DSOG: TotalBiscuit interviewed by the BBC

[Barbas]

Well, this just appeared in my YouTube feed today, and I thought it'd be something of interest to a fair number of people here. I'd appreciate if you'd give it a listen and tell me what you think:


The interviewer, Jatinder Singh Nandra, is working on a short film called The Dark Side Of Gaming, for which he has already interviewed several other figures in gaming:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/9fe76f89-2d48-4393-bbdd-d6b15b0b0503

Takes me back to the old Acorn games of Podd and whatever that one was where the wolf shows up and causes all the kids to run screaming out of the computer lab.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I didn't listen, scanned over the reaction on the TB Reddit fan page. They seemed a bit underwhelmed by it.

On the subject of Mr. Bain, found this to be a punchy exploration of "online harassment", particularly given the nature of the comments that were upsetting her (IE, probably not what you'd think).


Thought it was an interesting glimpse into how even seemingly benign online interactions can cause a lot of pain and upset. You never know what the person at the other end of your interaction is dealing with. I won't use the word "trigger" because it's honey for idiots, but the definition of 'cruelty' can be more evasive than one might think.

 

[sageoftruth]

I was initially a bit put off by the title of the planned film, but after listening, I have to agree, there are some problems not just with gaming but the online atmosphere as a whole. Personally, I felt that what he said captured what I felt about the situation, which is that trolls and the lack of online accountability are the problem, rather than any particular movement, community, or subculture. He even offered some interesting ideas for solutions. I'm not much of a Twitter user, so I can't judge how effective they'll be, but I hope it helps bring focus to the attempt to make the internet more pleasant than it currently seems to be.

 

[Bombiz]

I think your link is broken. At least for me it is.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I was initially a bit put off by the title of the planned film, but after listening, I have to agree, there are some problems not just with gaming but the online atmosphere as a whole. Personally, I felt that what he said captured what I felt about the situation, which is that trolls and the lack of online accountability are the problem, rather than any particular movement, community, or subculture. He even offered some interesting ideas for solutions. I'm not much of a Twitter user, so I can't judge how effective they'll be, but I hope it helps bring focus to the attempt to make the internet more pleasant than it currently seems to be.

Yeah I'm almost finished. It's not exactly a hard hitting interview, but it's a lot more casual than the title of the planned film would imply.

Be interested to know how the defenders/proponents of "troll culture" would view TB's opinion on the subject, as he's particularly lionized by the "taking offense is the only offensive thing" lobby.

 

[Zhukov]

On the subject of Mr. Bain, found this to be a punchy exploration of "online harassment", particularly given the nature of the comments that were upsetting her (IE, probably not what you'd think).

Well. That was... mildly heartbreaking.

The fact that she's so utterly non-confrontational and inoffensive about the whole thing and clearly making every effort to be understanding only makes it all the more sad. If I were in that situation I'm pretty sure I'd be letting fly with every bit of barbed viciousness that came to hand.

Honestly, you'd think people would know that commenting on the day-to-day appearance of a stranger with terminal cancer in such a way that that person or a loved one will likely read it is decidedly insensitive. It really shouldn't take some kind of doctorate in social finesse to realize that.

If they weren't aware of what was going on then fair enough. Innocent mistake. But most of them, at least those in the screengrab, very clearly were.

Like she says, there wasn't any malevolent or mean-spirited intent there. Hell, I suspect most of them thought they were being kind and supportive, but Christ, some people need to get a fucking clue.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well. That was... mildly heartbreaking.

The fact that she's so utterly non-confrontational and inoffensive about the whole thing and clearly making every effort to be understanding only makes it all the more sad. If I were in that situation I'm pretty sure I'd be letting fly with every bit of barbed viciousness that came to hand.

Honestly, you'd think people would know that commenting on the day-to-day appearance of a stranger with terminal cancer in such a way that that person or a loved one will likely read it is decidedly insensitive. It really shouldn't take some kind of doctorate in social finesse to realize that.

If they weren't aware of what was going on then fair enough. Innocent mistake. But most of them, at least those in the screengrab, very clearly were.

Like she says, there wasn't any malevolent or mean-spirited intent there. Hell, I suspect most of them thought they were being kind and supportive, but Christ, some people need to get a fucking clue.

Genna is anything but a scold, which is what makes it such an interesting insight into how people can be hurt in ways you're not expecting. If she was railing at everyone, I imagine the common reaction to wall off criticism by shutting down would ensue. This just makes me want to hand her a blanket and punch the computer.

