EA Bans Users for Asking for Refunds

[pblizard]

All I can picture is some fat cat sitting in a dark meeting room, yelling at some poor office clerk - "Why isn't anyone buying spunkgargleweewee 77!!"
Poor office clerk "Well, there is no one left to buy it, they have all been banned for demanding refunds."

 

[nope321444141]

People are afraid of EA banning their account? What are they going to do? Lock us out of Origin that basically no one likes? I haven't bought a game from EA in the last three or four years and I can't be alone on that one. Not to mention anyone they ban from their system is now a paying customer of steam (if they weren't already).

I like Origin's client UI, and there Customer Support.

 

[Sargonas42]

Let me just pop in here and cut your ill-defined argument off at the knees. Fraud isn't some magical term that only applies under special conditions, Fraud is defined as the following: In criminal law, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain.

By this definition it is arguable that EA committed Fraud when it accepted a high number of preorders without purchasing proper servers in an attempt to save themselves money: They even publicly claimed this wouldn't happen, if I may take an exert from this Kotaku article from around the time Diablo III was launching:
"We've got experience from Spore and Darkspore," Katserelis said, citing other recent Maxis games. "EA is an on online company. We're definitely watching what's going on at Blizzard, and we're putting in backstops and checks to try to prevent those kind of things from happening."

So: They publicly claimed their game would be prepared at launch, and it was not ready for that launch just so they could save money on servers they might end up not using after the user base quiets down post-launch, yet they still took a high number of pre-orders.

If I may translate: They lied to people across the world about the state of their game and their readiness for launch so that they could take in extra money from purchases and save money on servers. AKA They created an intentional deception made for personal gain, visa-vie Fraud with a capital F.

Check and mate.

Several problems with this point of yours. First off, you *are* right in that Fraud applies to "Intentional Deception for Gain". The thing is, the bar for what is "Intentional" is kinda tricky. In this case, it would be really hard to explain to any reasonable entity that this scenario is intentional. Intentional would be if EA had done all of this on purpose, with no intent of ever trying to deliver the experience advertised, ever. That's not the case here. Are they are Negligent, due to poor planning on their part? Quite possibly. That would definitely not be intentional deceit however. It's pretty clear here they made a concerted effort to provide what they thought was the best they could do with the resources they had, and discovered it was, in fact, not enough and are now making every effort to correct this issue as fast as possible. One Dev in particular, according to twitter, has not been home in 3 days while working on this. Those are not the actions of fraudulent people trying to take your money and run.

Second of all, you are making an assumption that the problem is with server capacity decisions based on money saving. What if the problem was that they had enough servers, but the software they wrote was being crippled by the amount of data they were handling and routing? (Something which any experienced Ops person will tell you cannot be fixed by just throwing more hardware at it.) In that case, it has nothing to do with them lying about anything to save money and everything to do with software that was no written up to the task. Or maybe the problem is that some 3rd party they are relying on for part of their services has dropped the ball on them and left them holding the bag, but due to the complex bullsh*t of the corporate wold they are not able to point finger and are sucking it up and taking the hit for it. Or what if some group of script kiddies is bored this weekend and though they would take pot shots at EA during prime time and are DDOSing their servers? This is not something EA would openly admit since it would be both an admission of weakness in their infrastructure as well as give those people undue spotlight for their actions, which is exactly what they want. Is any of those scenarios actually the case here? Who knows. Probably not but certainly no one on this forums is in a position to make judgements either way on them and jumping to conclusions is risky.

In short, sorry but I refuse to accept your argument that what they have done is actually Fraud based simply on the *known* facts. A total mess sure, but not Faud.

 

[malestrithe]

http://kotaku.com/5989299/no-ea-wont-ban-you-on-origin-if-you-ask-for-a-refund-for-simcity

It seems like people are jumping on a bandwagon to harang the company.

 

[Ecliptica Wolf]

So much drama. EA doesn't ban users like the thread suggests, it hasn't banned anyone yet has it?

 

[vasiD]

Snip.
Check and mate.

Are they are Negligent, due to poor planning on their part? Quite possibly.

No. No. Not quite possibly, that's fucking bullshit. They have a massive AAA title that at launch can't be played by a large part of it's user base. AT THE VERY LEAST they are negligent and poor planning and to even debate that honestly shows some serious gaps in logic. How are they not negligent? How is it not poor planing to not be prepared for launch?

