Dungeon Keeper App is a good game.

[BunnyKillBot]

So dungeon keeper, happened. Here was this game, reviving a much loved intellectual property, only to churn out yet another 'free-to-play', 'pay-to-win' 'freemium' pay-walled timer based travesty of Gemie injustice. The community, quite rightly decried this cash in. The escapists very own Jim Sterling made national news in the UK with his rebuttal. Dodgy dealings and subtle 'fixing' of App Store scores were uncovered. But how many people actually gave the game a chance. How many people laid aside their expectations to expose the game's core. Jim himself has spoken of gamer entitlement, and I believe here we have a hidden case in denial.

Folks I get it, I grew up with dungeon keeper and loved it. What right has this game to treat something loved from my childhood with disdain. What right has this company to take this IP and change it's format into something unrecognisable. I felt entitled to a proper dungeon keeper game. Heck, do a carmageddon and give me the original! But, folks, this IP is dead in the water. It has not seen any movement in 15 years. Loved, yes, but dead and even a little obscure. Yes, a company with cash has approached another company with a desire for cash that holds the IP. Maybe that is not the best intentioned way to start a game. But for all you know, this spark could bring Dungeon Keeper back from the grave, to a new generation to spark an IP revolution. Sorry, but your expectation, entitlement and rose-tinted reminiscing will never bring back what is loved and lost.

I find it incredibly ironic that the knee jerk reaction, encapsulated in 'there is no game play', could not be further from the truth. Beneath the surface, dungeon keeper has one of the most interesting and engaging mechanics I have come across on the mobile platform. Broadly speaking, it is a tactical resource acquisition game. In the early game, players build their base where resource is acquired through mines and single player objectives. This resource can be spent on new rooms, room upgrades and unit upgrades. They then must spawn armies of minions with which to raid other players dungeons, stealing resource to invest in their own dungeon, while simultaneously risking being raided themselves. Different unit types such as the skeleton, troll, bile demon etc have different predetermined AI behaviours. The army size is population capped, which means players must determine and summon from the pool of available minions according to their own particular raiding strategy. Because of the dynamic action, your player experience of dungeon keeper is in a constant state of flux, responding to behaviours of other players and progression of building and upgrades. When your dungeon is attacked, you can watch a replay, determine the strategic weakness of your dungeon and rework it. You can also 'learn' the strategic assaults of others, such as using warlocks to snipe a room over walls, or using ghosts when anti-air is weak.

Comparing this to all the other dross available on the market reveals 'there is no game to play' for what it is - the petulant remark of gamer entitlement. Take the Simpsons tapped out and the new Family Guy, quest for stuff for example. You might as well buy 10 egg timers, set them at random intervals, put them in a cupboard and shut the door. Occasionally check back throughout your day to see which ones have 'popped' and reset. Or how about this games greatest thematic parallel, Heroes of Dragon Age. Randomly spawn figures of game models to automatically battle in a turn based yawn fest. Spend real money for no guarantee of a mythic or rare. Where is the community outrage about this game? Where is the national media coverage? Just because dragon age 2 already set the precedent for crapping on a loved IP, where is your outrage?

So, dungeon keeper app is an emmersive, reactive, strategic game. What then of its main criticism. Pay walls and timers. Imps are this games worker threads, required to build, upgrade and mine anything in your dungeon. Task an imp to a job and it is removed from the pool of worker threads. Thus, where you task your imps is tactically central to the playing of the game. The timers are not simply paywalls designed to open your wallet. They force you to strategically place your worker threads to secure the most benefit, least disadvantage. Would I be better off mining this gem vain to open up a 3x3 area for my defensive room, or should I set to building a new door?

Given you got this game for free, what you can do is ask yourself, 'how much do I think this game is worth?'. Voluntarily pay for it in gems according to its worth and purchase some in game benefit. This will probably be best spent on new imps, which as worker threads are essential to progressing effectively. Personally I have played this game every day for the past three months, and spent a whopping £7.99.

And that's it really. Lay down your expectation, give it a chance and you might find yourself pleasantly surprised.

 

[L. Declis]

Sigh. Since no one else bothered to reply, I may as well. I shan't be coming back to see what you say though.

1) This thread smacks of clickbait-level of material, like you want some controversy and the shiny badges it will bring. Dungeon Keeper has been thoroughly criticised, and for good reason. I wish people would let old things die down (Mass Effect threads).

