Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition: Initial Impressions

Takatchi

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Alright, I realize that a great majority of "gamers" look down on tabletop gaming. This is less true in recent years than the strange and mysterious times of AD&D and the fabled "First Edition" itself, but it holds true often enough that someone owning a console will still look sideways at somebody who owns a library of rulebooks and sources for playing with dry-erase maps and plastic minis.

Still, I know there have to be a few people here who have looked at, played, or been in the same apartment complex as D&D at some point, and with the 4th Edition banners that have until recently populated the Escapist I thought it might be nice to write up a brief review of my experiences with Dungeons and Dragons.

To give a little history, I was a D&D 3.0 player. I was too young to get into AD&D and didn't even know what Dungeons and Dragons was until I was about 15. I started playing with some friends in junior high school and immediately fell in love with the system. I had never known anything different before it, and I wasn't the type of person to criticize or fault a numeric system for attempting to realize abstract character concepts on a sheet of paper. To me Dungeons and Dragons was a mechanical framework that could give you a kind of satisfaction to seeing the outcome of a roll of a d20, whereas the meat and potatoes of the game was the epic adventure, being the heroes and saving the day. Finding out who your character is and what destiny may unfold before his feet. At the base of it, D&D was a roleplaying outlet and a way to create cohesive concepts with other people.

As I played D&D with different groups and more people in addition to joining forums and browsing the Wizards of the Coast message boards, I discovered more and more things about tabletop gaming in general. I discovered the munchkins, the min-maxers, the hardcore roleplayers, the houserulers, the homebrewers, and tons of other playstyles. It was at this point that I realized that some people, when presented with a mechanical system, would do strange and unusual things that typically only students graduating with degrees in chaos theory would try to rationalize, simply because the rules could say they could. Still, it never really got in the way of my enjoyment of the game and I never questioned the foundation on which the entire thing rested precariously upon.

Then, 4th Edition came along. Maybe I was enjoying my slight mastery of the mechanical system so that I could, once a concept was born, create the pen-and-paper version of practically anything I desired, drawing on an extensive pool of knowledge about feats, skills, and assorted prestige classes. Maybe I was scared of change. Maybe the raving fanboys who'd purchase anything Wizards puts between two hard covers and calls "official" made me pee a little. Whatever the reason, 4th Edition hit like a gigantic rock in the middle of my otherwise quiet if undecorated midsummer-day swimming hole.

A lot of the changes in 4th Edition are presented mechanically, which has a good deal to do with why I thought it was unnecessary from the first day it was announced. See, Wizards had previously revised their "3.0" system into "3.5," which fixed a lot of mechanical errors in the game and helped stay abuse. This was OK, it was more like a "patch" than releasing a brand new game. Then they released "Star Wars Saga Edition," which utilized their 3.5 ruleset and combined various elements from other sources (such as d20 Modern, another 3.0-based supplement) to make a hybrid system that was flexible, adaptable, and worked well. Again, this wasn't so much of a brand new game as it was a game patch, and at the very onset of 4E's planning period a lot of my friends were excited. We were hoping that 4E would be a refinement of the hybridization shown to us in bare glimpses of the Star Wars player's manual, a perfected system that would allow us to realize even more creative character concepts and forge ahead into a shiny new library of books.

We were wrong.

4th Edition introduced many new concepts while keeping the fundamentals of the d20 system the same; that is, you basically roll a twenty-sided die to do anything you ever wanted. Everything else changed in various degrees, ranging from being edited into a more sensible or workable mechanic, all the way to being completely arbitrary and different. The main focus of 4th Edition appeared to be empowering the players. While this isn't a terrible thing, and 3rd Edition was probably greatly in need of more ways for DMs not to cripple their adventuring group, I feel that it went just a little bit too far and said "SPAAAAAARTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" as it leapt right off the deep end into the realm of Cliche Badassery. It really and truly feels like the developers were spending a lot of downtime playing WoW during 3.5's success, and when they were suddenly slapped with a deadline and a requirement to completely rewrite core concepts, from player races to the way the game plays, they could only go "Urk!" and CTRL+C/CTRL+V.

Let me give you an example. In D&D 3.X, players often complained about how the Wizard could, at level 20 (the previous maximum level before "epic" rules took over), destroy a Fighter without much effort. While it was true that Wizards got a huge repertoire of spells, they were limited in their uses per day, never mind the fact that the Wizard was always portrayed in a beneficial light. Saying a Wizard could beat a Fighter, when the fight starts 400 feet away from each other and the Wizard has 9,000,000 gold worth of magic items while the Fighter is armed with a loincloth and rusty spoon, is a little biased. Never mind the fact that in the whole of Dungeons and Dragons, the party was supposed to work together to overcome trials, not run around loldueling'ing with each other. I won't say that the class balance was perfect, but it was balanced more toward something other than scoring HUEG CRITICALZ.