And you're right, I think there was little active malice about it, if any. I think it's as simple as the remove the internet gives us completely demolishing our ability to identify social cues. It's something we're aware of and discuss with overt trolling and harassment, but we view that as a willful abandonment of tact and sensitivity by people who are reveling in the anonymity the internet grants them. I do wonder, however, how much sensitivity we lose just by default. Just through interacting online, leaving messages for someone who isn't there. Someone you can't see or hear, and just venting whatever thoughts trickle through your head.

I mean, I'm routinely snippy as fuck with people online, but I'm the very picture of genial chumminess when face to face with people. I don't think of myself as a troll or provocateur, but interacting on the internet definitively has the capacity to dim my compassion.

Anyway I'm rambling. Just thought it was interesting. Hardly gaming related, but hey, she's TB's wife. Close enough.

 

[NPC009]

I didn't listen, scanned over the reaction on the TB Reddit fan page. They seemed a bit underwhelmed by it.

On the subject of Mr. Bain, found this to be a punchy exploration of "online harassment", particularly given the nature of the comments that were upsetting her (IE, probably not what you'd think).


Thought it was an interesting glimpse into how even seemingly benign online interactions can cause a lot of pain and upset. You never know what the person at the other end of your interaction is dealing with. I won't use the word "trigger" because it's honey for idiots, but the definition of 'cruelty' can be more evasive than one might think.

Oh, geez, when the review for That Dragon, Cancer went up on a website I write for and the mods had to ban three people before the day even ended, I thought we had it bad. She has to deal with painful comments whenever her husband is in a video... That people don't mean to hurt her, but act out of ignorance, might even make it worse. Makes me want to, I don't know, hand her a basket full of kittens or something.

 

[Fappy]

Well. That was... mildly heartbreaking.

The fact that she's so utterly non-confrontational and inoffensive about the whole thing and clearly making every effort to be understanding only makes it all the more sad. If I were in that situation I'm pretty sure I'd be letting fly with every bit of barbed viciousness that came to hand.

Honestly, you'd think people would know that commenting on the day-to-day appearance of a stranger with terminal cancer in such a way that that person or a loved one will likely read it is decidedly insensitive. It really shouldn't take some kind of doctorate in social finesse to realize that.

If they weren't aware of what was going on then fair enough. Innocent mistake. But most of them, at least those in the screengrab, very clearly were.

Like she says, there wasn't any malevolent or mean-spirited intent there. Hell, I suspect most of them thought they were being kind and supportive, but Christ, some people need to get a fucking clue.

Genna is anything but a scold, which is what makes it such an interesting insight into how people can be hurt in ways you're not expecting. If she was railing at everyone, I imagine the common reaction to wall off criticism by shutting down would ensue. This just makes me want to hand her a blanket and punch the computer.

And you're right, I think there was little active malice about it, if any. I think it's as simple as the remove the internet gives us completely demolishing our ability to identify social cues. It's something we're aware of and discuss with overt trolling and harassment, but we view that as a willful abandonment of tact and sensitivity by people who are reveling in the anonymity the internet grants them. I do wonder, however, how much sensitivity we lose just by default. Just through interacting online, leaving messages for someone who isn't there. Someone you can't see or hear, and just venting whatever thoughts trickle through your head.

I mean, I'm routinely snippy as fuck with people online, but I'm the very picture of genial chumminess when face to face with people. I don't think of myself as a troll or provocateur, but interacting on the internet definitively has the capacity to dim my compassion.

Anyway I'm rambling. Just thought it was interesting. Hardly gaming related, but hey, she's TB's wife. Close enough.

Can't say the same about me. I'm just as obnoxious in real life. Possibly more so

 

[sageoftruth]

I was initially a bit put off by the title of the planned film, but after listening, I have to agree, there are some problems not just with gaming but the online atmosphere as a whole. Personally, I felt that what he said captured what I felt about the situation, which is that trolls and the lack of online accountability are the problem, rather than any particular movement, community, or subculture. He even offered some interesting ideas for solutions. I'm not much of a Twitter user, so I can't judge how effective they'll be, but I hope it helps bring focus to the attempt to make the internet more pleasant than it currently seems to be.

Yeah I'm almost finished. It's not exactly a hard hitting interview, but it's a lot more casual than the title of the planned film would imply.