2) A solid wall of text is something no one wants to read. Be concise.

3) I can buy Dungeon Keeper 2, a game which doesn't need me to pay every time I want to do something, for £3.50 on GoG. Why would I bother with an app which will withhold gameplay from me?

4) Your description of gameplay. Play "Castle Crash". It's the same thing.

5) Castle Crash doesn't mock the player for, frankly terrible, practises involved in Dungeon Keeper, like pay money to speed things up.

6) The Dungeon Keeper App won't let you rate it lower than a 5, so it can trick more people.

7) You think people are entitled. That's your opinion. My opinion is you're entitled for wanting to tell people what they are allowed to feel.

 

[Iwantstuff]

Doesn't matter how much "gameplay" it has.

I'm not waiting an entire week to do what I could do in an hour in a game over a decade old just because a company wants money from me.

 

[BunnyKillBot]

1) This thread smacks of clickbait-level of material, like you want some controversy and the shiny badges it will bring. Dungeon Keeper has been thoroughly criticised, and for good reason. I wish people would let old things die down (Mass Effect threads).

My intentions are good and my conscious clear. I hold a pub club sub here because I love the work the escapist do, and I have played DK since release. This thread has been in my mind for at least a month but i have held back in fearful trepidation of the community backlash in this Lions Den. That alone implies something is incredibly wrong here. 'Old Things Die Down'? Nobody is talking about this. I have come to see DK become something of a meme analogising corporate greed and all that is wrong with the industry. This has become so engrained from the community backlash, the only commentators are spouting the rhetoric without ever actually having played the game. I believe that to be an incredibly unfair comparison given the quality of this game and some of the other material out there. Case in point, Heroes of Dragon Age, which encourages players to gamble real money for the uncertainty of getting an unknown character from the original 'game' to automatically battle with no player input or action.

2) A solid wall of text is something no one wants to read. Be concise.

Bullet points may be concise, but prose is more eloquent and mature. How many journalistic articles get written in bullet points. All the articles on the escapist, reviews and columns including extra punctuation. Prose.

3) I can buy Dungeon Keeper 2, a game which doesn't need me to pay every time I want to do something, for £3.50 on GoG. Why would I bother with an app which will withhold gameplay from me?

Chalk and Cheese. This game and Dungeon Keeper 2 are completely different games. I love the original DK games. I still have the disks in the loft i expect. Why get them from GoG when i can get them from my loft for free

4) Your description of gameplay. Play "Castle Crash". It's the same thing.
5) Castle Crash doesn't mock the player for, frankly terrible, practises involved in Dungeon Keeper, like pay money to speed things up.

Thanks, I will take the tip and check it out, however I am quite happy where I am with DK. Once again, you do not have to spend anything. The currency used to 'speed things up' is Gems, and Gems are attainable through normal gameplay, such as mining and raiding. The frugal player like myself must save gems and spend them wisely, not frivolously.

6) The Dungeon Keeper App won't let you rate it lower than a 5, so it can trick more people.

Please get your facts straight. That scandal, which i mention in the opening of my OP, was as far as i can recall, specifically related to the android app store, not the apple store, and redirected users to send an e-mail if they wanted to review the game 4 stars or less. That was only from the in game review prompt. Users could still navigate to and review the app through the store in traditional means.

7) You think people are entitled. That's your opinion. My opinion is you're entitled for wanting to tell people what they are allowed to feel.

That hurts my brain too much to decipher, but since you 'shan't be coming back' to see what I say I guess thats fine. Very mature of you.

Doesn't matter how much "gameplay" it has.

I'm not waiting an entire week to do what I could do in an hour in a game over a decade old just because a company wants money from me.

You don't have to wait a week, this game did not exist a decade ago and any game you have ever bought, yeah, the 'company wants money' from you. To quote will smith, 'Welcome to Earth'.

 

[Ubiquitous Duck]

No matter how good or bad the game was, it was mired in the kind of malpractice that was obviously going to be ridiculed.

EA stumbles again and obviously would take a hit from a community like the Escapist. And rightly so.

It would've been better off not calling it Dungeon Keeper.

Doesn't matter how much "gameplay" it has.