In 4th Edition, they revamped most of the classes and broke them down into standardized rules. Every class gets a selection of a limited number of abilities they can use per day, per encounter, and "at-will." These are chosen from a list individual to each class, and are an attempt at giving them more flexibility in choosing what each can do. While this is respectable, as in previous editions you simply "got what you got at X level," this makes everything feel a little too video-gamey. The list for each class is rather limited, and there are obvious logic flaws; the Fighter, for example, can choose "Cleave" as one of his at-will abilities. This means that every turn, the fighter can hit 2 enemies instead of 1. This Fighter can also choose a "once per encounter" power, called "Spinning Sweep." This ability allows a Fighter to attack an enemy and, if successful, knocks the enemy down. Now, my question is, why is it that a Fighter can swing his weapon in wide, accurate arcs (as Cleave suffers no penalty to attack rolls made to-hit) all day, every day, every second of every encounter, while he can only swing at someone's feet once every 10 or so minutes? Even putting logic aside, many class abilities feel like strict copies of others. Wizards get an at-will called magic missile, a ranged attack they can use any time of the day to deal damage to one foe. Warlocks get Eldritch Blast, an at-will ranged attack that they can...use to deal damage to one foe? Warlords have Inspiring Word, which can heal allies. Clerics have Healing Word, which can...heal allies too?

The supposed "creativity" of the system and "new concepts" feel a lot like they're being dumbed down for quicker character generation. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, seeing as how Dungeons and Dragons 3.X could take new or inexperienced players literally hours to scour rulebooks to find carrying capacity and pick spells. To anyone more used to the system of 3rd Edition and previous, 4th Edition may seem like a hand-holding, crooning mother figure compared to a frame in which to build a new and interesting character. It basically comes down to choosing between about 8 races (guest starring the Draenei, from World of WarCraft) and about 8 classes. Then they must make the arduous choice of where to place their talent point--er, I mean, what special abilities to choose to make them "unique." Since many abilities are strictly thematic, ie, "Two-handed DPS Fighter" or "Sword-and-board Tank Fighter," this isn't very difficult either.

Once you get past the character generation, you can really appreciate the roleplaying opportunities 4th Edition provides. It expands the "playable" levels up to 30, and makes leveling less of a concern, allowing you to focus on the development and expansion of your character's personality, goals, and feelings towards eating other party members. This may seem ideal, because roleplaying is a major factor in tabletop roleplaying games, but the feeling may be a little bit dulled when you discover there are rules clearly listed for everything. Your character can literally choose a destiny as he approaches level 30, and this "destiny" gives you obvious mechanical perks. For instance, if you pick "Demigod" for your character's destiny, you gain superpowers as you near level 30. At level 30, your character immediately poofs and becomes some entity to be worshiped on the Plane of Gods. I wish I were making this up, but the rulebook literally says that as soon as you hit level 30 and complete your "destiny quest," you hand over your character sheet and the game is over. That's it. The adventure ends, time to roll up level 1 characters and go on another one. Pardon me for feeling a bit railroaded, but isn't this what happens in the end of every Final Fantasy game? You save the world, become the world's most badass swordfighter, and learn to summon monsters that can eradicate the solar system, then you retire to serving tea in a quaint shop somewhere in BFE. That's what this is, and it's literally written into the rules.

In the end, I suppose I will always draw the conclusion that 4th Edition feels like a "moneymaker." It's only natural for a company to want to make more money, but the timing and execution for it are bad business. 3rd Edition revamped itself halfway through its career, and afterwards released literally hundreds of supplements from both WotC and third-party publishers. Gamers sank thousands into the franchise, from collectible miniatures to use on their Wizards-approved game mats, to rulebooks that would allow them to play fighter/wizard/cleric/halfling/dragon/anthropomorphic cheesecakes. They release campaign settings with unique and adventurous stories, such as Eberron and the Forgotten Realms. Even such classics as Greyhawk were popular, to the point it became the "mainstream generic D&D setting." As soon as 4th Edition came onto the shelves, Wizards of the Coast dropped development for further 3.X content and no longer provides support for 3.X-related materials on their official website! If that wasn't enough, the company Paizo Publishing has the rights to release a new D&D rulebook called Pathfinder, which takes 3.5 Edition and modifies it with beneficial updates and rules that many classic 3.X gamers, like myself, thought the game could have used from square one. Essentially, it comes down to Wizards scrapping everything and telling their fanbase that every product bought before 4E was invalid, and that should fans want to stay "official" they should upgrade to 4th Edition. I honestly believe this was not because D&D gamers were crying for a completely different game system, it was simply because the company felt it was time to cash the check and write a new one.

Despite all of this, I can't say that 4th Edition is unworthy of attention. It has its merits, and like all games it breaks down into aesthetics. Trying to compare 3.X and 4E alongside one another is like trying to compare a Sega Genesis with a Super Nintendo. They both play video games, it comes down to whether you prefer Mario over Sonic. If you are looking for something new to try in your tabletop gaming sessions and like more action-oriented adventure a la World of WarCraft, pick up 4th Edition and follow along. If you still prefer the flexible character creation, varied races, multiclassing, and huge amount of resources available, stick with 3.5 until Paizo Publishing releases the final version of Pathfinder.
 

BloodSquirrel

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I "grew up" on 3.0- having played 4th edition now, I can say that it's hands-down better than 3.0 or 3.5.

The game has been simplified in areas where it was unnecessarily complex or unwieldy, but has been made more tactical overall, with combat feeling a lot deeper than 3.0. It manages to be easier to learn and easier to run without feeling like it's missing any of what makes D&D what it is.