Be interested to know how the defenders/proponents of "troll culture" would view TB's opinion on the subject, as he's particularly lionized by the "taking offense is the only offensive thing" lobby.

True. BBC lives up to its reputation here. I generally don't watch TV news, but if I had to I would probably choose them. They seem far less incendiary and sensationalist than most TV news.

I guess I can see why trolls might feel that he's on their side. He's one of the few that suggests trying to understand why they act the way they do, and he seems to be forgiving of petty insults but I don't get the impression that he condones their behavior, especially when it goes beyond one-off spur of the moment insults. Not condoning their behavior by itself might be enough for trolls to start calling him "traitor" or something of the sort. As he suggested, they're usually not the most well-adjusted people. Judging from his talks about Twitter, he sounds like he would probably support an attempt to cut down on offensive speech as long as it was implemented smartly.

 

[veloper]

When people become upset by a troll, they place value on words they don't agree with, coming from a virtual character they don't know, don't care about and don't need for anything. It is foolish.

 

[veloper]

When people become upset by a troll, they place value on words they don't agree with, coming from a virtual character they don't know, don't care about and don't need for anything. It is foolish.

I'd offer to help you test that hypothesis on yourself, but I dont want to risk my last account warning on something that petty.

Then you'll just have to stick with theory, or make do with practical results achieved elsewhere (there's plenty of those).

I'm not saying I'm not even a little bit foolish myself BTW, but the wise man doesn't let anything so insubstantial get to him. Netizens need to work on some self-control.

 

[CritialGaming]

TotalBiscuit has long since had problems dealing with criticism in regards to online comments on his channel. This actually dates way back to his Wow radio days where he would admit to taking breaks because he couldn't handle shit people left in his commented section.

TB, to me, has always been a weird case. Because the guy can really dish out punishment to people. He'll talk shit about people's ideas, or play styles (especially back when he played WoW). He'll tear games apart, he will be really harsh, and people really like him for it.

But he can't handle anything directed back at himself. For someone who has built themselves a huge public following, he really never had the skin to handle it. Negative bullshit comments on his videos would mentally shut him down, to the point where he turned all comments on Youtube off completely.

He has been very successful in the wrong line of work for him. I do not believe you can be a celebrity of ANY nature, without being able to handle people talking shit, being mean. By turning off his comments he has effectively Alienated himself from his audience and somehow has managed to stay popular regardless.

Bottom line is this. People being dicks on internet comments are effectively the online version of heckling. People say horrible shit to Athletes, and actors all the fucking time.

In the end TB probably should have been a lawyer with that law degree of his, and stayed away from stepping into any spotlights.

Either way he has been successful and I hope he can battle through his cancer for a long time to come. I wish him the best.

 

[Cowabungaa]

When people become upset by a troll, they place value on words they don't agree with, coming from a virtual character they don't know, don't care about and don't need for anything. It is foolish.

It's not foolish, it's simple human psychology. Words have power. A lot of it, even.

 

[shrekfan246]

Be interested to know how the defenders/proponents of "troll culture" would view TB's opinion on the subject, as he's particularly lionized by the "taking offense is the only offensive thing" lobby.

To be perfectly honest, it's not hard to see why they think that way. I haven't watched the video that is the subject of this thread, and maybe he's a bit more measured and understanding in it than I'm expecting, but historically TB's stance on harassment has been inconsistent at best and rarely in favor of the people being harassed (you know, unless he personally knows them, because then it's a problem).

I mean, just recently he played the "most of you must be autistic" card (alongside the "I've worked with autistic kids, I know what I'm talking about" one) to essentially dismiss how his viewers were criticizing the way he acted to his friends while playing a competitive multiplayer game. I'll give him sympathy for the fact that he's dealing with a terminal disease, but I just said it elsewhere and I'll say it here, when it comes to social issues he's basically a posterboy for "arrogant, self-important, privileged white guy". Which is all the more galling when you take into consideration the things he and his wife have had to deal with.

 

[veloper]

When people become upset by a troll, they place value on words they don't agree with, coming from a virtual character they don't know, don't care about and don't need for anything. It is foolish.

It's not foolish, it's simple human psychology.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

If it weren't foolish, someone should be able to make a case why it's a good idea to lose your shit over reading a troll post.

Words have power. A lot of it, even.

