Dwarf Fortress Devs Declined Six-Figure Licensing Offer

[Andy Chalk]

Dwarf Fortress Devs Declined Six-Figure Licensing Offer

The developers of Dwarf Fortress rejected a six-figure offer for the right to use the name because they were concerned about "cheapening" the brand.

Dwarf Fortress is a remarkably deep and famously dense strategy/rogue-like, presented entirely in ASCII graphics, that was first released in an alpha state in 2006 and is now up to version 0.34.11 - which is to say, not yet fully released. It's the work of two brothers, Tarn and Zach Adams, who estimate in all seriousness that version 1.0 will probably be ready in about 20 years; and they take the project seriously enough that when an unnamed publisher came around with a six-figure bag of money, they said "no thanks."

"There was an offer to use the Dwarf Fortress name - sort of 'Dwarf Fortress: Subtitle' or whatever - they wanted to brand one of their other games. And the amount of money on the table was six figures," Tarn Adams told Gamasutra. "When you look at that you think well, there's trade-offs. Does the brand get cheapened? Are you deceiving people? As long as they're clear this is not Dwarf Fortress or whatever, and this is not Dwarf Fortress with graphics, as people call a lot of things that are coming out these days. As long as you're upfront and honest, there's not technically a problem with that - it's our brand to piss all over if we want."

Despite that rejection, Adams said that signing a deal with a publisher isn't necessarily off the table and might actually be good for the game and fans, pointing out that if they didn't have to worry about money they could spend even more time working on Dwarf Fortress. But they also run the risk of actually losing money over the long run.

"If people saw that there was this other thing out there, we considered in the worst case scenario, then the contributions from people would just dry up, and we'd be sitting with this lump sum that would not have added up to ten years' salary or whatever," he explained. "So do we want the stress of having to search for a new IP, or a new angle all of a sudden? We have some name recognition to be able to do that kind of thing perhaps, although it's a very chancy thing."

Adams also sounded dubious about the idea of putting Dwarf Fortress on Steam, saying they'd do it if there was demand from the fans but otherwise expressing little interest. "I don't know enough about it, and it's the kind of thing that, from the years of inertia, we don't have these business instincts that kick in and say, 'Yes, we need to get on that'," he said. "So it's sort of the thing where, if enough people bug us because they want Steam to track their user hours or whatever... if our current fan base wants it on there, it'd be more of the kind of thing we'd be interested in, rather than increasing our audience."

If you're not familiar with Dwarf Fortress and think you might like to be, you can find out more about it and follow the development at bay12games.com [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/].

Source: Gamasutra [http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195148/dwarf_fortress_in_2013.php]


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[TheProfessor234]

While I respect them for doing this, in the long run I feel like this was a mistake. Six figures is a lot and could cut that 20 years of dev time down. Of course, with a game like Dwarf Fortress, money might not be able to speed it up.

Though, they did what they what they wanted I doubt they will regret it.

 

[Deu Sex]

And 20 years to finish the game? Is one of those guys actually Gade Newell in disguise?

Dwarf Fortress is a deep, deep game. Almost ridiculously so. There's mechanics which allow for you to build a stone cannon that's designed to fire pressurized blood at dragons, fueled by the corpses of crushed kittens which are raised in a series of cat-breeding cells until they are ripe for use as ammunition.

 

[1337mokro]

Really this game desperately needs a graphical update and an UI tightening. Purist will shout no but really how many NEW players actually stick with this game if not actually figure out how it works before they quit?

Unless you have a bunch of spreadsheets on your lap you ain't going far enough in this game to even learn how it works.

 

[Deu Sex]

Really this game desperately needs a graphical update and an UI tightening. Purist will shout no but really how many NEW players actually stick with this game if not actually figure out how it works before they quit?

What, you mean there's people who DON'T use the tileset mods? Everyone I know who plays Dorf Fort has them downloaded. Playing any other way is torture to the eyes. And brain.

 

[1337mokro]

Really this game desperately needs a graphical update and an UI tightening. Purist will shout no but really how many NEW players actually stick with this game if not actually figure out how it works before they quit?

What, you mean there's people who DON'T use the tileset mods? Everyone I know who plays Dorf Fort has them downloaded. Playing any other way is torture to the eyes. And brain.

Which is my point, isn't it?

Everyone who ALREADY plays it or sticks around long enough to learn about them. It needs a lower entry bump into the game rather than being a gigantic hurdle. Easy to learn hard to master should be the mantra, not near impossible to learn even harder to master.

 

[Bagged Milk]

Really this game desperately needs a graphical update and an UI tightening. Purist will shout no but really how many NEW players actually stick with this game if not actually figure out how it works before they quit?

Unless you have a bunch of spreadsheets on your lap you ain't going far enough in this game to even learn how it works.

That is seriously my only concern with this game. I want to play it and I want to like it, but every time I try I give up because I can't remember what that shade of green apostrophe means compared to the very slightly different shade. I've seen multiple visualizers and tilesets and that might have helped but they're all unfinished or only made for a build of the game from years ago.