Paragon paths are far better conceived than prestige classes, with epic destinies being a very interesting concept (although, admittedly, they need more of them).

Yes, there are some ideas which feel as though they are borrowed from WoW, but they're *good* ideas. Encounter powers, at will powers, and daily powers work a lot like WoW abilities with variable cooldowns. The concept works well in WoW and it works well here; it allows more flexibility in how many encounters the party can handle per day while still allowing for a single encounter to be just as difficult.

4th edition is, overall, the best tabletop/larp system I've seen. Oh, and the monster manual is *exactly* where gnomes belong.
 

Dysmachia

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4th edition is incredibly good. The only place where it does not beat out 3.5e or any other previous edition of DnD is the lack of choice, and that's because it came out last month and doesn't have a library of splat books to add variety. That's ignoring the fact that 90% of the stuff in those extra books for 3.5e was complete and utter crap. That's also ignoring the fact that the other 10% had to be looked at under a microscope by the DM to make sure it didn't fuck the game up, and it always did.

Cleric were hands down the best class when divine metamagic was introduced. Wizards are a close second, and druids are arguably as strong. It was plain ridiculous how any of these three classes could equip themselves to fight as good as a fighter and had abilities far beyond the ken of their martial counterparts. Tome of battle partially rectified this disparity but it was a patch on a torn sweater, essentially.

3.5 also happened to have vast tracts of unneccessary additions and verbose rules. Grapple anyone? That half the weapons in the PhB were hands-down inferior to others? In contrast, every rule in the 4e core books is excellently crafted. Everything is structured in a way so as to make it clear and easily used in game.

This same restructuring (well, structuring, 3.5e was hardly structured) gives it a powerful ability to be extended with user content. I created an artifact in about ten minutes that satisfied me very much. The same process would have taken an hour in 3.5e, but that's not a good point so I'll give you a better one: I designed an entire dungeon in an hour whilst my players created 3 characters. They had never seen the 4e PHB at that point and took in all the rules easily and quickly, gaining a proficiency that would have taken months in 3.5e.

The awesome thing is that the rules are more expressive and mesh much better with roleplaying because they're so simple. Simple and expressive as opposed to obfuscated and expressive; that's the difference between 4e and 3.5e.

And one other thing: In 3.5e, you essentially had to avoid a pit-fall at every turn in character creation. There was an incredible difference between the best choice, a good choice, and a poor choice. In 4e, it is difficult to make a poor choice that is significantly worse than the average character. This doesn't mean there are less choices, it means the choices provided are all viable. 3.5e had nine stupid options for every good one and one in every ten of those good ones was ridiculously broken, but only after poring through numerous splatbooks looking for loopholes in the most esoteric rules of the system. 4e is designed in such a way that such bloat and obfuscation doesn't occur and so it's easier to manage options as a DM and as a player.

All in all, you have to be masochistic to think that 3.5 is better than 4. The only reason to not change is the amount of material that 3.5 has that 4 doesn't. That will change by this time next year and anyone who doesn't change is daft and a stinky doo-doo butt.
 

bustns

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ive been playing rpgs a long time, started with pallidium and 2nd ed. ive bought 4th but im not impressed with it, seems watered down, too simplified. ill stick with 3.5
 

Saskwach

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TheNecroswanson said:
I stopped at Developers playing WoW.
I have to say, if you see how it resembles WoW, then you wanted it to resemble it.
Noone can ever back that statement up either. how does it resemble World of Warcraft?
I'd say one of the ways is that now every character has powers that have arbitrary time restrictions between use that make no IC sense. Apparently rogues can only skilfully manoeuvre their enemies in combat once per encounter [http://www.thealexandrian.net/archive/archive2008-05b.html#20080514b] (these articles explain the following better than I do). I don't understand why a rogue would at first know, but then forget, how to use footwork, feints and positioning to move his enemy where he wants him. The reason for this is obvious: balancing. There is no IC explanation for why all rogues are constantly forgetful.
No RPG can ever totally rationalise how dice-rolling fits the IC actions you're doing, but on the whole DnD didn't do too badly. Apparently with 4e WotC just gave up and thought "lawl, epic powers". That's MMO territory: no decent IC reason why you can only shoot this extra-powerful shot every few seconds- why you can suddenly forget where you placed those super-effective musket balls.
Before we start hearing about how spellcasters from earlier editions are the same: what they do is magic, and magic always has "lol magic" reasoning behind it.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Actually, once you activate that ability, you can move that opponent around as you see fit.

Personally I have mixed feelings about 4e. I prefer systems that more closely integrate Character Concept and Gameplay and don't depend on simple abstraction for Roleplaying. I prefer the Roleplaying aspect of a game to be integrated effectively into the rules, rather than exempted like it is in 4e.
 

Takatchi

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In response to TheNecroswanson:
While you could probably raise several valid points about why certain game aspects are the way they are, it doesn't change the fact that I don't like them and they challenge my ideas of what was already established. That, and attacking the validity of my opinion doesn't incline me to further discuss.

In response to BloodSquirrel and Dysmachia:
I think gnomes should have been completely removed from the system after Dragonlance popularized "gully dwarves" and gnomes with 11,172,448 surnames.