Some words, uttered by the right people, sure, but anonymous internet users, not really. The common troll, flamer and kid cannot do anything if you ignore them.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

To be perfectly honest, it's not hard to see why they think that way. I haven't watched the video that is the subject of this thread, and maybe he's a bit more measured and understanding in it than I'm expecting, but historically TB's stance on harassment has been inconsistent at best and rarely in favor of the people being harassed (you know, unless he personally knows them, because then it's a problem).

I mean, just recently he played the "most of you must be autistic" card (alongside the "I've worked with autistic kids, I know what I'm talking about" one) to essentially dismiss how his viewers were criticizing the way he acted to his friends while playing a competitive multiplayer game. I'll give him sympathy for the fact that he's dealing with a terminal disease, but I just said it elsewhere and I'll say it here, when it comes to social issues he's basically a posterboy for "arrogant, self-important, privileged white guy". Which is all the more galling when you take into consideration the things he and his wife have had to deal with.

People in general tend to be highly protective of themselves and others who share their qualities and values. It's why homegrown tragedies tend to be devastating, and global tragedies often go by unremarked upon. It's why stories that reflect our own experiences tend to be the most powerful. It's why we tend to value the lives of our loved ones and closest friends over strangers. Mr. Bain having a more acute understanding of how words affect him and his loved ones than how his words might affect others is not evidence of an unusual callousness or deficit of compassion. It's utterly unremarkable. The same is likely true of literally every person currently using these forums, ourselves included. Your scathing condemnation of him issued as article of evidence #1.

I've been critical of TB in the past for his inability to stay out of internet arguments despite obviously loathing them, but it's a personal failing he's aware of and extremely frank about. I also despise internet arguments and find it difficult not to start/perpetuate them, so I'm sympathetic, because it's a quality I perceive in myself. That's how sympathy works. One of the definitions is literally "common feeling".

It's why people work so hard to establish those they dislike as "others", and attribute vile characteristics to them. It reduces them to objects and cartoons that are easy to vilify and attack, rather than complex human beings with feelings of their own. It's easy to tear down a "poster boy for self importance and privilege", less so a family man with cancer. It's easy to tear down a "SJW", less so an idealistic youth with anxiety who is poor at expressing themselves. Etc, etc, etc.

 

[CaitSeith]

Be interested to know how the defenders/proponents of "troll culture" would view TB's opinion on the subject, as he's particularly lionized by the "taking offense is the only offensive thing" lobby.

To be perfectly honest, it's not hard to see why they think that way. I haven't watched the video that is the subject of this thread, and maybe he's a bit more measured and understanding in it than I'm expecting, but historically TB's stance on harassment has been inconsistent at best and rarely in favor of the people being harassed (you know, unless he personally knows them, because then it's a problem).

I mean, just recently he played the "most of you must be autistic" card (alongside the "I've worked with autistic kids, I know what I'm talking about" one) to essentially dismiss how his viewers were criticizing the way he acted to his friends while playing a competitive multiplayer game. I'll give him sympathy for the fact that he's dealing with a terminal disease, but I just said it elsewhere and I'll say it here, when it comes to social issues he's basically a posterboy for "arrogant, self-important, privileged white guy". Which is all the more galling when you take into consideration the things he and his wife have had to deal with.

Telling his viewers that "they must be autistic" isn't harassment (it's pretty rude, but not harassment).

 

[shrekfan246]

To be perfectly honest, it's not hard to see why they think that way. I haven't watched the video that is the subject of this thread, and maybe he's a bit more measured and understanding in it than I'm expecting, but historically TB's stance on harassment has been inconsistent at best and rarely in favor of the people being harassed (you know, unless he personally knows them, because then it's a problem).

I mean, just recently he played the "most of you must be autistic" card (alongside the "I've worked with autistic kids, I know what I'm talking about" one) to essentially dismiss how his viewers were criticizing the way he acted to his friends while playing a competitive multiplayer game. I'll give him sympathy for the fact that he's dealing with a terminal disease, but I just said it elsewhere and I'll say it here, when it comes to social issues he's basically a posterboy for "arrogant, self-important, privileged white guy". Which is all the more galling when you take into consideration the things he and his wife have had to deal with.

People in general tend to be highly protective of themselves and others who share their qualities and values. It's why homegrown tragedies tend to be devastating, and global tragedies often go by unremarked upon. It's why stories that reflect our own experiences tend to be the most powerful. It's why we tend to value the lives of our loved ones and closest friends over strangers. Mr. Bain having a more acute understanding of how words affect him and his loved ones than how his words might affect others is not evidence of an unusual callousness or deficit of compassion. It's utterly unremarkable. The same is likely true of literally every person currently using these forums, ourselves included. Your scathing condemnation of him issued as article of evidence #1.