I'm not waiting an entire week to do what I could do in an hour in a game over a decade old just because a company wants money from me.

You don't have to wait a week, this game did not exist a decade ago and any game you have ever bought, yeah, the 'company wants money' from you. To quote will smith, 'Welcome to Earth'.

I believe they are referring to the fact that Dungeon Keeper has existed for over a decade, obviously not the app itself, not even possible.

And then referring to the long time you have to invest in mining blocks and prompts to finish this quicker with real money. Rather than the original, which you just paid for once and then played.

OT: I'm afraid you aren't going to get much defence from these parts on this topic.

Not that I think you should.

 

[BunnyKillBot]

It would've been better off not calling it Dungeon Keeper.

I do agree with that in part. The IP themeing of the game was always going to rub the olde tyme fans up the wrong way. However, it 'fits' with the model they have produced, works in its own way, and ultimately they paid to use the license. You have had 15 years to make your pitch for a DK remake, where was your pitch? Where was your kick starter. Where was the market call for your 'end product'. If this IP was so sacred as to defy the sacriligious, why has nothing happened with it in 15 years?

And then referring to the long time you have to invest in mining blocks and prompts to finish this quicker with real money. Rather than the original, which you just paid for once and then played.

This game was not meant for the PC market the originals were designed for. To quote EAs much ignored response:

"We specifically built Dungeon Keeper around typical mobile play patterns - that is, checking in a few minutes here and there throughout the day," she said. "This way of playing, we've found, allows fans to naturally progress

This game is not a marathon play session, story driven RPG. It is not the sort of game you sit down to for hours only to realise its dark outside, your bladder is full and your pizza should have gotten there hours ago. This is a mobile game, designed around the way real world people play mobile games. Not even a mobile game in the sense of the 3DS or vita, but mobile in the sense of the mobile phone market - smart and powerful multi use devices with near total market penetration. Would you compare dungeon keeper 2 to Cut the Rope? Bejewelled? Farmville, hayday and all the rest? You are making a incomparable comparison based on your own prejudice as what you consider a 'gamer' and 'game' to be.

OT: I'm afraid you aren't going to get much defence from these parts on this topic.

Not that I think you should.

A defence I need not, but I do believe it's an important message that needs to be heard. It would be good if some of the commentators could actually have playered the game they are commenting on. Unfortunately, the release was so polarising many of the detractors either saw the reviews, or dabbled for 5 minutes before decrying it an evil monstrosity. Not necessarily their fault, but certainly a problem.

Disclaimer: This is not a 'click bait'. This is my movie defence force for a game that it is currently extremely popular to hate, which I happen to get allot of enjoyment from.

 

[nuttshell]

You have had 15 years to make your pitch for a DK remake, where was your pitch? Where was your kick starter. Where was the market call for your 'end product'. If this IP was so sacred as to defy the sacriligious, why has nothing happened with it in 15 years?

To hell with Dungeon Keeper, all hail War for the Overlord!
https://wftogame.com/

Looks bretty good.

 

[1Life0Continues]

Nope, and nope.

Also, nope to this "thread."

Defend your purchases all you like, this "game" is a device to separate fools from their money. It's even worse than that [REDACTED] Crush game by reprehensible company King.

This game is a leech that relies ENTIRELY on the franchise name for success and thus deserves all of the bile it has received so far. Just like Aliens:CM and Duke Nukem Forever, there is an expectation attached to a franchise name. As such, by exploiting that name in order to fleece long time fans out of money is a disgusting offense.

No. To everything you said. Because it's willful ignorance of the state of mobile gaming for the sake of...I don't know, a chance to argue? Self justification? Self gratification?

I would agree that this smells like clickbait, but I actually think you truly believe everything you said. And that's...yeah. I got nothing.

 

[Gorrath]

And that's it really. Lay down your expectation, give it a chance and you might find yourself pleasantly surprised.

I did exactly this, and found the game to be terrible. What you describe as deep and immersive strategic gameplay, I call a borefest of epic proportions. You ask where the outrage over The Simpsons: Tapped out is? It was here, and in other places, all over the net. But even if that wasn't so, what difference does it make? I, nor anyone else, need to have even heard of The Simpsons or Family guy games to be critical of Dungeon Keeper and so you're engaging in a fallacy here.