As to your other points, I agree that 4E definitely streamlined a lot of areas where the system was rough. But really, I never had a problem with the mechanics themselves. Maybe I just didn't care enough and accepted them for what they were due to a lack of something to base it on; when I looked at 4th Edition, I had 3.X to base my opinion on, and seeing the two side-by-side made my mind start questioning the necessity of such change. I know that a lot of people didn't like how the mechanics ran, but they never bothered me. The introduction of "encounter" and "at-will" special abilities for every class wasn't something that inherently bothered me, but it did feel a lot like the imagination was put in the hands of the rules, and since I never sacrificed rule-coherency for imagination in 3.X, having a set outline for what my character was doing was almost up-front offensive.

I have to say paragon classes aren't something I've had experience with, but they appear to be a way to take away options. 3.5 kind of took a step back with Prestige Classes, in that they reduced the power of a lot of them but introduced tons more, some with varying degrees of "success." But that was part of the beauty; I could play a gnome bard who would raise an undead army with his music, or a fighter who specialized in throwing around mugs of beer to hurt people. I think the problem was really in the people themselves, as the player was the one who decided that taking a Prestige Class that gave a strict combat advantage over a more flavorful character build was better, not the game system. With Paragon Classes, a Fighter would always be a "Fighter," even when he was a swordmaster or a kensai. My roommate and I are in agreement that the mechanics should never define who or even what your character is; a Fighter doesn't post a message on the local town board, "Fighter LFG." He might say, "Able body skilled in use of sword and shield looking for work." 4th Edition's setup makes it much easier, and in my personal opinion preferred, to go with the former and make things as uncomplex as possible, completely removing the player's need to extrapolate from abstract mechanics to form an idea of what they mean.

In the end, though, we're still talking about what did and didn't work for us, rather than for everyone else, and I can respect that 3.5 just wasn't a cup of tea for everybody to enjoy. I don't think it's some kind of "god-system," but I do think it wasn't perfect and those imperfections honestly bothered some folk.
 

Archon

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Saskwach hints at an issue I have with D&D 4: The game no longer makes sense as a simulation. The old AD&D was at least partly simulationist. Granted, the simulation was often flawed, and the reality that was being simulated was fantastical, but there was nonetheless a focus on simulation.

For instance, in AD&D, magic-users started life as pathetic weaklings, advanced at half the rate of other classes, but eventually could be the most powerful beings in the game. This wasn't balanced, but it wasn't supposed to be. But it did simulate myth and fiction pretty well.

D&D 3 and 3.5 moved towards gamism, but D&D 4 is strictly "gamist". It consciously emulates computer RPGs, which focus on gameplay uber alles. It will gleefully ignore any constraint of plausibility or realism to enforce game balance.

Thus we have a situation where fighters can only use their best fighting techniques once per day, for no apparent reason, and where at every level, everything is perfectly balanced, between classes, and between challenges and characters. Hell, the designers of D&D 4 even advocate having scaling difficulty for fixed challenges, so that the same slime has a harder DC to cross if the crossing character is higher level. This is Oblivion's scaled-universe translated into pen-and-paper.

That's fine in so far as your goal is to just play a game. Many RPG players look for more than that. And RPGS *can* be more than that. A computer RPG has to be gamist because it can't be simulationist (the world is too complex) and it can't be narrativist (the story is too complex), but an imaginative GM can be all these things. He doesn't need to have the slime's DC scaled by the game. He can put in a different challenge instead.


(If you have no idea what I'm talking about, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamist).
 

Takatchi

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I think Saskwach and Archon, and the articles presented therein, are saying what I really feel about the gaming system in a more intelligent and less wordy way. Very interesting reads, folks, thanks for sharing!
 

runtheplacered

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TheNecroswanson said:
I stopped at Developers playing WoW.
I stopped when I realized you didn't read their whole post.

Archon said:
(If you have no idea what I'm talking about, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamist).
The paranthesis makes that link not work. here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamist
 

runtheplacered

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TheNecroswanson said:
runtheplacered said:
TheNecroswanson said:
I stopped at Developers playing WoW.
I stopped when I realized you didn't read their whole post.
Yeah, I totally did but it didn't help my counterargument to pretend like I did. Seeing as how I mentioned several of the OP's later points.
So you said it to be snide? Or... what?

A lot of your posts just come off as hostile and mean-spirited. Couldn't help but finally point one out.
 

Fl@nked

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I own both 3.5 and 4.0 and I can say I prefer 3.5 for a few reasons.

1. The heroes start as heroes. There is no more this quest, that quest, so that you can become well known and revered. If you START as a hero and just go through varying degrees of hero, doesn't that just take away a good chunk of the gaming element?

2. Realism has taken a vacation. I know that 3.5 was not a reality simulator but I like and dislike the simplification in 4.0. Want to slide down some stairs? Simple DC 15 Acrobatics check in 4.0 compared to 4 diffrent checks you would make in 3.5. But, in 3.5, they ENCOURAGED imaginitive things. In 4.0 its like "Well, I used up my trip attack for today, guess I will have to wait until tomorow" In 3.5 if you wanted to put this fool who attacked you in check, you would disarm his sorry self and then knock him prone. But, alas, you cannot do that in 4.0 if you have used your daily abilities.