I would take that as true if it weren't for the fact that TB has shown himself to not care about the harassment of others when they're directly presenting what's happening to them and how it's affecting them for him to clearly see. If not borne of callousness, then his actions are at least influenced by ignorance, because he has far more often than not taken the wildly unhelpful "just don't feed the trolls" stance with regards to other people who are facing harassment, when he should very obviously know that doesn't work. I wouldn't ever say he acts out of malice, but good intentions don't necessarily entail good outcomes.

I understand that people can't care about literally everyone, and I know his particular history with regards to interacting with online communities. Perhaps I'm mostly disappointed because, as one of the more prominent Youtube celebrities involved in the gaming industry/community, he has been in a unique position to actually shine a spotlight on the horrible things people say and do to others online, and by and large he has seemingly squandered that. He has experienced it firsthand and yet still doesn't think other people who are going through the same or similar things should care as much as they do. I happen to disagree, because I, perhaps vainly, think the internet can be made better, and it should start with not trying to sweep the "trolls" and other similars under the metaphorical bridge.

It's why people work so hard to establish those they dislike as "others", and attribute vile characteristics to them. It reduces them to objects and cartoons that are easy to vilify and attack, rather than complex human beings with feelings of their own. It's easy to tear down a "poster boy for self importance and privilege", less so a family man with cancer. It's easy to tear down a "SJW", less so an idealistic youth with anxiety who is poor at expressing themselves. Etc, etc, etc.

And, of course, it's easy to hold up the alternates as being paragons of virtue who should be above attack. Yes, one reason I've come to avoid internet arguments in the past few years is that people view things in black&white and tend to attack others based on very literal interpretations of their words, with no accounting for any nuance or, indeed, context.

For the record, I'm not saying or trying to imply that TB is a horrible person. He's under no obligation to do anything about, well, anything, and he's certainly never built himself up to be some arbiter of social justice.

Be interested to know how the defenders/proponents of "troll culture" would view TB's opinion on the subject, as he's particularly lionized by the "taking offense is the only offensive thing" lobby.

To be perfectly honest, it's not hard to see why they think that way. I haven't watched the video that is the subject of this thread, and maybe he's a bit more measured and understanding in it than I'm expecting, but historically TB's stance on harassment has been inconsistent at best and rarely in favor of the people being harassed (you know, unless he personally knows them, because then it's a problem).

I mean, just recently he played the "most of you must be autistic" card (alongside the "I've worked with autistic kids, I know what I'm talking about" one) to essentially dismiss how his viewers were criticizing the way he acted to his friends while playing a competitive multiplayer game. I'll give him sympathy for the fact that he's dealing with a terminal disease, but I just said it elsewhere and I'll say it here, when it comes to social issues he's basically a posterboy for "arrogant, self-important, privileged white guy". Which is all the more galling when you take into consideration the things he and his wife have had to deal with.

Telling his viewers that "they must be autistic" isn't harassment (it's pretty rude, but not harassment).

Apologies, I was not meaning to say that he was harassing his viewers. That was supposed to be an example as explanation for why I don't feel he's particularly great at speaking up about social issues.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I would take that as true if it weren't for the fact that TB has shown himself to not care about the harassment of others when they're directly presenting what's happening to them and how it's affecting them for him to clearly see.

I guess I've not seen evidence of this. He's spoken at length a multitude of times about it, and always come down pretty hard on it. He's been snide and tossed insults, but I've got this glass house here that I live in, and cannot get a good angle on him from which to throw a stone.

And, of course, it's easy to hold up the alternates as being paragons of virtue who should be above attack. Yes, one reason I've come to avoid internet arguments in the past few years is that people view things in black & white and tend to attack others based on very literal interpretations of their words, with no accounting for any nuance or, indeed, context.

Well, primarily, people want to argue. They want a fight, and they want to win the fight. Usually they consider themselves the winner before the fight has even begun, and get manifestly more aggrieved and aggressive if that fact is not conceded with due haste. The medium has some inherent issues that complicate communication, and if you're not aware of them and showing up to interactions prepared to mitigate them, you're going to have a bad time.

And I don't consider anyone as being "above attack", but I'm also not enthused about making cases for why I should be allowed to "attack" people in the first place.