a clean fight, and I feel that as a dedicated PC gamer, I have to support EA.... because in the long run, they're one of the few companies willing to stand for the continuance of PC gaming.
Wait a sec, I think you've got a point after I remembered that this game took 8 friggin' years to make.harhol post=7.72435.760622 said:
8 year development time and only 1 million sold?
Maybe it's a "hit" to us - but for EA I bet it's a hit in the balls.
ill sum up my entire reply to your economics 101 class with this.
as long as EA is showing a profit they will stay in business.
your whole argument for pro-DRM goes out the window when you say "ive been a gamer for x years" pirats been stealing games for those X years. and gaming is one of the fastest growing forms of entertainment ever.
if they didnt make money they wouldnt make games. dealing with pirats is the cost of doing business, its like a trucker dealing with a flat tire, or a doctor treating an uninsured person.
as long as EA shows ANY profit at all then treating the very people that BUY their games as a thief is uncalled for.
DRM doesnt work period. its like gun control, if you make it illegal to have guns then only criminals will have them, you slap DRM on all your games then your only pissing off the people that will BUY them , its not even a speed bump to those people that wouldnt buy your game anyhow when they CAN steal it.
and the first and primary rule I was tought in economics 101 is NOT to piss off your customers.
as long as EA is showing a profit they will stay in business.
your whole argument for pro-DRM goes out the window when you say "ive been a gamer for x years" pirats been stealing games for those X years. and gaming is one of the fastest growing forms of entertainment ever.
if they didnt make money they wouldnt make games. dealing with pirats is the cost of doing business, its like a trucker dealing with a flat tire, or a doctor treating an uninsured person.
as long as EA shows ANY profit at all then treating the very people that BUY their games as a thief is uncalled for.
DRM doesnt work period. its like gun control, if you make it illegal to have guns then only criminals will have them, you slap DRM on all your games then your only pissing off the people that will BUY them , its not even a speed bump to those people that wouldnt buy your game anyhow when they CAN steal it.
and the first and primary rule I was tought in economics 101 is NOT to piss off your customers.
My problem with the SecuROM is that it is only hurting consumers, as has been mentioned many times. The pirates (you know, the ones SecuROM is "protecting" us against) cracked the game a week before it even came out, and the game is currently well on it's way to becoming the most downloaded game in history. On top of this, EA has the class action lawsuit against them, in part due to the fact that SecuROM is essentially spyware. All in all, I don't hate EA on principle, but they really shot themselves in the foot on this one.