3. The rules are binding the role-playing. It seems to me, at least, that 3.5 kind of gave you these vague and complicated rules and said "Make an adventure" You had to read for at least a week in the core books to know how to do that, but your imagination was the only limit. With 4.0 it says to me "Do something that involves using these really cool powers you have and killing something like I don't know... Goblins! Just don't use them too much." It implies that you should just fight something but does nothing to stimulate the role-playing element. It also seems with 4.0 that rules are now the law and by breaking them as DM will distort the space-time-D&D continuum and throw the entire game universe into jeopardy.

4. It IS the half brother, once removed, of World of Warcraft. Before 4.0 it felt you were put into an open-ended world that a game COULD NOT possibly emulate (maybe in the next few years) due to the variety of choices you would end up making. In 4.0, lets face it, you are playing pen and paper WoW. Think about it. Almost all the things you do in 4.0 could be done in WoW, with exceptions to the occasional allowed abstract choice and or differing game mechanic. I see too much relation to those two and if I want to play WoW, I will pay 15 buck a month.

But, 4.0 shines in many areas that 3.5 was lacking.

1. Playability. Before, you would have to intitiate a new D&D with a gargatuan set of rules and rules and stats. Now, it basically walks you through character creation.

2. Simplicity. No more hidden conflicting rules. Now that everything is simple, I don't get stuck during a game wondering whether I can take a move action AND drink a potion. With attacks of opportunity to look up also, forget about it.

3. Support. Yeah it seems like they dropped 3.5 like a hot potato but look at the (supposed) support for 4.0! There will be some awesome tools I can look forward to as DM for making exciting and fun adventures.

4. Simpler Concept. Before when I tried to explain D&D to a new character, they had no idea what the heck I was talking about. I was the same way, I remember. Now, you can almost always know what you are doing, where you are going, and why you are doing it. Its just faster moving and easier to go into character and STAY in character because you aren't breaking pace every other minute for something you didn't understand.

All my gripes, however, depend on what your players like, and how good you are at changing things to what they like. If you are a good DM, you can make these problems mere bumps on the road to fun. I guess my thoughts go down to this. 3.5 is the older, wiser, brother of 4.0. It lets you do what you want and gives you the tools to govern the game. 4.0 is the younger, simpler brother. It will let you do really fun things, at a limit. 4.0 hasn't learned yet how to compensate for change and so tries to keep the game together with rules that while limit the game, they keep the game running smoothly. Its a personal choice, but I choose 3.5. I play to roleplay and do fun things that can't always be governed by rules. But, I am often looking up rules because I don't know what does what. Like I said, it is a PERSONAL CHOICE

And please don't attack my comments or statements aside from a civilized arguement because, its my opinion, and by saying that I am wrong about *blank* and I don't know what I am talking about you won't convince me that I am wrong. Lets talk, not argue.

Fl@nked
 

IridRadiant

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I started playing AD&D with the gold box computer games, started seriously playing pen & paper with 3.0 when it emerged, have the 4th ed books, and have a level 70 character in WoW.

4th edition cannot play like WoW.

WoW's main tactic for regular 5 person groups: the 'tank' engages the enemy, actively preventing them from attacking the others. The healer primarily keeps the tank up. The other 3 characters are responsible for taking the enemy down in various ways before the healer runs out of magic.

4th edition is based more on assistance. There are no "attack me! attack me!" powers, that takes the monster control from the DM and automatically reassigns their ire, in the defender's arsenal. Characters with healing powers can no longer rapid cast healing spell after healing spell just to prop up a single character; they can for a while, but after the character runs out of healing surges or the healer runs out of healer powers for the day... Leaders have powers that do something bad to the adversary and usually something beneficial to an ally, at the same time. Other classes have strategic move powers. Everyone has access to a 'second wind'. None of these kind of powers are in WoW.

Myself, I still prefer 3.5. I like how they readdressed skill DC's with the diplomatic encounter scenario, but that's nothing that can't be house-ruled into 3rd ed. I'd like someone to tell me how I'm supposed to envision my 'sigilist' concept into 4th ed: Wiz3/Archivist3/Mystic Theurge2/Geometer5/Runecaster10/Arcane Devotee5 (or Archmage and Hierophant before continuing with epic Runecaster). The character used scrolls, runes, symbols, and books extensively and was designed to be the ultimate Magic-User. What she lacked in raw power, she made up in preparation and breadth of spells.

Frankly, I feel that Wizards ignored what some players were enjoying with the rampant multiclassing and focused more on level substituting and abilities that were shown to work with the 3.5 Warlock class - unlimited pea-shooter paired with 'save em until you need em' arcane powers. So instead of developing a classless system with an ala carte ability selection process, they chose to strait jacket the classes into even tighter restrictions and crystallize the most common of character roles into blatant assumptions that you will have at least one of each. It almost makes the D&D more like the card game Munchkin than WoW.
 

ReverseEngineered

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Apr 30, 2008
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First, my background. I played 2nd edition back when I was younger. It was a blast, though I found it quite complicated. The freedom was impressive. As life would have it, I played for several months, then turned my attention to vehicles and video games. I started playing D&D again about a few weeks ago, and since 4th ed was out, our group decided to pick it up.