It's pretty clear here they made a concerted effort to provide what they thought was the best they could do with the resources they had, and discovered it was, in fact, not enough and are now making every effort to correct this issue as fast as possible.

Oh yeah, because I forgot how limited the tiny EA is, I mean I forgot this is a indie company trying to put out their first AAA title, there was no way they could have been any more prepared because they had NO experience with anything like this. OH WAIT! EA has PUBLICLY admitted that they didn't put ANY servers in the Asia region where they had a very high number of preorder, so don't feed me the bullshit company line that they did all they could. They may be working around the clock to fix it, but that doesn't give them a pass. No the only thing that would have given them the pass would have been allowing unsatisfied customers to get refunds without difficulty, period.

Second of all, you are making an assumption that the problem is with server capacity decisions based on money saving. What if the problem was that they had enough servers, but the software they wrote was being crippled by the amount of data they were handling and routing? (Something which any experienced Ops person will tell you cannot be fixed by just throwing more hardware at it.) In that case, it has nothing to do with them lying about anything to save money and everything to do with software that was no written up to the task. Or maybe the problem is that some 3rd party they are relying on for part of their services has dropped the ball on them and left them holding the bag, but due to the complex bullsh*t of the corporate wold they are not able to point finger and are sucking it up and taking the hit for it. Or what if some group of script kiddies is bored this weekend and though they would take pot shots at EA during prime time and are DDOSing their servers? This is not something EA would openly admit since it would be both an admission of weakness in their infrastructure as well as give those people undue spotlight for their actions, which is exactly what they want. Is any of those scenarios actually the case here? Who knows. Probably not but certainly no one on this forums is in a position to make judgements either way on them and jumping to conclusions is risky.

This is some bullshit buck-passage, as I said it is now publicly known that there are no Asia servers, and when it comes to who's fault that is it falls squarely on the publisher as that is one of the very few jobs they have in a game release: they are supposed to print hard copies and see to digital distribution and also ensure the game has adequate servers.

Don't try and pass around the blame to unknown third parties or hackers, that's fucking stupid. If either were the case do you think EA wouldn't say anything about it? What complex corporate bullshit are you talking about? Is it the same bullshit that kept Gearbox from throwing TimeGate under a bus a few weeks ago for Aliens? OH WAIT!!!

In short, sorry but I refuse to accept your argument that what they have done is actually Fraud based simply on the *known* facts. A total mess sure, but not Faud.

So, hopefully by this point you've realized you're wrong and the simple lack of Asian servers solidifies what I was talking about into genuine fraud (especially for that region), if not, you are in denial sir.

If that is the case I have one serious question to ask you, all of this business aside: Why in the fuck are you taking time of your day to defend this multinational corporation that has fucked over it's fans so much that it was quite literally voted the worst company in the Untied States last year?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Second of all, you are making an assumption that the problem is with server capacity decisions based on money saving.

As one of their earliest responses was to add more servers, and they have announced an intention to add still more, it seems like a fairly cogent assumption that they launched with far fewer than might have been advisable, especially given the historical precedent that they swore up and down they were aware of and had taken steps not to duplicate.

However, you are correct. This is not fraud. It is incompetence garnished with greed, but it is not fraud.

 

[WickedSkin]

That was one representative. I've had such problems with NCSoft and others. So this is not an EA exclusive behaviour, we all know this, it all ways boils down to who/how/you. Valve's "Steam" and EA's "Origin" -services is creepy stuff though. I've never tried (or needed to try) to get a refund from those. But I'm a careful customer (because I'm not an idiot).
Also adding that I'm staying well clear of anything called "GFWL" or anything "Live" (associated with Microsoft).

When talking about refunds whether it's online, on the phone OR IRL, it all boils down to;
1. WHO you are talking to
2. HOW determined you are to get a refund
3. How good YOU are at negotiating
/FACT.

 

[Atmos Duality]

COMPLETELY ON TOPIC:
When talking about refunds whether it's online, on the phone OR IRL, it's all about WHO you are talking to and HOW determined you are to get a refund. FACT.

That speaks leagues more about the state of customer service than anything.
And it's a very sad state of affairs indeed.

 

[WickedSkin]

COMPLETELY ON TOPIC:
When talking about refunds whether it's online, on the phone OR IRL, it's all about WHO you are talking to and HOW determined you are to get a refund. FACT.