 

[AngryMongoose]

Really this game desperately needs a graphical update and an UI tightening. Purist will shout no but really how many NEW players actually stick with this game if not actually figure out how it works before they quit?

Unless you have a bunch of spreadsheets on your lap you ain't going far enough in this game to even learn how it works.

Graphical update it both varying degrees [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/List_of_user_graphics_sets] and, IMO, doesn't need.
It could, however, SERIOUSLY benefit from a UI update... when you can go through 3 different menus using 4 different control schemes... ugh...

 

[tehroc]

Joining forces with a publisher is the absolute worst thing they could do. Once you make the deal with the devil he has your soul. It will stop being Dwarf Fortress and become Dwarf Fortress Lite as they "streamline" it down to something grandma could play.

 

[tokae]

Really this game desperately needs a graphical update and an UI tightening. Purist will shout no but really how many NEW players actually stick with this game if not actually figure out how it works before they quit?

Unless you have a bunch of spreadsheets on your lap you ain't going far enough in this game to even learn how it works.

I would kinda agree, I certainly am enjoying Gnomoria alot for those exact reasons. But you also have to take into account that that is not the game DF is trying to be or become. Have you seen the insane depth of the gameplay and the workings in the generated worlds? No other game I have ever tried even comes close to DF.

But yes, not too many will stick with DF for more than a few hours or a couple of days at the most, banging their heads at the wall and then uninstalling because they couldn't figure out how to assign workloads or designate stockpiles (or making sense of the ASCII-art - NEWSFLASH: there are LOADS of completely passable graphic tile-sets on the forums). But the creators are obviously not bothered by that, because they are not trying to reach those gamers.
So your point is both valid and unnecessary at the same time.

 

[Pyrian]

No one would disagree that the UI needs a facelift...

'Cept the developers, for whom if UI updates are even on their radar, it's something they're planning on tackling around 19 years from now, or something like that.

Dwarf Fortress is going to continue to inspire great games (e.g. Minecraft) but I don't think it'll ever become a great game in its own right. That's just not what they're interested in, I guess.

 

[The Random One]

And 20 years to finish the game? Is one of those guys actually Gade Newell in disguise?

Dwarf Fortress is a deep, deep game. Almost ridiculously so. There's mechanics which allow for you to build a stone cannon that's designed to fire pressurized blood at dragons, fueled by the corpses of crushed kittens which are raised in a series of cat-breeding cells until they are ripe for use as ammunition.

Or a better way to put this:

That screenshot is what a modern version of Dwarf Fortress looks like (I don't know if it's the latest version, but it seems to be a recent one.

As you can see, it only uses ASCII graphics.

It can cause slowdown on a modern computer.

 

[1337mokro]

Really this game desperately needs a graphical update and an UI tightening. Purist will shout no but really how many NEW players actually stick with this game if not actually figure out how it works before they quit?

Unless you have a bunch of spreadsheets on your lap you ain't going far enough in this game to even learn how it works.

I would kinda agree, I certainly am enjoying Gnomoria alot for those exact reasons. But you also have to take into account that that is not the game DF is trying to be or become. Have you seen the insane depth of the gameplay and the workings in the generated worlds? No other game I have ever tried even comes close to DF.

But yes, not too many will stick with DF for more than a few hours or a couple of days at the most, banging their heads at the wall and then uninstalling because they couldn't figure out how to assign workloads or designate stockpiles (or making sense of the ASCII-art - NEWSFLASH: there are LOADS of completely passable graphic tile-sets on the forums). But the creators are obviously not bothered by that, because they are not trying to reach those gamers.
So your point is both valid and unnecessary at the same time.

The way you approach this is quite sad actually.

You create a game that is really amazing and then you segregate this to a small group of people whilst having all these other people clamoring to get in and completely snubbing them because them not "getting" the game is not their concern.

You know I actually did stick with this game and did get quite far. Guess what happened? Life demanded my unbridled attention for 6 months I came back and.... completely forgot everything. How the fuck do I stack this shit? Wait where is the menu to do this? What? Why is that menu hidden under that option? Etc. I would go on but I think you kinda get it.

I never again had the time to relearn this game it would probably take several weeks and I don't have several weeks, heck I barely have a few hours a week. So if they want to keep this UI then hey have at it, won't stop the valid complaint that it's an UI from the dark ages and clunky as all hell.

So not only do they gain people at an incredibly slow rate they also lose people from simple breaks in between gameplay.

If they want their yacht club parties they can have them deep down in their dwarf fortresses, but I would hate for this game to end up being THAT game. You know the one everyone agrees is really really deep and engaging but nobody actually bothers playing and once the people that didn't grow up with this game actually TRY playing it and just give up leaving the game to be lost to the realms of forgetfulness?

Kinda like the Ultima series. Also a very DEEP and ENGAGING game that nobody ever plays anymore.

PS: This is not a response to the devs but to your dismissive attitude of "they are not trying to reach THOSE gamers."

 

[Chessrook44]

And 20 years to finish the game? Is one of those guys actually Gade Newell in disguise?