My first impression reading the 4th Ed book was, "Wow, they really set this up well." They even had a section devoted to how to make your character, with each chapter following a step in the process. Everything a player needed to know about game mechanics was there -- players didn't need a DM guide just to figure out the basics of combat.

Half-way through making my first character, I realized this was an optimistic view. Yes, the rules were clear and didn't seem to contradict themselves, but they were spread out everywhere. There were so many "see page 219" entries that it felt like a Choose Your Own Adventure book. Some sections, like combat, classes, and races, were laid out well, but jumping from the 10 line "how to make a character" to the various details of the steps about 10 pages later was confusing as all hell (especially since I didn't realize there was more detail 10 pages later). It would have been much better if the book actually were laid out in order of making a character, where the entire first half of the book stepped through the various parts. Making you endlessly flip pages was annoying. Still, it seemed better than 2nd ed in that regard.

The choices of races and classes is something I view with mixed impressions. On the one hand, D&D has gone far too long with only elves, dwarves, and humans (and gnomes, but you can see how cliche the major three are). The addition of new races keeps things interesting. On the other hand, races have more to do with the campaign setting than with the game system; everybody using the same races in their campaign seems boring. On yet another hand, expanding races and powers is what additional books are for, so having a distinct set of starting races is a good compromise between "the usuals" and including every race imaginable in the core books.

Classes were a similar problem. The classification of defender, leader, striker, and controller, screamed MMORPG, but then again, haven't classes always been classifiable as such? At least pointing it out makes it easier for newcomers to generate a balanced party (or at least understand their strengths and weaknesses). The biggest problem I found was that you were very limited in choosing classes to fill those roles, especially if you wished to do so evenly: two defenders, two leaders, three strikers, and one controller. I was additionally put off by their admission that more classes would be available in later books. The core books aren't cheap as it is; if they aren't enough to have a satisfying campaign, they aren't worth the money. The limited class selection became especially troublesome because I didn't find the single controller (wizard) to be much of a controller. I'm playing one right now and even when following their "control" build I still find myself essentially doing multiple-target damage, just not as well as the "damage" build. Even at level three, my ability to disable or debilitate the enemy is lack-luster; the vast majority of my abilities are just damage. As an example, blasting an enemy back up to 5 squares (my Wis mod) is pointless when their speed is 6 or greater; it just means constantly moving miniatures.

I'm generally not a fan of fitting characters into single roles, such as damage, tank, or healer, which immediately puts me off the classification scheme, but to make matters worse, they don't seem to even follow it. Fighter's may be able to take damage, but their abilities don't make them particularly capable "tanks" persay. Likewise, a cleric's healing abilities are almost laughable. In the end, everybody is nearly equal at dealing damage one way or another with the only differences being the minor effects that they can apply through encounter/daily powers. Realistically, the differences in class have more to do with what armor, hitpoints, and ability bonuses you get, rather than the special abilities granted to you. The only exception is that each class benefits from specific sets of attributes, such that giving your wizard 18 Str is completely useless. That said, the classes are similar enough that a fighter with 18 Str and a rogue with 18 Dex can essentially fill the same roles; there just isn't enough variation between classes.

Tie the two together and you see a very obvious problem which the book spells out directly: races and classes go hand in hand. Wizards should be Eldarin, Warlods should be Dragonborn, and so forth. Since every race has different attribute modifiers and every class has key attributes, it only makes sense to combine them. For the sake of interest you could use non-optimal combinations, but then you would be at a disadvantage within the team.

As for another new feature: powers. Again, I'm stuck on these. On the one hand, casters were useless in other additions. Selecting spells ahead of time always left you wishing you picked a different spell and having a limited number of casts meant that you were good for a few rounds and then completely useless. Even seeing my friends play, I noticed a definite trend that the end of an encounter resulted in the party trying to protect the useless, helpless caster. I never did see enough high-level campaigns to see the "uber-caster" situation that others have mentioned, but if your character is consistently left behind in the group, why would you want to play it out long enough to become powerful?

At-will powers changed all that. Now that casters can cast something useful as many times as they want, they don't have to rely on their 1d4 staff -- with no Str or Dex modifiers to improve it -- to tap on the enemies that rip through their AC and HP-deprived flesh. Additionally, having encounter and daily powers allows you the ability to do something really sweet without allowing you to just spam it like some WoW player. For casters, it works great.

Even for melee this adds an interesting twist. Most melee I knew just rolled their basic attacks over and over again. Now they have the ability to practise some tactics, choosing whether to use attacks that might give them increased damage, combat advantage, prone, or otherwise change the flow of the battle. These things make the melee less mindless and far more interesting and useful.

On the other hand, the encounter/daily powers of a melee seem ridiculous in general. As was pointed out earlier, why can a melee only do something slightly-less-than-mundane once per battle or once per day? Things like tripping, shoving, or taunting foes doesn't take a lot of brain or brawn. It seems that classes like fighters, rogues, and other melee should be able to use the majority of their tricks whenever and as often as they choose. Sure, leave some completely heroic 3[W]+Str damage to once per encounter or once per day opportunities. Doing so only makes sense; any Herculean effort is going to be far too strenuous to be repeatable, similar to a wizard sapping his last strength to cast a fight-ending spell. This is likely merely a balance issue; something that requires reclassifying powers and how many you get without requiring fundamental changes to what powers are.