That speaks leagues more about the state of customer service than anything.
And it's a very sad state of affairs indeed.

Indeed. Consumer protection/rights/laws/agreements are not there for your protection -they're there to it harder for you. How can I say that? Well anyone could easily write an essay on it, no problem, but it's easier just to look into your own experiences with those kinds of things.

CAPTCHA
old shoe

No even close to on topic. Well maybe a little with some help.

 

[Sargonas42]

If that is the case I have one serious question to ask you, all of this business aside: Why in the fuck are you taking time of your day to defend this multinational corporation that has fucked over it's fans so much that it was quite literally voted the worst company in the Untied States last year?

Honestly? You want to know why? Because for the last 10 years I have dedicated my career to making video games, something I love, for other people. 6 of those years (but not any longer) were spent at EA. Did they fuck this up? You damn well *bet* they did. Could they have done better? Yup! Do they make stupid decisions that look at the bottom line and not the consumer at times? Yup.

They, (and many other studios like 343, Gearbox, Bungie, Valve, THQ, Riot, and Blizzard) are also staffed by some great friends and colleagues of mine. These people do amazing work, they spend 40-70 hours a week of their lives voluntarily to make a video game, of all things, for you. Some of these guys have degrees in Neuroscience, Law, even Doctors and Physicists... and they choose to spend their adult life making something else for someone to play with and enjoy for a fifth of what they could make elsewhere because they love it. Shit sometimes gets in the way of that vision that they can't control individually, but at the end of the day these are gamers like you and me who could do anything they want, and what they want to do is slave away for something that by time it's done, we are so burned out we hardly even play it sometimes. We do it for you guys and then when human error (and admittedly yes, miss management, corporate industry politics/finances, shareholder greed, and sometimes just acts of god) get in the way, you guys yell doom and gloom and rant on conspiracy theories and act like EA/Activision/Blizzard/MS/Sony is housed in some evil black obelisk of doom staffed by a bunch of heartless money counters with no care what so ever for the industry.

Devs are gamers too. And when they screw up, best believe they realize it, and they want to fix it. When companies screw up damn right someone should call them out. Heck I'll be right there with you on it. But when pitch forks come out and people start a riot against ANY company, not just EA, based on sensational rumors, arm-char expert speculation, and misguided facts made up to support personal opinions, I and others like me will be there to try to set the record straight for our colleagues.

(As to the worst company in the US thing... I still think that is ridiculous. There is documented proof out there that there are companies who single handedly brought about the recession due to greed and corporate stupidity. Companies who knowingly and maliciously effed over people for billions of dollars and then took another loan from the government for billions more with no intent of paying it back because they were "too big to fail" and someone is going to try to say that EA really was the worst company in America? When EA is forced into laying off 10-20% of its staff (some who have been there for 15+ years) as a direct result of those actions? Please. Have some perspective.)

 

[II2]

I posted this in another Sim City consumer issue thread before I noticed this one. You guys know the story, but for those of you having trouble accessing the OP's article, here's an image of the transcript:

Technically, they threatened a ban for redacting/reclaiming the digital transaction via their bank or credit card after refusing a refund. They said to use this channel request refunds, but did not, in fine print, actually PROMISE any.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

They, (and many other studios like 343, Gearbox, Bungie, Valve, THQ, Riot, and Blizzard) are also staffed by some great friends and colleagues of mine. These people do amazing work, they spend 40-70 hours a week of their lives voluntarily to make a video game, of all things, for you.

What is THIS happy horseshit? They do it for a salary and because they have a passion for the work. They're not doing me a fucking favor. I PAY THEM. This is quid pro quo. Please let us not go down this "noble content provider" route. These games are not an act of charity. This is a business. They slapped a mighty fucking price tag on this game and sold it as a product. All airy fairy notions of "they're doing it for you, dawg!" go out the window at the point that money changes hands.

...act like EA/Activision/Blizzard/MS/Sony is housed in some evil black obelisk of doom staffed by a bunch of heartless money counters with no care what so ever for the industry.