I am in total agreement that Dungeon Keeper is severely lacking in game play. You don't see it that way? Fine, but that sure as shit doesn't make my opinion founded in "gamer entitlement". I, and everyone else, are free to have their own opinion about the game's mechanics and your accusation comes off as childish and again, is fallacious. Your attempt to undermine any opinion that does not agree with your own by way of lambasting the character of those who disagree weakens your position so much that it makes it difficult to take what you have to say seriously.

I've played an immense number of App store games and Dungeon Keeper ranks right up there with the worst I've endured. That's a mighty feat considering, as you say, the average phone game is pretty crap. The timer-based mechanic of "free to wait", is constantly defended by the developers who adopt it and at no point have I ever found it to be justified. You claim that it adds a dimension to the strategy because it demands tough choices by the player, and that could be true, if the player had no way to circumvent it by paying cash! If the timers can simply be reduced by the guy with the biggest wallet, and those timers are a critical element of the strategy, then circumventing them with money gives a strategic advantage. This makes the game pay-to-win by definition. You can't possibly argue that the timers are both important to the strategy and the game isn't pay to win, it's illogical as hell.

So you like and enjoy Dungeon Keeper? Great, have fun. But don't think for a moment a bunch of name-calling and opinions-as-assertions are going to convince anyone else that it's a good game. I don't even mean this post to be all that virulent, but your ad homenin nonsense about "gamer entitlement" really irked me. It's an opening salvo that instantly paints you as someone with no point to make, true or not.

And, as for your assertion that reminiscing and rose-tinted glasses won't bring back a beloved IP from the dead; I orient you toward X-Com. All that "gamer entitlement" bullocks seems to have had a pretty wonderful effect there, didn't it?

 

[Nazulu]

You know, I was gonna ignore this, but then I thought you could make a point about something and bring up food for thought. But I decided to stop reading when I saw this

Sorry, but your expectation, entitlement and rose-tinted reminiscing will never bring back what is loved and lost.

You shot yourself in the ass with this. I just rolled my eyes and just dropped it. Everyone I've seen say assumptions like this have already convinced themselves to be 'right', and it's no fun discussing.

Also, I find it funny that you brought up how Jim has talked about gamer entitlement like it's some type of support, then neglect to mention this lovely review of his - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/reviews/10956-Dungeon-Keeper-Mobile-Review-Wallet-Reaper

That's right, Jim himself has called this a cancer that's eroding the market.

 

[BunnyKillBot]

I did exactly this, and found the game to be terrible. What you describe as deep and immersive strategic gameplay, I call a borefest of epic proportions.

I, and everyone else, are free to have their own opinion about the game's mechanics

I agree 100%, and thats totally fine. I am glad you tried it.

And, as for your assertion that reminiscing and rose-tinted glasses won't bring back a beloved IP from the dead; I orient you toward X-Com. All that "gamer entitlement" bullocks seems to have had a pretty wonderful effect there, didn't it?

I have no knowledge of the original x-com and don't particularly like enemy unknown, however i will riposte with Diablo 3 which i couldn't get past the first act. However, who so ever holds the rights to a particular IP has the right to do what ever they want with it, regardless of what you, jim and any other commentator think about the situation.

 

[Gorrath]

And, as for your assertion that reminiscing and rose-tinted glasses won't bring back a beloved IP from the dead; I orient you toward X-Com. All that "gamer entitlement" bullocks seems to have had a pretty wonderful effect there, didn't it?

I have no knowledge of the original x-com and don't particularly like enemy unknown, however i will riposte with Diablo 3 which i couldn't get past the first act. However, who so ever holds the rights to a particular IP has the right to do what ever they want with it, regardless of what you, jim and any other commentator think about the situation.

I didn't assert that fans clamoring for a sequel and "true" successor to a game would guarantee said successor would be good. What I intended by my example was that fans clamoring for a successor they (by and large) consider to be a fun game, true to the original, can lead to exactly that. You said that no amount of rose-tinted glasses and reminiscing would resurrect a dead franchise, and with X-com, that's exactly what happened. This does not indicate it will work every time, but it does prove that it can work sometimes. X-com was going to be (and later was) released as a tactical FPS. This irked gamers who felt the need to complain. Their complaining led directly to a change in course by the company and a good game (subjective, I know, but this game is well regarded by fans and critics) was created, resurrecting the franchise. The thing you said does not work, worked. Diablo 3 has no bearing on that.