On reflection, I agree with what someone said earlier about the collection of powers limiting the roleplaying, openness of the D&D world. In computer-based RPGs like WoW, you have a fixed set of powers with a fixed set of effects. Each application of that power does the same thing in the same way. With D&D, you had a lot of flexibility to say, "I'm going to lunge at him and try to trip him." You didn't need a power to allow you to do so; it was up to the DM to consider the situation and assign appropriate skill checks to see if yoy could pull it off. With that dynamic, you weren't limited to the abilities in the book; you could do anything you could imagine! You can still do this in 4th Edition, but it seems geared away from that. Perhaps this was in the interest of simplicity. For new players, it's hard to think beyond using your basic attack repeatedly, so giving the player a set of interesting powers allows them to pick what to do from some prescribed set rather than all of the imaginations possibilities. Again, simpler for beginners but limiting to the more experienced roleplayer.

It's ironic that they limited combat abilities through applying a small number of powers, because I think they expanded out-of-combat abilities through the reduction of the number of skills. There used to be skills for everything to the point where it became a list of the specific actions you could take. Now, the condensed set of skills are abstract enough that it becomes up to the player what action he wants to try and DM merely selects a skill check to match it -- just like combat used to be.

Perhaps this shows a separation of the roleplaying and combat parts of the game. In my own campaign, I've noticed that combat seems to be very gamist, where as roleplaying seems to be quite open-ended. It seems jarring in some respects, like instantaneously changing from playing WoW to D&D, but it could also be a case of the-right-tool-for-the-right-job.

I should add kudos here for the descriptions of Bluff/Diplomacy/Insight situations. While I don't necessarily agree that such things need to be done with numbers in mind (not that a DM need enforce such a thing), at least they provide the mechanic for doing so. With judicial use of this ability (essentially, using the dice when it isn't obvious whether the NPC might take the bluff or not), it allows a certain degree of unpredictability in something that is a great tenent of roleplaying.

Overall, I see 4th Ed as an entirely new game, not terribly unlike most RPGs currently played on the computer. It bares little resemblence to previous versions of D&D in most aspects. As a new game, it fits a different market.

For those who are new to roleplaying -- perhaps familiar with computer-based RPGs -- who are used to picking from a predetermined set of actions in a more-or-less reactionary hack-and-slash manner, 4th Edition is great. It can be picked up relatively easily, it has few enough complications that players don't get lost in choices, almost any choice of class will leave you with something that will hold up well in your party, and your choice of race is conventiently almost predetermined.

Experienced roleplayers are probably better off sticking with 3.5. You have a lot more freedom and choice, a plethora of material outside of the core set, and a set of books that you've already paid a lot of money for. I don't see 4th Edition offering anything that would make existing 3.5 players want to buy all new books.

On the other hand, it does present some interesting new mechanics that could be worked into your existing campaign as house rules. When applied in the right places, the power system makes for much more playable casters and provides an alternative to the monotinous basic attacks that most melee classes use. As they are in 4th Edition, they become restrictive and bland, leaving little difference between powers and even different classes, but with modification they could be very useful.

4th Edition panders to a different audience. Some will like it, some won't. In and of itself, it's a good game, but I can understand why it's not taken well by many 3.5 Ed. veterans.


As a last note, you know what I would do to improve on the balance of simple, repetitive power vs. powerful, limited-use power that at-will/encounter/daily provide? Make larger tradeoffs in the powers' abilities. Sure, you can do 3[W] damage, but you'll be tired on the next round, so you will only get a standard action. Want to rain fire down on an area for 2d8 damage? Sure, but it's going to rattle your body to the point where you lose half of your hitpoints. Such significant tradeoffs on powerful abilities means that it isn't practical to always use them; situations may be such that felling the enemy in a last-ditch effort is worth the recovery period afterwards, whereas it would make little sense to give it your all at the start of what looks to be a long fight. Like Raistlin, I think a wizard should be able to unleash unreasonable amounts of power at the jeopardy of losing his own life, or a barbarian unleash his rage at the detrement to his own defense. Nobody says the player must do so, but he can choose to be as risky as he wishes, without artificial limits like how many times he may choose to do so. Let the penalties rule how often something may be done as opposed to artificial time limits.
 

pantsoffdanceoff

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Jun 14, 2008
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I bought the 3.0 stuff but my only problem with D&D is that I can't find anyone to play it with, mostly because every is just too awesome sauce'em to use their imagination. O well thats my problem not the games.
 

Myrddin

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Oct 19, 2006
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I have played D&D ever since I was a little kid, playing a Cleric that wielded a big mace, and my parents did all the rules lawyering of my requests, calculated the THAC0's, etc. That game was done using photocopies of the original staple-bound D&D rules.

I've played every iteration of D&D since. Every time a new version has come out, I've decried the loss of flavor, yet simultaneously welcomed the addition of clarity. AD&D had dozens, nay hundreds of charts. You literally couldn't play without referring to several charts scattered around the book per combat. 2nd Edition clarified many rules, cleaned up some charts, but you still had to refer to various rules all the time. 3rd edition went even farther, still having some charts but many of the charts could be guessed now... they were almost all variations on the theme of 'd20+modifiers'. It was a huge step forward, but again the flavor of a lot of the rules was lost.