Dwarf Fortress is a deep, deep game. Almost ridiculously so. There's mechanics which allow for you to build a stone cannon that's designed to fire pressurized blood at dragons, fueled by the corpses of crushed kittens which are raised in a series of cat-breeding cells until they are ripe for use as ammunition.

Or a better way to put this:

That screenshot is what a modern version of Dwarf Fortress looks like (I don't know if it's the latest version, but it seems to be a recent one.

As you can see, it only uses ASCII graphics.

It can cause slowdown on a modern computer.

I think I heard part of that reason is because it only ever uses one core, even on multi core computers.

I could be wrong though. Can't remember if true.

 

[mattaui]

Graphical tileset? Heresy.

Beholden to publisher terms? Blasphemy.

I always think of it like Cypher's line from the Matrix, about seeing girls in the lines of the code. Only in DF I see dwarves, goblins and mithril.

That might sound a lot less exciting to you, but YMMV.

 

[Pyrian]

As you can see, it only uses ASCII graphics.

It can cause slowdown on a modern computer.

Depth? Or inefficiency? I doubt Dwarf Fortress has any legitimate slowdowns (outside of world creation) that couldn't be eliminated with a bit of optimization. Back when I was playing, the usual frame killer was merely free flowing water; I don't know exactly what it was doing, but it was clearly exponential rather than linear, suggesting that every tile containing free flowing water was examining every other tile in the same body of water (probably for pressure calculations).

 

[tokae]

The way you approach this is quite sad actually.

You create a game that is really amazing and then you segregate this to a small group of people whilst having all these other people clamoring to get in and completely snubbing them because them not "getting" the game is not their concern.

You know I actually did stick with this game and did get quite far. Guess what happened? Life demanded my unbridled attention for 6 months I came back and.... completely forgot everything. How the fuck do I stack this shit? Wait where is the menu to do this? What? Why is that menu hidden under that option? Etc. I would go on but I think you kinda get it.

I never again had the time to relearn this game it would probably take several weeks and I don't have several weeks, heck I barely have a few hours a week. So if they want to keep this UI then hey have at it, won't stop the valid complaint that it's an UI from the dark ages and clunky as all hell.

So not only do they gain people at an incredibly slow rate they also lose people from simple breaks in between gameplay.

If they want their yacht club parties they can have them deep down in their dwarf fortresses, but I would hate for this game to end up being THAT game. You know the one everyone agrees is really really deep and engaging but nobody actually bothers playing and once the people that didn't grow up with this game actually TRY playing it and just give up leaving the game to be lost to the realms of forgetfulness?

Kinda like the Ultima series. Also a very DEEP and ENGAGING game that nobody ever plays anymore.

PS: This is not a response to the devs but to your dismissive attitude of "they are not trying to reach THOSE gamers."

My dismissive attitude? Well, yes, I am dismissive in that regard. I honestly can´t see how I could be anything else. I completely agree with everything you are saying but I kinda have to dismiss the point anyway. Seeing as how Tarn and Zach have consistently moved further and further away from anything even remotely user-friendly for seven years now.

Could it be that they just have not considered that that is a bad thing? I'm going to have to say no to that.
Could it be that they have never been approached with questions/requests/opinions vying for a more userfriendly control-system and some neat sprite art? Again, nooo. I'm actually pretty sure I myself have spoken to them about it in the past even.

The only reason I can see for them continuing to do what they do is because they don't really care about that. It's a niche-game in a niche-market. And that is sad in and of itself because it's a really remarkable game, but it's still their choice to make it so. I honestly have only approached the game as something they are making for themselves, something they themselves enjoy. And if that's what they are doing then that's fine with me.
Is the UI clunky and about as much of a challenge as Ghosts and Goblins? Indeed it is. But they themselves seem content to keep it like that.
Can the ASCII-art be a glaring neon mess after a few weeks away from it? Yupp, though it can be pretty charming in it's own way I have to say.
And who am I to argue with that?
I'm certainly not on the project, I have never been and I never will either. Hell I'm not even a paying customer since it's free. So what say do I have in those matters? Really?
(Though I sincerely hope that Toady gets better at coding soon, because it still can take me up to 30-40 minutes to generate a large world with long history and alot of wildlife. *whine*)


Now! If you consider my thoughts on this sad, then.. Feel free, because I guess it kinda is in a way then. But I can't really see it from any other point of view that makes sense to me.
If you can then, please, enlighten me.

 

[tokae]

As you can see, it only uses ASCII graphics.

It can cause slowdown on a modern computer.

Depth? Or inefficiency? I doubt Dwarf Fortress has any legitimate slowdowns (outside of world creation) that couldn't be eliminated with a bit of optimization. Back when I was playing, the usual frame killer was merely free flowing water; I don't know exactly what it was doing, but it was clearly exponential rather than linear, suggesting that every tile containing free flowing water was examining every other tile in the same body of water (probably for pressure calculations).

It's inefficiency really.. Toady's code is horribly optimized and leaks a whole lot sadly. Though if he ( or when he) ultimately decides to learn how to do it better (DISCLAIMER: I can't neither, just telling it like it is) it will take another eternity to re-write all the code..