As to the rights holder and who can do what with what, of course they can do whatever they like. And we, as a community and as individuals, can choose to bash, knock, boycott, complain and critically dismember the developer for their decisions. No one that I've seen has suggested that developers aren't within their rights to crap all over the IP they own, so unless you can show this attitude is somehow prevalent, I think you're committing a strawman here.

 

[Coruptin]

I'm glad you enjoyed a thing, but if by trying to argue that dungeon keeper is a good game you're trying to convince more people to play, you might want to find other arguments besides, the reasons you hate the game should actually be the reasons you should like it! Just taking things like the waiting time and phrasing it in the way a person who is blatantly trying to market their own products using a quote from a guy trying to blatantly market his own product is extremely condescending. You might have your heart in the right place, trying to expose something you enjoy to others, but your execution what with the calling out a beloved content creator in the community and calling others entitled or blinded by nostalgia, is entirely off putting.

 

[BunnyKillBot]

As to the rights holder and who can do what with what, of course they can do whatever they like. And we, as a community and as individuals, can choose to bash, knock, boycott, complain and critically dismember the developer for their decisions. No one that I've seen has suggested that developers aren't within their rights to crap all over the IP they own, so unless you can show this attitude is somehow prevalent, I think you're committing a strawman here.

It is prevalent when a large proportion of individuals are in denial that there exists a market for exactly this type of game, proven by the fact this type of game exists. Markets are driven by demand, and producers are motivated by profit. Straw man in point, Geroge Lucas was entirely entitled to make changes to format re-releases of his films, however I am not 'entitled' to a non-edited bluray because 'I really liked the original'. The only justification for such a product is one of market demand - if there is a profit to be made, they will make it.

you might want to find other arguments besides, the reasons you hate the game should actually be the reasons you should like it!

I have said nothing of the sort, however the deep seated hatred is so prevalent here it must be dealt with in consideration of the thing itself. As I alluded, I have given this post allot of time and though, and started writing it multiple times. There is no nice way to enter the lions den with a wildly unpopular opinion, even with sincerity. It is what it is and I apologise if the tone is off-putting.

 

[Rawbeard]

Isn't it a little late for damage control, EA?

 

[Gorrath]

As to the rights holder and who can do what with what, of course they can do whatever they like. And we, as a community and as individuals, can choose to bash, knock, boycott, complain and critically dismember the developer for their decisions. No one that I've seen has suggested that developers aren't within their rights to crap all over the IP they own, so unless you can show this attitude is somehow prevalent, I think you're committing a strawman here.

It is prevalent when a large proportion of individuals are in denial that there exists a market for exactly this type of game, proven by the fact this type of game exists. Markets are driven by demand, and producers are motivated by profit. Straw man in point, Geroge Lucas was entirely entitled to make changes to format re-releases of his films, however I am not 'entitled' to a non-edited bluray because 'I really liked the original'. The only justification for such a product is one of market demand - if there is a profit to be made, they will make it.

Can you demonstrate that there is a large proportion of individuals that are in denial that a market for these games exist? The prevailing attitude isn't that there is no market for these games, but that the games are poorly made cash-grabs with little entertainment value. There is a huge market for reality TV, but that doesn't mean criticisms that say they are shit shows that aren't worth your time or attention are in denial. You seem to be conflating the actual feelings of the community with an opinion the community does not seem to hold. Thus my claim that you are strawmanning.

The second point you make seems to continue this trend. The prevailing community opinion seems to be that they think Dungeon Keeper mobile is a bad, lazy game and that we would have preferred a better game instead, NOT that we are somehow owed this hypothetical better game due to some entitlement. Again, you seem to be setting up a strawman. I love Star Wars and do not care much for the prequels. Having some knowledge of film, I have heavily criticized the prequels. This does not mean that I think I'm entitled to anything except my own opinion. It does not indicate that I think there was no market for the prequels, it does not indicate that I think I am owed a different movie instead of the one produced.

With all that said, I do not presume to speak for the community, I am only talking about what I have seen in threads discussing the game. I have not seen anyone state that they think they are "owed" anything. But I'm a reasonable person, if you can present compelling evidence that shows the community thinks EA is obligated to make a game to their tastes, I would be interested to read it.