It's this flavor that always made me prefer D&D to other systems, like Runequest or Shadowrun. The spells in Shadowrun are downright boring... 'damage body stat', 'damage mind stat', etc... really depressingly functional, even though the rules were moderately fun.

More than any prior release, 4th edition has gutted the flavor and richness of its descriptions in favor of making rules easy to follow and understand. And despite all that... I still like it. I like it a lot.

Nasty problems that have existed for over 20 years have finally been fixed. The exponential (rather than linear) power curve for wizards and clerics has been fixed; all characters have relatively equivalent utility in combat. They finally realized that DM's ignore the out-of-combat rules most of the time, because that's what role playing is for... so the rules and classes focus almost solely on combat now. They ended the mind-numbingly boring process of rolling 3-5 attacks per player, per round as you got into higher levels; now almost all players will roll one attack and one damage roll per round. They made EVERY roll into d20 + modifier vs target defense/difficulty. Combat and spellcasting is just like skill use now, eliminating saving throws as a special mechanic.

In short, 4e is a better game than 3.5e.

And that's just the player side... I'm more excited about the benefits to DMs. Designing appropriate encounters was HARD in all previous versions of D&D. Altering the level of monsters was freaking difficult. Adding character classes to monsters was arduous. Adjudicating rewards was tedious and time consuming. ALL of that has been made tremendously easier now, I love it!

A game is only as good as your DM. And ANY system can be fun if you have a good DM, a good group, and a good story. 4e goes a long way at making the tactical combat portion of the game interesting and fun, and the work of the DM easier. The less time you're dealing with the mechanical portion of the game, the more time you can having fun. And 4e is a lot better in that regard.

jm2c.
 

Sejs Cube

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Jun 16, 2008
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General impressions on 4th ed.

On the whole, everything's been simplified. Character creation is greatly streamlined, and there are some central mechanics in place that make rules referencing a lot simpler. This is a good thing.

Classes have been rebalanced with all of them following similar lines of development. The paralel between class progression and the abilities in Book of Nine Swords is clear. The difference in power arcs is gone. This is also a good thing. In previous editions, melee characters had a more or less flat climb in power, whereas casters had the skewed arc to end all skewed arcs - start weak, end world-shattering. No longer. Generally means that melee got a boost and casters got toned down; also means no more CoDzilla. Thank god.

No more having to juggle numbers calculating compound BAB, Saves, and Skill Points if you have more than one class. Letting people get creative with math was one of the things that could make 3e ... problematic. Human beings are good with math.. we've been doing it for a while now.

Paragon paths replace PrCs. You no longer have to shop around to make sure you hit your entry reqs for that class you want to get into in 8 levels. Likewise, multiclassing is done via feats rather than X levels in Class(1)/Y levels in Class(2). In some ways that's good, in others.. less so. First off, to preface: Multiclassing needs a little tweak. Not much, but as it stands it's actually less viable than just sticking with a Paragon Path. Multiclassing doesn't get you any of the base abilities (at 11, 11, and 16) that a Path would, -and- multiclassing comes with a feat opportunity cost. A suggestion off the top of my head would be to let the multiclassed character pick up one of the class features of their multi..er..class at some point. May need some playtesting to see how it'd work out, though.

Anyway - regarding Paragon Paths, multiclassing, etc. Good in that it's simplified; that seems to be the watchword of the edition. Bad in that it's more difficult to make a PC that isn't defined by their job. In 3e one of the approaches you could do quite easily was to make your character as a person, with class levels and PrCs that were really just packets of abilities that were fitting for that person to have. To wit - if you wanted to make Sir Lorgos the royal knight, it might be accomplished by having a character with a few levels in Knight, a few in Marshall, a dip into PrC(A), and a dip into PrC(B). But in the end, Sir Lorgos is Sir Lorgos.. not some guy who dropped out of Knight college to spend a summer Marshalling, then got a job in a PrC factory before being fired. That kind of homogenous, persona-centric character building isn't as easy to pull off in 4e. Though to be fair, it took 3e quite a while before it was able to reach that point as well.

It would have been nice if the DMG contained guidelines for modifying classes, etc. The skeleton is there if you look for it, but it'd be appreached if working with it had been given some page time.

I like the revision to the cosmology. Goodbye Great Wheel. Also quite fond of the inclusion of fey aspects in a capacity other than happy flitting pixie-faeries that dance in meadows. True to their roots, the fey are dangerous, they are chaotic, they are amoral, and even if something looks pretty that doesn't mean that it's nice. Frankly it probably means it's a trap of some kind.

I am very, very fond of how monster abilities are handled. There's no unspoken need to hew close to what PCs can do. Kobolds have kobold tactics that reflect their kobaldiness. In previous editions humanoid monsters were pretty much interchangable. Lead to a very Star Trek aliens = men in funny hats vibe. That's gone. One minor complaint: I would've loved for there to have been some option whereby PC members of a particular race, such as Goblins, could learn some of the abilities that goblins in the MM exhibit.