Naturally organizations are staffed by human beings, but our relationship as consumers is not with those individual human beings, it is with the organization as an entity. And a publicly traded organization like EA cares about the shareholders first and foremost and everyone else not so much at all, including (quite notoriously) the health and welfare of their own employees for a period of time. EA is not a misunderstood paragon. EA is a corporation. They want to turn a buck. And they've put on quite the clown show for a great many years now while doing so. They're like a machine designed for the sole purpose of perpetually creating PR blunders. Other large software publishers don't have HALF the taint on their name that EA does. I won't pretend the hate doesn't get silly sometimes, but let's not pretend EA has done nothing to earn this black hat reputation.

(As to the worst company in the US thing... I still think that is ridiculous. There is documented proof out there that there are companies who single handedly brought about the recession due to greed and corporate stupidity. Companies who knowingly and maliciously effed over people for billions of dollars and then took another loan from the government for billions more with no intent of paying it back because they were "too big to fail" and someone is going to try to say that EA really was the worst company in America? When EA is forced into laying off 10-20% of its staff (some who have been there for 15+ years) as a direct result of those actions? Please. Have some perspective.)

Yes, that was absurd. On that, we are in agreement. Worst gaming company, maybe, although that honor rightly belongs to Hammerpoint this year. Worst company? Not even in the same ballpark. Not even in the same LEAGUE.

PS - A few posts back you essentially applauded a rambling post that said this Simcity launch was business as usual for an online game and that everyone complaining was more or less being a big whiny prat having a tantrum because the game wasn't "perfect". I will say the same thing to you that I say to Dexter. You are BIASED, sir. Your long standing relationship with the company has left you unable to be objective on this issue. The launch of this game has been a bed-shit of cosmic proportions. They do not merit the enthusiasm of your defense.

Technically, they threatened a ban for redacting/reclaiming the digital transaction via their bank or credit card after refusing a refund. They said to use this channel request refunds, but did not, in fine print, actually PROMISE any.

We've all seen that, it's been making the rounds for days. The rep handled it terribly, but a ban is an automatic consequence of a charge back on any digital distribution platform. As TB said, the charge back is the nuclear deterrent of customer/vendor relations. You don't break it out unless you intend to go to war.

 

[Galen Marek]

Then later in the thread we have evidence that EA will hand out a refund if you ask them and don't go to your bank first trying to get a charge back.

wat?

My question is, where was the first guy from? Was he American in America?
Because the second bloke was an Australian in Australia it would seem and our laws/policies regarding these situation are, if I'm not mistaken, different to those of America.

If that is the case, your comparing Apples with Oranges.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Large companies never give agency to people who pick up the phones, and you're never going to get anywhere because they can't do anything. All they can do is parrot the official stance. I think EA should definitely be giving refunds because the product does not work as advertised, but I believe the threat of banning was in response to the threat of bank-enforced refund, which would be fair enough.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'll never be a part of the Rabble Rabble Refund Gang. Patience is a virtue. With calls for refunds only a day or two after an online launch, it's pretty sad how many people aren't virtuous.

You know what else is a virtue? Honesty. The folks producing these products are virtue free.

You know what really should be a virtue? Holding up to your obligations. Apparently, not doing that is okay, though, as you attack the virture of only the people who want money back for a defective (yes, it's defective) product.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

He was being a bastard about it. The staff member clearly stated its their policy and he can't. The idiot decided to keep going on about it.
If I was the staff member, even if I could have done something I wouldn't have.

 

[Laughing Man]

Quite a lot of opinion on something that seems quite simple.

The guy requested a refund, EA should have given it to him but for some reason the rep on the other end decided not to go ahead and do it, why we don't know. The guy trying to get the refund then proceed to make a very stupid threat of getting a refund via his bank, AND IT WAS A THREAT so the EA rep said that if did this he would get banned, which I am pretty sure is common policy for any of the DD services out there including the much vaunted Steam. The guy then decided that he was a total winner and proceeded to act like a douche bag.

All he had to do was log off, wait an hour and then try to get a refund from another rep and chances are he would have gotten one.

As for the rest of it, shock horror internets in uproar over balls up in new release that requires always on DRM and it isn't working... move on nothing to see here folks!

 

[Rattja]

I'll just pop this one in here too I guess

http://static.gamer.no/images/13/1382/138205/61bbe87891f267ba9e6ccbca4dfe2fa2_easupport2_1306x606.f.png

Regardless if they want to give refunds or not, it is (as the guy says) in direct conflict with our laws.

But my biggest problem here is their attitude, this is no way to treat your costumers =/